LR308 accuracy help

Tipsy Mcstagger · May 11, 2014, 10:41 PM

Hey guys, Im hoping that some of you can help. A buddy of mine has an LR308 that we just can't get dialed in. Here are the rifle details, 24" lilja barrel 1-10, unknown comp/brake, floated quad rail, tuneable gas block, shilen 2 stage trigger, monarch 4-12 scope. So far we've tried quite a bit of factory 168 ammo with silver state 168smk being the best, 1"+/- groups. As far as handholding goes, we've tried varget, 4064 and RL15 with 165 ssts, 165sgk (grouped well but not a high BC bullet), 168smk, 168hpbt hornady and 175smk. Decent 1" accuracy was gained with 41.5 4064 175smk and 44.5 gr varget 168hpbt, but we had to back off the varget due to summer heat and some pierced primers. We've used rem and win primers and LC, rem, hornady and federal brass. Long story short, what are we missing??? My last recommendation to him was that he cut and crown the barrel because the threads and brake could mess with harmonics or maybe the crown is bad and it's the cheapest available fix. We've worked up min to above max and haven't found anything truly worthy. We can both shoot and it took me a while to dial in my 700 308 and finally found a good load using varget and 168 Bergers, but still can't match federal gold match 168smk (1 ragged hole at 100 yards). Take it to a smith? We fl resized, trimmed, chamfered and deburred, checked coal on all, deburred flash holes, and measured all powders to 1/10th grain, but have not yet crimped. Ideas? Are we asking too much from an auto platform? Also, thanks for the help and I know it's a lot of info but too much is probably better than not enough.

rwilson452 · May 11, 2014, 11:26 PM

It possible if your not crimping that the bullets are being set back. Measure your COAL then run the rounds thru the the action as hard as you can two or three times without firing it and see if there is setback. Before you do that take a completed round and push it tip first into the edge of your bench with your thumb if the bullet sets back you have a problem. I had this problem with a Lee neck sizing die. I took the mandrel down .002 and every thing was fine.

Bart B. · May 12, 2014, 07:29 AM

As Federal match ammo shoots well and it's bullets are not crimped in, I would not crimp handloads to try to make them shoot well. Match ammo's not crimped because people making the best of it know crimping bullets adds another variable. No match winning record setting match rifle shooter I know of crimps bullets in their handloads. If Federal match ammo shoots well with the brake installed, there's no issues with the brake causing accuracy problems; leave it on.

Some other part of your reloading process is off the desired mark.

What sizing die are you using and how is it set in the press? Best way for autoloaders is to full length size fired cases and set their shoulder back about .002" to .003". Any more oft times leads to poor accuracy as well as short case life. Check reloaded rounds' bullets right in front of the case mouth and see if there's any bullet jacked peeled off; it'll appear as tiny curls of copper. If that's happening, the case mouths have a sharp edge that scrapes off bullet jacket unbalancing the bullets; no way will they shoot straight.

New cases, such as the Federal match ammo has, have good case head squareness. When fired in rifles whose bolt face is not squared up, the fired case head gets formed out of square against the bolt face. Resizing the case does not square it back up. When fired in that same rifle and the case head high point aligns with the bolt face high point, the rifle barrel will whip abnormally as the bullet exits and direct the bullet astray. Military rifle teams learned this back in the 1960's with 7.62 NATO chambered M1 and M14 semiauto rifles; their bolt faces were never squared up by the shops rebuilding them, but they test fired under 4 inches at 600 yards all day long with good commercial match ammo. It takes sub 1/3 inch at 100 yards to do that well at 600.

Have you checked bullet runout on the reloads? Are they as straight as Federal match ammo; no more than .003" runout?

Regarding the barrel's harmonics. They're exactly the same for every shot fired regardless of the ammo used. The barreled action and all the other parts fit are all the same, so the frequency the barrel wiggles and whips at are the same all the time. Only the amplitude, or amount of whip and wiggle will change with different loads, but only microscopically and that's not significant.

Bottom line is, if one can get excellent accuracy with Federal match ammo in that rifle, but the reloads are not all that great, it's not the rifle that's the problem. The problem lies in what's different; the reloads. Without knowing all the details, I cannot offer any specific suggestions other that get some new cases and load them with a Sierra 168 or 175 grain match bullet seated to 2.800" OAL over 43 (for 168's) or 42 (for 175's) of IMR4064 powder using a decent primer such as CCI 34.

PS: Don't crimp case mouths onto bullets; OK? If resized cases don't hold bullets tight enough, use a smaller expander ball or neck bushing; whatever your die uses.

Jimro · May 12, 2014, 07:48 AM

First, it seems like you shot the Fed GMM from the bolt rifle, and not the LR308?

Pick up some Tula KVB762 or CCI #34 primers if you can get them, if not, try this recipe.

Fed match brass (virgin)
Fed GMM Primer
41.7gr IMR 4064
175gr SMK

This will duplicate Mk316 Mod 0 sniper ammo, save for the sealed case necks. Note that FedGMM primers have a reputation for being susceptible to slamfires.

Load to magazine length.

Alternately if that doesn't work, or you don't have components on hand:

Lake City LR brass
42gr IMR4895
168gr SMK
#34 Primer

This will duplicate M852 match ammunition. If you don't have milspec primers on hand you can try CCI200s or CCI250s. If you want better temperature stability, substitute H4895 for IMR4895.

If you don't have LC LR brass, you can sort standard LC ball brass and get good results.

If that still doesn't work, or you don't have components on hand, work up to:

LC LR brass
43.0 gr Re15
175gr SMK
#34 primer

That will duplicate M118LR, and if you don't have arsenal primes, try CCI200 or 250s first.

Hope this helps.

Jimro

jersurf101 · May 12, 2014, 08:58 AM

If no other projectiles will shoot try Bergers. They are noticeably better in my savage 11 .308. I have to load them all the way out to a COAL of 2.920. It fits in the mag of my savage but I would check the AR. I found that my rifle liked the Bergers jammed in the lands but my .270 win like VLD's at .080 off the lands. Maybe try playing with you distance to your rifling with the projectiles you're using. It's worth a try.

Tipsy Mcstagger · May 12, 2014, 03:36 PM

Thanks for all the help so far. Also, the 168smk federal work well out of my bolt rifle and I mentioned this to say that we can shoot, but the rifle we can't dial in is the lr308. Ssa was the best but not great. Thanks again, and sorry for confusion.

JMP · May 13, 2014, 01:57 PM

Have you tried heavier bullets? Mine doesn't like anything less than 180gr. The best load I've found with my LR308 is with Nosler 180gr BTs loaded kind of hot with Varget. Well over 2600 fps.

May 11, 2014, 10:41 PM	#1
Tipsy Mcstagger Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2013 Location: South Texas Posts: 190	LR308 accuracy help Hey guys, Im hoping that some of you can help. A buddy of mine has an LR308 that we just can't get dialed in. Here are the rifle details, 24" lilja barrel 1-10, unknown comp/brake, floated quad rail, tuneable gas block, shilen 2 stage trigger, monarch 4-12 scope. So far we've tried quite a bit of factory 168 ammo with silver state 168smk being the best, 1"+/- groups. As far as handholding goes, we've tried varget, 4064 and RL15 with 165 ssts, 165sgk (grouped well but not a high BC bullet), 168smk, 168hpbt hornady and 175smk. Decent 1" accuracy was gained with 41.5 4064 175smk and 44.5 gr varget 168hpbt, but we had to back off the varget due to summer heat and some pierced primers. We've used rem and win primers and LC, rem, hornady and federal brass. Long story short, what are we missing??? My last recommendation to him was that he cut and crown the barrel because the threads and brake could mess with harmonics or maybe the crown is bad and it's the cheapest available fix. We've worked up min to above max and haven't found anything truly worthy. We can both shoot and it took me a while to dial in my 700 308 and finally found a good load using varget and 168 Bergers, but still can't match federal gold match 168smk (1 ragged hole at 100 yards). Take it to a smith? We fl resized, trimmed, chamfered and deburred, checked coal on all, deburred flash holes, and measured all powders to 1/10th grain, but have not yet crimped. Ideas? Are we asking too much from an auto platform? Also, thanks for the help and I know it's a lot of info but too much is probably better than not enough.

May 11, 2014, 11:26 PM	#2
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	It possible if your not crimping that the bullets are being set back. Measure your COAL then run the rounds thru the the action as hard as you can two or three times without firing it and see if there is setback. Before you do that take a completed round and push it tip first into the edge of your bench with your thumb if the bullet sets back you have a problem. I had this problem with a Lee neck sizing die. I took the mandrel down .002 and every thing was fine. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

May 12, 2014, 07:48 AM	#4
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	First, it seems like you shot the Fed GMM from the bolt rifle, and not the LR308? Pick up some Tula KVB762 or CCI #34 primers if you can get them, if not, try this recipe. Fed match brass (virgin) Fed GMM Primer 41.7gr IMR 4064 175gr SMK This will duplicate Mk316 Mod 0 sniper ammo, save for the sealed case necks. Note that FedGMM primers have a reputation for being susceptible to slamfires. Load to magazine length. Alternately if that doesn't work, or you don't have components on hand: Lake City LR brass 42gr IMR4895 168gr SMK #34 Primer This will duplicate M852 match ammunition. If you don't have milspec primers on hand you can try CCI200s or CCI250s. If you want better temperature stability, substitute H4895 for IMR4895. If you don't have LC LR brass, you can sort standard LC ball brass and get good results. If that still doesn't work, or you don't have components on hand, work up to: LC LR brass 43.0 gr Re15 175gr SMK #34 primer That will duplicate M118LR, and if you don't have arsenal primes, try CCI200 or 250s first. Hope this helps. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

May 12, 2014, 07:29 AM	#3
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	As Federal match ammo shoots well and it's bullets are not crimped in, I would not crimp handloads to try to make them shoot well. Match ammo's not crimped because people making the best of it know crimping bullets adds another variable. No match winning record setting match rifle shooter I know of crimps bullets in their handloads. If Federal match ammo shoots well with the brake installed, there's no issues with the brake causing accuracy problems; leave it on. Some other part of your reloading process is off the desired mark. What sizing die are you using and how is it set in the press? Best way for autoloaders is to full length size fired cases and set their shoulder back about .002" to .003". Any more oft times leads to poor accuracy as well as short case life. Check reloaded rounds' bullets right in front of the case mouth and see if there's any bullet jacked peeled off; it'll appear as tiny curls of copper. If that's happening, the case mouths have a sharp edge that scrapes off bullet jacket unbalancing the bullets; no way will they shoot straight. New cases, such as the Federal match ammo has, have good case head squareness. When fired in rifles whose bolt face is not squared up, the fired case head gets formed out of square against the bolt face. Resizing the case does not square it back up. When fired in that same rifle and the case head high point aligns with the bolt face high point, the rifle barrel will whip abnormally as the bullet exits and direct the bullet astray. Military rifle teams learned this back in the 1960's with 7.62 NATO chambered M1 and M14 semiauto rifles; their bolt faces were never squared up by the shops rebuilding them, but they test fired under 4 inches at 600 yards all day long with good commercial match ammo. It takes sub 1/3 inch at 100 yards to do that well at 600. Have you checked bullet runout on the reloads? Are they as straight as Federal match ammo; no more than .003" runout? Regarding the barrel's harmonics. They're exactly the same for every shot fired regardless of the ammo used. The barreled action and all the other parts fit are all the same, so the frequency the barrel wiggles and whips at are the same all the time. Only the amplitude, or amount of whip and wiggle will change with different loads, but only microscopically and that's not significant. Bottom line is, if one can get excellent accuracy with Federal match ammo in that rifle, but the reloads are not all that great, it's not the rifle that's the problem. The problem lies in what's different; the reloads. Without knowing all the details, I cannot offer any specific suggestions other that get some new cases and load them with a Sierra 168 or 175 grain match bullet seated to 2.800" OAL over 43 (for 168's) or 42 (for 175's) of IMR4064 powder using a decent primer such as CCI 34. PS: Don't crimp case mouths onto bullets; OK? If resized cases don't hold bullets tight enough, use a smaller expander ball or neck bushing; whatever your die uses. Last edited by Bart B.; May 12, 2014 at 08:00 AM.

May 12, 2014, 08:58 AM	#5
jersurf101 Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 553	If no other projectiles will shoot try Bergers. They are noticeably better in my savage 11 .308. I have to load them all the way out to a COAL of 2.920. It fits in the mag of my savage but I would check the AR. I found that my rifle liked the Bergers jammed in the lands but my .270 win like VLD's at .080 off the lands. Maybe try playing with you distance to your rifling with the projectiles you're using. It's worth a try.

May 12, 2014, 03:36 PM	#6
Tipsy Mcstagger Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2013 Location: South Texas Posts: 190	Thanks for all the help so far. Also, the 168smk federal work well out of my bolt rifle and I mentioned this to say that we can shoot, but the rifle we can't dial in is the lr308. Ssa was the best but not great. Thanks again, and sorry for confusion.

May 13, 2014, 01:57 PM	#7
JMP Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2010 Location: Wyoming Posts: 118	Have you tried heavier bullets? Mine doesn't like anything less than 180gr. The best load I've found with my LR308 is with Nosler 180gr BTs loaded kind of hot with Varget. Well over 2600 fps.