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Old August 3, 2020, 12:34 AM   #51
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Agree, but the argument carried far enough ends up at a pea shooter.
Agreed, and if you carry it far enough in the other direction, it ends up with nuclear weapons.

Both are on the far side of ridiculous.

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we all know the .300 Whisper will not do what the .30-378 Wby will do.
If the question is "will it kill an elk?" The answer is yes.

Beyond that, you're talking specifics and comparing abilities in differing situations. There is no "deader" than dead. How much work and effort the hunter has to do in order to make that elk dead varies considerably with the tool used. Pointed stick, bow& arrow, muzzle loader, light, medium, heavy rifle handgun, rock, knife, or any other tool you use, all can, and have killed elk. The difference is the effort needed and what the range of optimal conditions is.

Nobody needs a powerful magnum rifle to kill an elk, but they sure give you a lot more options than other tools.
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Old August 3, 2020, 04:51 PM   #52
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Dead is dead. How quickly incapacitation occurs is what I am concerned with.
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Old August 3, 2020, 05:56 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by reynolds357
Dead is dead. How quickly incapacitation occurs is what I am concerned with.
That has more to do with shot placement and bullet used than amount of powder burned. Regardless of cartridge used you have to understand the limitations and or abilities of their cartridge of choice.
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Old August 3, 2020, 06:24 PM   #54
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That has more to do with shot placement and bullet used than amount of powder burned. Regardless of cartridge used you have to understand the limitations and or abilities of their cartridge of choice.
Shot placement is a given. Deer dont go down and stay if you shoot them in the hoof. I use proper bullet for application. Powder burned has everything to do with incapacitation. I have shot deer with 7-30 Waters and with 7 Rum. No comparison in the two. I have shot deer with a .30-30 and with a .30/338 Lapua. No comparison.
I have shot deer with a 6.5x55 and a 6.5 x 300 Wby. Again, no comparison.
All well placed shots. All bullets matched to the game and velocity fired at.
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Old August 3, 2020, 10:11 PM   #55
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These "discussions" almost always end up being more about opinion and personal preference than answering the question posed in the beginning. Usually interesting, seldom useful.
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Old August 4, 2020, 01:34 AM   #56
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These "discussions" almost always end up being more about opinion and personal preference than answering the question posed in the beginning.
The OP asked for opinions.

I'd say he got some.
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Old August 4, 2020, 12:41 PM   #57
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Most people rarely shoot enough to become great shots, everyone thinks they are however even if the last time they pulled trigger on their trusty elk rifle was last year the week before the season like they always do. Shooting is a perishable skill, natural shooters are a myth, firearms haven't been around all that long in human history.
The good news is elk are big targets, if your any kind of shot at all you can probably hit one inside 100yds, last time I read the numbers from CPW they said the average elk was shot at 70yds, overall success rates were about 14%.
It's just as easy to jerk the trigger or make some other mistake shooting a 7-08 as it is to using a 7mag. Contrary to what people say on the internet a bad shot with a magnum is better than a bad shot with non-magnum. the animal is wounded in both cases but the shock of a high velocity bullet may buy you a couple of seconds for a follow up shot.
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Old August 4, 2020, 01:17 PM   #58
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Most people rarely shoot enough to become great shots... It's just as easy to jerk the trigger or make some other mistake shooting a 7-08 as it is to using a 7mag. Contrary to what people say on the internet a bad shot with a magnum is better than a bad shot with non-magnum. the animal is wounded in both cases but the shock of a high velocity bullet may buy you a couple of seconds for a follow up shot.
If I may make a minor counter point...

Since we seem to be talking about shooters at large rather than individual examples, I think it's important to note that those who practice tend to do better than those who don't, and those who practice a lot tend to do better than those who practice a little...

I live in Virginia where the whitetail deer are the vast majority of our "large game." In most counties, shooting a deer 200 lbs or more is a big deal. So my 7-08 is more than sufficient. It is also the lightest shooting cartridge I've ever hunted with. It's extremely comfortable to shoot, so I've also practiced with it drastically more than I ever practiced with the 30-06, the 300 Win mag, or the 7mm mag.

So I'm more comfortable shooting it, and I'm more familiar with what it will and won't do. As such, I am better equipped hunting deer or elk with it than I would be with something that makes me angry after 5-10 shots of practice. (I could also add that those who reload, and are on a budget, can afford to practice more with something that doesn't use magnum level consumables.)

I'm not disputing that magnums do more damage (at range), that is a given. But I don't thing their destructive advantage trumps the other advantages to be found in other factors.
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Old August 4, 2020, 01:32 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by reynolds357
Shot placement is a given. Deer dont go down and stay if you shoot them in the hoof. I use proper bullet for application. Powder burned has everything to do with incapacitation.
I've seen animals go down like the earth reached up and slapped them with tiny cartridges. I've also seen them make a death dash with lungs hanging out the exit wound, much farther than you'd imagine from much larger cartridges. However, I never said that a smaller cartridge hits as hard as a much larger one.

My point all along is the 7-08 is an adequate elk (or deer) cartridge, not the perfect one. IMO there is no perfect elk cartridge, and if we'd stop looking for one and just go use what we have we'd all probably be more successful elk hunters. I wasted a lot of money and time trying to pair the perfect cartridge for the game I was pursuing. Which I've decided in recent years trying to do is the definition of insanity as well.

So if you're using a relatively common idea of using 1500 lb-ft of energy to kill elk, then the 7-08 is effectively a 375 yard rifle with a 140 bullet. That means the if you use the 7mm RM with the same energy requirement and bullet you've effectively extended the usable range by about 175 yards. Say you're a hunter that just wants 1800 fps minimum impact velocity to make sure your bullet expands properly, now you've extended the effective range of the 7mm-08 to roughly 650 yards, but the 7mm RM with the same bullet only gets your an extra 175 yards again. Pretty much you can pick any number you want between the two using the same 140 grain bullet and it only equals 175 yard head start for the 7mm RM.

Are you going to have to pass on some shots using a 7mm-08 vs. using a larger cartridge? Absolutely, but knowing which shots you can take and knowing when to pass is also part of being a mature hunter. However, just because you're using a larger cartridge doesn't mean you can take any shot presented as well.
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File Type: pdf Ballistic Calculators - 7-08 - Copy.pdf (327.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: pdf Ballistic Calculators - 7mm RM.pdf (344.5 KB, 0 views)
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Old August 4, 2020, 02:08 PM   #60
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However, just because you're using a larger cartridge doesn't mean you can take any shot presented as well.
This is something that sadly, too many people don't recognize. Just because you have a rifle that has the energy to take game at 600yards doesn't mean you can, or should shoot at game that far away.

I've always been in agreement with the old school gun writer (though I forget which one it was) who said that if you ever shoot a big game animal at more than 300 yards, you should have to write yourself a letter, longhand, in triplicate (no carbon paper) explaining exactly WHY you HAD to take that shot.

Some will defend taking foolishly long shots with "I'm a good shot" or "the rifle will do it", or often "I couldn't get any closer".

TO which I ask, did you even try to get closer??

Too many people focus too much only on shooting when they should focus more on hunting. (and by hunting I mean stalking and getting close enough to the game animal to be within the easily usable range of their weapon to becertain of a humane kill.)
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Old August 4, 2020, 02:42 PM   #61
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This is something that sadly, too many people don't recognize. Just because you have a rifle that has the energy to take game at 600yards doesn't mean you can, or should shoot at game that far away.

I've always been in agreement with the old school gun writer (though I forget which one it was) who said that if you ever shoot a big game animal at more than 300 yards, you should have to write yourself a letter, longhand, in triplicate (no carbon paper) explaining exactly WHY you HAD to take that shot.

Some will defend taking foolishly long shots with "I'm a good shot" or "the rifle will do it", or often "I couldn't get any closer".

TO which I ask, did you even try to get closer??

Too many people focus too much only on shooting when they should focus more on hunting. (and by hunting I mean stalking and getting close enough to the game animal to be within the easily usable range of their weapon to becertain of a humane kill.)
Why should I be limited by someones opinion of how far I should shoot. The last deer I missed or lost was in the 1980's. Most deer I shoot are over 400 yards. My longest is 760 laser ranged. People I hunt with miss deer at under 100 yards. Am I irresponsible or are they?
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Old August 4, 2020, 05:25 PM   #62
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I shot this little buck a couple of years ago after he licked the rung on my treestand, is that close enough? Btw, I jack the poundage up as high as I can and still draw the bow because I want the arrow to go completely through every time just like a bullet should, makes blood trails much shorter, use enough gun or bow.
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Old August 5, 2020, 10:49 AM   #63
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Nice--I have a carbon knight. Somebody did a study on arrows and came to the conclusion that as long as the range is good you don't need to crank the draw up--mine is set at about 50 lbs.
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Old August 5, 2020, 11:45 AM   #64
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I have my Diamond set at 60lbs, been trying to get a cow elk with it but I hunt a small property where it's hard to catch them on if your working everyday.
Just like rifles you can kill deer and elk with very light poundage bows or small guns if everything is perfect, Murphy has a way with showing up at all the wrong times however. I wouldn't consider a 50lb bow as light weight especially a compound, you should be able to shoot through any undulate with a good broadhead at reasonable distances.
I use one piece Montec G5 carbon broadheads because I bought into the expandable fad when they came out, one hit on a big mule deer shoulder blade convinced me they might work flawlessly on perfect behind the shoulder shots but can come apart when hitting bone. I have what's left of that expandable somewhere around here, there were pieces of it scattered everywhere in the meat. The butcher found most of them and wasn't happy about it.

Is a Bowtech Carbon Knight the same as the Diamond SB1?, they look the alot alike, if I'm not mistaken Diamond is made by Bowtech, their economy line.

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Old August 6, 2020, 04:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by taylorce1 View Post
I've seen animals go down like the earth reached up and slapped them with tiny cartridges. I've also seen them make a death dash with lungs hanging out the exit wound, much farther than you'd imagine from much larger cartridges. However, I never said that a smaller cartridge hits as hard as a much larger one.

My point all along is the 7-08 is an adequate elk (or deer) cartridge, not the perfect one. IMO there is no perfect elk cartridge, and if we'd stop looking for one and just go use what we have we'd all probably be more successful elk hunters. I wasted a lot of money and time trying to pair the perfect cartridge for the game I was pursuing. Which I've decided in recent years trying to do is the definition of insanity as well.

So if you're using a relatively common idea of using 1500 lb-ft of energy to kill elk, then the 7-08 is effectively a 375 yard rifle with a 140 bullet. That means the if you use the 7mm RM with the same energy requirement and bullet you've effectively extended the usable range by about 175 yards. Say you're a hunter that just wants 1800 fps minimum impact velocity to make sure your bullet expands properly, now you've extended the effective range of the 7mm-08 to roughly 650 yards, but the 7mm RM with the same bullet only gets your an extra 175 yards again. Pretty much you can pick any number you want between the two using the same 140 grain bullet and it only equals 175 yard head start for the 7mm RM.

Are you going to have to pass on some shots using a 7mm-08 vs. using a larger cartridge? Absolutely, but knowing which shots you can take and knowing when to pass is also part of being a mature hunter. However, just because you're using a larger cartridge doesn't mean you can take any shot presented as well.
Super post. let me add one thing. I have never ever in my entire life seen a shot I had to take! Never have been charged by a dangerous animal!
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Old August 6, 2020, 06:06 PM   #66
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If I may make a minor counter point...

Since we seem to be talking about shooters at large rather than individual examples, I think it's important to note that those who practice tend to do better than those who don't, and those who practice a lot tend to do better than those who practice a little...

I live in Virginia where the whitetail deer are the vast majority of our "large game." In most counties, shooting a deer 200 lbs or more is a big deal. So my 7-08 is more than sufficient. It is also the lightest shooting cartridge I've ever hunted with. It's extremely comfortable to shoot, so I've also practiced with it drastically more than I ever practiced with the 30-06, the 300 Win mag, or the 7mm mag.

So I'm more comfortable shooting it, and I'm more familiar with what it will and won't do. As such, I am better equipped hunting deer or elk with it than I would be with something that makes me angry after 5-10 shots of practice. (I could also add that those who reload, and are on a budget, can afford to practice more with something that doesn't use magnum level consumables.)

I'm not disputing that magnums do more damage (at range), that is a given. But I don't thing their destructive advantage trumps the other advantages to be found in other factors.
You make some good points however as to practice I don't know a single hunter who practices with their big game rifle enough to be a really good shot, not one and I know a lot because of my job. I'm sure there are a few but you would have to have your own personal range and have the time, money and discipline to practice weekly. Normal hunters just don't do that including myself, what lots of people who want to be very good shots do is shoot an air rifle every day or shoot 22lr on the weekends. When your practicing with those gun it really doesn't matter how hard your big game rifle kicks.
Whenever I'm taking someone on a big game hunt I tell them to dry fire everyday from a bi-pod or whatever portable rest they carry for a couple of weeks before going on the hunt, that makes a huge difference.
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Old August 7, 2020, 12:45 PM   #67
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You make some good points however as to practice I don't know a single hunter who practices with their big game rifle enough to be a really good shot, not one and I know a lot because of my job. I'm sure there are a few but you would have to have your own personal range and have the time, money and discipline to practice weekly. Normal hunters just don't do that including myself, what lots of people who want to be very good shots do is shoot an air rifle every day or shoot 22lr on the weekends. When your practicing with those gun it really doesn't matter how hard your big game rifle kicks.
Whenever I'm taking someone on a big game hunt I tell them to dry fire everyday from a bi-pod or whatever portable rest they carry for a couple of weeks before going on the hunt, that makes a huge difference.
I don't disagree with your assessment, but I absolutely disagree that it's an acceptable standard. If I am going to use a weapon to take a life, even an animal life, I personally feel obligated to take the necessary measures to be 100% confident in my ability to take the shots I choose. To me, that means practicing with gun I am going to use at the ranges I am going to be using it. Yes, mechanics of shooting should be honed to a razor's edge, but until I have shot X rifle at 400 yards, 600 yards, 800 yards, etc... until I know, through experience, how it drops, how it bucks the wind (or doesn't), I'm not going to take a shot at an animal at that distance.
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Old August 7, 2020, 02:07 PM   #68
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I don't disagree with your assessment, but I absolutely disagree that it's an acceptable standard. If I am going to use a weapon to take a life, even an animal life, I personally feel obligated to take the necessary measures to be 100% confident in my ability to take the shots I choose. To me, that means practicing with gun I am going to use at the ranges I am going to be using it. Yes, mechanics of shooting should be honed to a razor's edge, but until I have shot X rifle at 400 yards, 600 yards, 800 yards, etc... until I know, through experience, how it drops, how it bucks the wind (or doesn't), I'm not going to take a shot at an animal at that distance.
I don't like shooting much past 300yds with a rifle at live game and 7-08 can be sighted in with a maximum point blank range of 340yds so you can hold in the center of an animal to that range.
I don't know anyone personally that shoots at unwounded game much past 300yds, a real 300yds that is measured with a laser range finder.
I've met plenty of people who thought actual distances of 2-3-4-500 meters were double those distances.
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Old August 11, 2020, 03:02 PM   #69
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Over the years I've used the .270, 280, 30-06, .300 Win. Mag. and the .35 Whelen on various elk hunts. Never got one so far with t e .270 or .280 but did just fine with the others. Tae only elk lost was with the .300 Win. Mag., not because of a bad shot but because when I went back to my vehicle about a mile away to get my wife to help me gut the elk, a couple of low lives cut my elk in half and we saw them as they drove off on their ATVs. That elk was a one shot kill BTW. Same with the 30-06. However, when I tried the .35 Whelen, results were awesome. Six elk with six shots over the years I hunted. The few that were not dead were so incapacitated that they were unable to get up.
But we're talking the 7-08 for elk. On January second this year I was in a motor vehicle accident that put me in hospital just four days before I was scheduled to leave for my elk hunt. I was planning to take three rifles for the hunt. A 7x57 with loads equal to the 7-08, a .280 Rem. that hasn't been blooded yet and my ever faithful .35 Whelen. Which was to be used depended on the conditions during the hunt.
The 7x57 ran 150 gr. Nosler Partitions at 2700 FPS, the .280 the 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam (old two core version) at 2910 FPS and the .35 with the 225 gr. TSX at 2710 FPS. I have perfect confidence in all three rifles to at least 300 yards and 350 for sure with the Whelen.
I see no reason why a 7-08 with a top load with the 150 gr. Nosler Accubond or Partiton would not work just fine within it's limitations.
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Old August 11, 2020, 03:17 PM   #70
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Over the years I've used the .270, 280, 30-06, .300 Win. Mag. and the .35 Whelen on various elk hunts. Never got one so far with t e .270 or .280 but did just fine with the others. Tae only elk lost was with the .300 Win. Mag., not because of a bad shot but because when I went back to my vehicle about a mile away to get my wife to help me gut the elk, a couple of low lives cut my elk in half and we saw them as they drove off on their ATVs. That elk was a one shot kill BTW. Same with the 30-06. However, when I tried the .35 Whelen, results were awesome. Six elk with six shots over the years I hunted. The few that were not dead were so incapacitated that they were unable to get up.
But we're talking the 7-08 for elk. On January second this year I was in a motor vehicle accident that put me in hospital just four days before I was scheduled to leave for my elk hunt. I was planning to take three rifles for the hunt. A 7x57 with loads equal to the 7-08, a .280 Rem. that hasn't been blooded yet and my ever faithful .35 Whelen. Which was to be used depended on the conditions during the hunt.
The 7x57 ran 150 gr. Nosler Partitions at 2700 FPS, the .280 the 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam (old two core version) at 2910 FPS and the .35 with the 225 gr. TSX at 2710 FPS. I have perfect confidence in all three rifles to at least 300 yards and 350 for sure with the Whelen.
I see no reason why a 7-08 with a top load with the 150 gr. Nosler Accubond or Partiton would not work just fine within it's limitations.
Paul B.
And I agree with your last statement Paul, I'm sure a 7-08 will work within it's limitations but why set yourself up with limitations regarding firearm choice before ever leaving your house, elk hunting is pretty demanding physically and can be expensive as well.
You wouldn't take your car elk hunting because it gets better gas mileage than your truck and is easier to drive.
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Old August 16, 2020, 05:01 PM   #71
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Komojo Bell OI believe it was shot hundreds of ELEPHANT w/ 303..

Difference w/ him and your friend-distance. He shot the big bruisers at 10 yards, your friend wants to shoot elk at 300-400+ yards.
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Old August 16, 2020, 09:35 PM   #72
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That elephant hunter was Karamojo Bell, probably the most famous elephant hunter ever! I haven't given much thought to using a 7-08 for elk. However, I have taken to two 5 x 5 bull elk and the larger one is on my wall (not the whole elk of course!): 2nd Edit: I shot both elk with a .300 Win. Mag.
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Old August 16, 2020, 11:46 PM   #73
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What is amusing is how many people wholeheartedly endorse a deer cartridge but when asked what they use more often than not they're using something bigger sometimes a significantly larger cartridge.
"of yea that deer cartridge is fantastic but I use a 300 {fill in the blank} cannon myself because well I'm a real shooter and can handle recoil being an expert elk hunter and all"
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Old August 17, 2020, 08:53 AM   #74
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Komojo Bell OI believe it was shot hundreds of ELEPHANT w/ 303..

Difference w/ him and your friend-distance. He shot the big bruisers at 10 yards, your friend wants to shoot elk at 300-400+ yards.
Karamojo's favorite rifle was his 275 Rigby - we know it better as a 7x57 Mauser. Since most factory 7x57s are loaded light for all of the old rifles, the 7-08 would be fine for elk.
Know YOUR skill level as well as the capability of the rifle. For ME in MY model 7, that would mean a 140, 150, or 160 Nosler Partition for elk and a range of no more than 300 yards - but that's for my capabilities with my rifle.
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Old August 17, 2020, 09:01 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Double K
What is amusing is how many people wholeheartedly endorse a deer cartridge but when asked what they use more often than not they're using something bigger sometimes a significantly larger cartridge.
"of yea that deer cartridge is fantastic but I use a 300 {fill in the blank} cannon myself because well I'm a real shooter and can handle recoil being an expert elk hunter and all"
Really, just give the topic a break. We all understand where you're coming from with your opinion. Not everyone agrees with you and let us just leave it at that. You don't have the corner on the market of elk hunting experience.

You've already proven what kind of shooter and hunter you are.

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I didn't have buck tag but my wife did, we saw bucks we'd never seen before at my place, mid-morning my wife shot a buck three times with her 7-08 and when he finally made it to fence and looked like he might jump it I gave one with my 7 short mag and dropped him.
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Originally Posted by Old Roper
Double K. Since you live Co we have good game law, You can't kill someone game. It's felony for killing someone else's game and it's called Party Hunting.

Great hunter you arre.
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Originally Posted by Double K
I had what's called a like license, perfectly legal to kill an already mortally wounded animal to prevent loss.
And I appreciate your compliment, I am a great hunter and shot,
First you state you didn't have a buck tag, then you say you had a like license. What license was that? Either you had a buck tag or you didn't, there is no such thing as a like license in rifle seasons. So did you put your tag on that deer? If you had a "like license" that buck became yours and not your wife's when you dropped it. Tagging game you shot with someone else's tag is illegal in CO and as Old Roper pointed out "Party Hunting" (not listed as a felony).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Big Game hunting brochure, page 15, illegal activities
23. Party hunt (i.e. harvest someone else’s game or let someone harvest yours).
Is your backside cold from letting it hang out so much?
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