August 25, 2018, 10:55 AM | #1 |
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444 Marlin accuracy
Hello everyone, first time poster here. Here's my situation:
I bought a JM stamped 444 Marlin micro-groove barrel. It came with a tasco scope and shoot-thru kwikee sites. I replaced it with a Leupold VX-1 last fall, shot it at 50 yards, and was dead-on in 3 shots! Something nagged at me though to shoot the gun at 100-150. Glad I did. At 100yds, I couldn't even hit the target! The scope ran out of elevation (or so I thought) before I could bring the 18" high POI black down. Also went through nearly $100 in 444 ammo before figuring out that the Leupold was defective, as the elevation had stopped working. Sorry, little long winded. Do you think my barrel is defective, from the factory off-center and aiming way too high? How could I be hitting the bull at 50 and missing an 11x7 at 100 (also, need to mention, when I finally DID hit the target 18"-22" high, the bullets showed no sign of key-hole) Thanks for any help! Scope is on its way back to Leupold now FYI |
August 25, 2018, 11:02 AM | #2 |
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I should also add, I bought a bore-sight - accuracy did not improve. The ammo I've used has been hand loaded 300 great XTPs and Hornady Superformance. I tried leverevolution and it was terrible, no key holes but huge patterns
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August 25, 2018, 11:07 AM | #3 |
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Have you tried sighting in with just iron sights? If you get reasonable accuracy with irons then maybe it is your scope. Are you shooting off sandbags? Resting the gun on the same spot everytime?
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August 25, 2018, 12:54 PM | #4 |
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Wait for the scope to get back from Leupold, and test again.
And, preferably, ditch those see-through rings for something shorter. My suspicion is that the scope height, combined with an initial sight-in with the 300 gr XTPs at 50 yd, resulted in a notably higher impact with the 265 gr Superformance ammo at 100(+) yd. I haven't run the math to see if physics would agree, but that's what my gut says. (I would have to make baseless assumptions about your XTP load, and I don't even know if you did actually use that for sight-in.) I doubt the barrel is 'canted' (or 'droopy' as the Marlin guys like to say). It is possible if it's a 2010+ rifle; but no 444s got Micro-Groove rifling after '98. What are the first two digits of the serial number? (...Trying to rule out a barrel change here.)
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August 25, 2018, 01:04 PM | #5 |
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"...a bore-sight - accuracy did not improve..." Bore sighters don't have anything to do with accuracy. They just get you on paper faster.
"...hand loaded..." A worked up load or just one that was picked? Difficult to work up a load with a scope that's not mounted correctly. "...the Leupold was defective...barrel is defective..." Far more likely to be the scope mounts and poor ammo than either of those. See through rings put scopes far too high and I'm guessing the bases are not a matched set. Like Ruga Booga says, how you shot matters a bunch too. If you're not shooting off a solid rest, you won't be accurate. Also like Ruga Booga says, have you shot it with irons? "...$100 in 444..." Isn't hard to do at $50ish per 20.
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August 25, 2018, 01:57 PM | #6 |
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Early Marlin 444 rifle barrels had 1 in 38 twist, as they were designed to shoot the original factory loads with the 240 grain bullet. Hornady released a 265 grain flat nose bullet that was deemed to be the longest bullet that would reliably stabilize with the 1 in 38 twist. Sometime later Marlin changed the 444 rifling to 1 in 20 or so, to better stabilize the longer bullets that were becoming more popular. Do you know what the twist rate of your rifle is? Should be easy to check with a patch on your cleaning rod, a piece of tape and a ruler. If it's 1 in 38 inch, it might be contributing to the problems you are seeing at 100 yards.
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August 25, 2018, 06:19 PM | #7 |
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Thanks for the replies. I realized now that I should've also put, I bought a DNZ one piece scope base/rings combo - the kwikee shoot throughs are gone. And the sighting in was with the DNZ combo. Althiugh early sighting in with the gun show great accuracy with the kwikee and 300gr XTPs.
The 300 grainers shot about 20" high, the 265 Superformance were 18"-19" high at 100 yards. The model year is 92 or 94 - so definitely a 1-38" twist. Sorry, should've mentioned all that. No sandbags, but repeated 50 yard groups with a hopps gun vice. Honestly, shooting irons, I have a hard time hitting the target consistently at 50. Seems to shoot high a lot. I definitely need to get on some sand bags, as all iron shooting was off hand |
August 25, 2018, 09:43 PM | #8 |
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There's probably nothing wrong with the barrel alignment.
It could be a crown issue, though. I'd still wait for the Leupold to come back, and retest before throwing more money at it.
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August 26, 2018, 10:47 AM | #9 |
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Your post does not mention work with 240s (which the gun was designed for), nor does it discuss the overall accuracy of the rifle. Which is where I would start.
Reads like a lot going on at the same time. Sometimes, 'less is more'. If the rig was handed to me with dies and gear for working a load. I would do all my iron sight load testing at 50 yards with 240 gr jacketed bullets to get a handle on repeated accuracy potential. I would be wearing my recoil pad for all testing with the gun in an adjustable solid front rest with a rear bag for the toe. After selecting the best of the 240s at 50 yards, I'd throw a scope with a known history on it of 6x or better to see accuracy at 50 yards before moving to 100. After zeroing the 240s at 100 -to a selected elevation - I would start messing with the 265s at both 50 and 100 and then step up to the 300 grainers. After final selection of the load I was going to use in the rig, I would mount and sight in the scope I was going to keep on it (it would be a 3x Leupold for me) Not attempting to be preachy, it is just how I would go about it. Welcome to the forum, JT
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August 26, 2018, 11:43 AM | #10 |
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i bought one of those 444ss rifles NEW in 1972,,,put red field JR base and rings on it with a redfield 2-7,,wide view,,,the TV screen looking scope,,for those that dont remember
that stuff has been on the rifle since i started with it,,,,im sure it will still produce the 1MOA it always has it is retired now like the owner,,,but in the day when it was getting used a lot it really liked the hornady 265gr bullet over a charge of IMR4198,, i will tell you when you get her cranked up,,,she will get your attention when you touch her off,,,,lol,,but it is a definite killer,,,dont think i have ever recovered a bullet with this one fine accurate old rifle,,,with a punch my .02 ocharry
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August 26, 2018, 12:53 PM | #11 |
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"...Seems to shoot high a lot..." That could be the Hoppe's vice is too hard. Put a sand bag on it. That can be cat litter, rice, oat meal or actual sand.
"...definitely a 1-38" twist..." Late model .444's have 1 in 20. Check it with a cleaning rod and a Sharpie. Solvented jag on rod and into the muzzle(better from the chamber, but you can't with a lever action). Mark the top of the barrel end and at the handle end. Push the rod through the barrel for one complete turn of the hand end dot and mark the muzzle end again. The distance between the dots is the twist. Easier to do than type.
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August 26, 2018, 02:27 PM | #12 |
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There's no need for cleaning rod twist rate checks. ALL 444 Micro-Groove barrels are 1:38" twist.
And ALL Model 444 Micro-Groove barrels say 'Micro-Groove' in the roll stamp. (Generally between the model and the 'caliber'.) I wouldn't worry about 240 gr bullets, either, especially if you don't plan to use any. Hornady 265s* shoot great, and are WELL within the limits of the 1:38" twist - particularly if shooting the Superformance load. *In the world of .444 Marlin, the Hornady 265 gr FP, regardless of twist rate, is considered the best all-around bullet, period. MG barrels only start to have issues with stability if firing light loads, cut down to lengths that prevent 'standard' velocities from being achieved, or when shooting 300+ gr bullets at less than about 1,850-2,000 fps (depending upon the particular barrel). But, again, I don't think that matters here. If he had stability issues with the 300s, he should have seen it at 50 yards. This is an elevation issue, in my opinion, not a stability issue.
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August 26, 2018, 03:01 PM | #13 |
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I agree with Franken....
i too think the problems you are seeing are from the mount and rings these are pretty heavy in the recoil dept....I think you want the scope as low as you can get it and as solid and the hornady 265fp is a winner in these guns,,,, dont know about the leverevolution stuff..that flat point will get it done,,,, IIRC it was designed for this chambering....because the pistol bullets couldnt hang....lol ocharry
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August 26, 2018, 07:22 PM | #14 |
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It actually says on the barrel "mod 444ss micro-groove barrel"
The 1-20 twist is Ballard. The micro groove is 1-38 |
August 27, 2018, 07:35 PM | #15 |
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Would jamming be a sign of accuracy problems? (Just throwing out ideas here) I had a catastrophic jam last November/December. Live round stuck in the throat after finally getting the chamber open. The Leverevolution stuff sometimes jams, and sometimes the handloads do as well. Could that be a sign of a throat issue?
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August 27, 2018, 09:25 PM | #16 |
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Yes, it could.
.444 Marlin has an extremely short throat, to begin with (just ~0.048" if I remember correctly), since it was initially designed around handgun bullet shapes. Any further complications (such as chambering with a broken or nearly worn out reamer) might exacerbate that.
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August 28, 2018, 08:23 AM | #17 |
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Great. ������ So far I don't believe the 265gr Superformance has ever jammed (knocking on wood). And that's my main hunting round. I did notice after firing several rounds of the Leverevolution, the action gets sticky. I also notice a lot of soot around the mouth of all my cartridges. The lever stuff is shorter, so I'm worried the last guy shot the crap out of the stuff, and maybe damaged the throat. I don't know. I just want it to be accurate, lol
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August 28, 2018, 11:38 AM | #18 |
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maybe the chamber and throat need a good cleaning??
or at least a good looking over and then a good scrubbing and cleaning ocharry
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September 8, 2018, 10:07 AM | #19 |
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I will report back here when I get the Leupold back from repairs.
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