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February 8, 2012, 08:11 PM | #51 |
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Okay, so, how about the FN 5.7? Higher velocity, but still a small round. Intermediate round?
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February 8, 2012, 08:13 PM | #52 |
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Does caliber matter?
If you were hiking in grizzly bear country, would you take just a 22lr revolver with you? I know I wouldn't. Now, of course humans aren't grizzly bears so you don't need to carry a 454 Casull or larger to stop a bad character. But, since the only reliable method of stopping someone (or any other living creature) that is actively trying to kill you, is the rapid loss of blood to the brain, I would think you would want to carry a caliber that produces ammunition known for its reliable expansion and penetration. Years and years of encounters have shown that something in .38 special/9mm and larger (40, 41, 10mm, 44, 45), designed to pentrate and expand, are a viable option for handgun defense against humans. That is not to say that the .32 calibers and the .380 variations are completely without merit. Since these two tend to be made in pistols known for their excellent portability, I would say they are at least a decent choice as compared to the 22lr and .25acp. To me, caliber matters but there are other variables that need to be considered. However, I would think that one would try to maximize caliber taking into consideration the totality of personal needs. |
February 8, 2012, 08:14 PM | #53 | ||
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February 8, 2012, 08:19 PM | #54 | |
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So does the higher velocity substitute for mass with .45 versus 5.7MM, all else being equal?
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February 8, 2012, 08:20 PM | #55 | |||
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and here I'll fix it so I dont change any of your parameters. And are you sure it does. Even if you destroy the heart and lungs you have 15-30 seconds that Mr BG can return fire, so who is better off the guy who's carrying a XX uber magnum shoot COM breaks a rib and destroys heart and lungs only to have Mr BG drill him in the head seconds later or the guy carrys a 32acp shoots COM deflects off the rib and hits ths spine between 3rd and 4th vertabre ending his aggression
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February 8, 2012, 08:41 PM | #56 |
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Is caliber really all that important for ccw
I think it is, but not as all-fired important as many make it out to be. Personally, I see 380 as the minimum for me. And if I ever needed a handgun in a critical situation, I'm sure I be wishing I had a 357mag or 45acp.
That said, I also think that a good marskman with a 22 pocket pistol could be effective in 95+% of the situations an ordinary citizen would face. |
February 8, 2012, 08:47 PM | #57 | |
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February 8, 2012, 09:04 PM | #58 | ||||
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As for universal consensus, all law enforcement agencies pretty much authorize 9x19, .40 S&W and/or .45 ACP for duty use. I'm not aware of any issuing officers .22 lr for their pistols. The thing is that 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum and 10mm (and other comparable cartridges) are all reasonable choices for general self defense applications, at least with well designed JHP bullets. Most of the debate about which is best is probably found on Internet gun forums. Other cartridges may be decent choices for special applications. Some lower powered cartridges may be useful when a smaller gun is needed for deep concealment or for someone particularly sensitive to recoil. More powerful cartridges probably aren't very useful for self defense (except for some animal defense), because the terminal ballistic - controllability trade off is too disadvantageous. Quote:
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February 8, 2012, 09:08 PM | #59 | |
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February 8, 2012, 09:58 PM | #60 | |||
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February 8, 2012, 11:01 PM | #61 | |||
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In any case, a lot of things are conceivable. It's also conceivable that a .32 will just cause a bone chip to the spine, while a .45 at the same spot would cause disabling nerve trauma. It's also conceivable that a .32 will not fully penetrate the pelvis, while a .45 at the same place will crack the bone creating an incapacitating injury. It's conceivable that a .32 will just miss a major blood vessel, while a .45 in the same place will tear the blood vessel accelerating blood loss and incapacitation from exsanguination. In unique situations, a .32 might work out well. But overall, a .45 will produce more damage and thus gives one an overall edge. Quote:
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February 9, 2012, 02:19 AM | #62 |
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I think it is. I carry a snub .38 loaded with +P ammo, and I would go no smaller. Ask yourself this question: If you knew your life or your family's life was going to be threatened, would you want to be armed with a .22 handgun or a .45 handgun? My answer would be .45 every time.
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February 9, 2012, 03:02 AM | #63 | |
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fiddletown
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February 9, 2012, 08:12 AM | #64 | |||
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February 9, 2012, 10:49 AM | #65 | |
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February 9, 2012, 11:09 AM | #66 | |
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February 9, 2012, 11:32 AM | #67 | ||
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A 45 may increase your chances is a statement of probabbility. A 45 will inccrease your chances is a absolute statement. Which is not true in all instances. Given that my prefered 32 acp load will out penatrate most commercial 45 JHP in bare gel. And as soon as you have a 11oz 45 acp that's 3/4" wide annd hols 7 rounds then all things can be equal. Until then all handguns will be a compramise.
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February 9, 2012, 11:37 AM | #68 | |
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February 9, 2012, 12:08 PM | #69 | ||
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February 9, 2012, 12:15 PM | #70 | |
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You might not understand what I've written (although it has been in perfectly good English). But I suspect that others reading this thread will be able to. So this discussion between you and I on this subject must now come to an end so that others can participate in this thread. |
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February 9, 2012, 01:32 PM | #71 |
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"Chances" and "probability" are synonyms in the context of this discussion.
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February 9, 2012, 03:39 PM | #72 |
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MTT TL. Quote.
As our Irish friend pointed out the Ulster Guards were issued .22s. The decision was almost entirely political though. Short of that I know of none. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the mid-1970s the Royal Army Ordnance Corps purchased about 3000 Walther PPs in 22LR for the Ulster Defence Regiment, an infantry regiment operating out of Northern Ireland. These guns were designated L66A1 and described, maybe a touch grandiosely, as a PDW or "personal defense weapon. I think you are right there were political reasons. I don't know what the thinking was and i live here but obviously a larger caliber would of being more effective. |
February 9, 2012, 05:20 PM | #73 | |
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February 9, 2012, 05:55 PM | #74 |
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I suppose it depends by what you mean by "all that important."
Any caliber is good enough for self-defense until it isn't. People have died instantly to a .22 Short and suffered no serious injury from being shot in the head with a .44 Magnum. Of course, one is more likely than another, but there is no line at which you can say "Everything more powerful than this always works." |
February 9, 2012, 08:06 PM | #75 | |
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If you do feel your life is worth more than 20-cents, carry the largest and most powerful weapon you can conceal and shoot accurately/quickly.
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