In reaction to Got Lead's thread on BB guns being drawn... - Page 2

444 · August 9, 2006, 07:50 PM

Sorry, but I didn't read all the previous posts so I hope I am not repeating anything.
First of all let's realize that you could be seriously hurt or even killed with a BB or pellet pistol. So, we are talking about the threat of at least serious bodily harm. As Ralphie well knows, you can put an eye out with even the cheapest BB gun. That is a HUGE permenent disability.
Second, the age of the person holding it doesn't matter. A six year old can kill you just as dead as an adult. I have seen a number of people killed by young children. Mostly by accident: kids playing with loaded guns. The victims were just as dead as if shot by Bonnie and Clyde.

Now, my answer: if the situation occured in perfect circumstances where I had at least a split second with a clear view of the gun, in good light and the gun was obviously an air gun, I would hesitate to shoot dispite the danger. Some airguns are obviously airguns. Guns that you have to pump up like a Benjamn/Sheridan LOOK like airguns. If there was any doubt in my mind I would shoot.

FWIW, I have seen at least two persons shot by police officers who were brandishing airguns (I work as a paramedic).

threegun · August 10, 2006, 09:44 AM

Guys I originally thought that I could just cover my eyes as Razor stated and the threat is gone. Having thought this through further (thanks to this thread and Azurefly) and assuming that it is a teen aged thug attempting some type of forcible felony, I would be forced to apply deadly force. Covering my eyes in the face of an assailant is tactically insane for starters. If I have done my job my gun should be blazing before the recognition of gun type is made anyway.

Something similar happen to me a my job. A customer armed with a bb gun pulled it from under his jacket (ala shoulder holster area) and pointed it at a coworker. In this case I didn't fire because I recognized the gun as a bb gun in time. The gun was not pointed at me however so no immediate danger was focused at me. I was behind a counter and with a coworker so the danger of being assaulted by the thug while covering my eyes was nil.

I don't want to kill someone over a bbgun. But this isn't doing that as I now think of it. It is killing someone to protect yourself from a potentially deadly threat that they imposed upon you against your will. They can take a chance with their own lives not mine. Thanks TFL and Azurefly. I have corrected a flaw in my thinking that could have caused me to make a very bad decision.

razorburn · August 10, 2006, 09:11 PM

^ in that situation, it's the threat of being physically attacked by fists and kicks than the bb gun. That does warrant deadly force if the guy is a physically superior specimen. If it's some kid who can't physically beat you down, armed with just a bb gun, then covering your eyes will be just fine.

In either situation a obvious solution is simply to just turn around and leave, at most being annoyed by the feeling of little bbs bouncing off your back as you go.

Just about any object hitting the eye will destroy it, and just about any object has killed people. If you just got a ccw for the sake of rampaging about looking for an excuse to kill someone, the flawed argument for shooting a kid wielding kid you know to be armed with a bb gun can also be used against kids with slingshots, pencils, crayons, paper airplanes, etc, all of which will put out an eye or kill you....

The real reason anybody wants to shoot a recognized bb gun wielding kid, is simply anger at the notion that someone has the rude impudence to harass them.

Epyon · August 10, 2006, 10:30 PM

It seems this is a rehash of Got Lead's BB gun thread, this wasn't about whether or not you could identify it as a BB gun, just a kid (of the varying age brackets I listed.) drawing on you, and you don't know if it's a BB gun or a real one.

Epyon

bclark1 · August 11, 2006, 09:06 AM

not to go back a ways, but you have to play odds. it's life. you're not a cop, you don't have to play vigilante, and you're going to have an immeasurable burden of proof to put forth when you shoot. i am all for stopping criminals at any phase in their "careers" in their tracks. but i justify my former response here with that your odds of ending up in jail or absolutely destitute from a civil suit are much higher than your odds of comparable physical damage, which i would define as loss of hearing, vision or worse. by responding to an airgun with a firearm, you tip the scale in terms of force disparity. you have the right to defend yourself in kind, fight fire with fire, and by doing that you'll always be in the right and should expect exoneration from blame. but no matter how much some punk kid has it coming, when you go from 0 to 100 responding with deadly force, you're risking your freedom and livelihood, which are what we are trying to protect. and you inadvertantly risk that of your fellow gunners too, because every dumb kid that gets himself shot is more fuel in the anti's fire.

threegun · August 11, 2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

If it's some kid who can't physically beat you down, armed with just a bb gun, then covering your eyes will be just fine.

Once your eyes are covered or back is turned, who's to say the bb gun doesn't become a blunt force instrument? How about a knife being pulled since the fake gun didn't work. The "little thug" didn't pull the bb gun to scare you, he has intentions. I have to accept responsibilities for my actions and so will they. Unfortunately I cannot allow another to place me in this kind of danger. My children want daddy to come home every night. If I can avoid shooting by covering up and withdrawing of course I will. If bb gun boy advances he's a goner.

Epyon · August 12, 2006, 12:16 AM

Though your words are valid, it's kind of like preaching to the choir. However, I would still like to see some real answers from everyone on what you'd do if you encountered youngsters at varying ages and they draw an UNIDENTIFIABLE OBJECT THAT LOOKS LIKE A FIREARM! In this scenario you don't have any escape route/extremely difficult escape route.

Epyon

P.S: I'm trying to keep this thread on topic.

oldbillthundercheif · August 12, 2006, 12:21 AM

And read "On Killing"

It's not entirely relevant to this discussion, but would be an eye-opener to a lot of couch-commandos.

Dang good book that's spot on about human reactions in bad situations...

Raptor5191 · August 12, 2006, 10:20 AM

Epyon: See my original response.

Epyon · August 12, 2006, 10:25 AM

I did read your response to this thread's question, I do like what you had to say. Makes plenty of sense.

Epyon

PythonGuy · August 12, 2006, 10:58 AM

To add some real life to this thread, we just had a robbery here on Long Island in a town called Brentwood with 3 misfits pulling a BB gun on several different people, robbing them. They were 19 and 20 years olds and hopefully will go to jail for a long time, although they usually get out even worse criminals. There is no carry here in Long Island unless you are a LEO, but if these guys robbed an off-duty officer and got shot, its their fault and they get what they deserve. The only reason they used a BB gun was because they couldn't get their hands on a real one. I don't think that 3 or 4 guys carrying guns is a good time for a CCW holder to pull his gun and challange, a man's got to know his limitations as a "famous" movie cop once said. Its a tough problem with no easy answer, "Dirty Harry" only exists in the movies, not real life......

springmom · August 12, 2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

I don't think that 3 or 4 guys carrying guns is a good time for a CCW holder to pull his gun and challange, a man's got to know his limitations as a "famous" movie cop once said. Its a tough problem with no easy answer, "Dirty Harry" only exists in the movies, not real life......

This is the most sensible thing in this thread. And I would add, if I was up against 3 or 4 guys, I don't care if all they had were catcher's mitts, I'd consider myself (arthritic slow-moving babushka that I am) in DEEP doo-doo.

Thanks for the reality check, Pythonguy.

Springmom

Epyon · August 12, 2006, 10:34 PM

Sorry if I was vague, I never meant as in multiple attackers, I meant one on one against each of the age limits I listed.

Epyon

P.S: I saw the movie Empire Records today and in that movie there's a scene where a 15 year old boy is holding up a music store with a revolver firing it wildly. It turns out the revolver only had blanks in it, however in a situation like that after seeing that movie, it made me think if I really had no way to escape, I didn't know if the gun had blanks or whatever, and it boiled down to protecting me or my girlfriend, I guess I'd have no choice then.

bclark1 · August 12, 2006, 11:56 PM

i said if it's unidentifiable, it'd be entirely situational. it's really a moot point. i'm not going to say "always shoot." if it's someone who looks dangerous, maybe. if it's some half-pint teenager, i'd probably hesitate and hope i had the nerve to talk them down. i might get myself killed if they were serious and had a real gun. but i'll never land myself in prison or tarnish the reputations of the people i care about and the gun good guys.

all these ideas go out the window once it really happens though. interesting point of debate, but there's no right answer, and i'm trying to serve as a counterweight on the bb-earns-a-bullet mentality, because i worry that conclusions made in topics like these are easily taken out of context and can earn us a bad rep.

razorburn · August 13, 2006, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threegun

Once your eyes are covered or back is turned, who's to say the bb gun doesn't become a blunt force instrument? How about a knife being pulled since the fake gun didn't work. The "little thug" didn't pull the bb gun to scare you, he has intentions. I have to accept responsibilities for my actions and so will they. Unfortunately I cannot allow another to place me in this kind of danger. My children want daddy to come home every night. If I can avoid shooting by covering up and withdrawing of course I will. If bb gun boy advances he's a goner.

You don't think he pulled it to scare you? Of course he did! What use is a bb gun for anything else in a crime, other than the fact that it can look like a real gun? In terms of firepower, it's about the same as a rubber band slingshot, and much less deadly than pretty much anything else around, a sharp stick, a pipe, a wrench, etc. If it's a weak young kid as I said, his use of it as a blunt instrument will not take you down. You'll still hear him coming, especially if you just turn around and leave, since he'll have to run to catch you. If it's a kid, he'll be much smaller than you and probably won't catch you on his short legs no matter what. If the threat of an empty-handed physical attack justifies shooting, then shoot. But the bb gun should not have any effect itself on the decision.

All the wannabe Ralphie killers seem to want to ignore this extremely simple solution. Just turn around and leave. At worst, the feeling of bbs bouncing off your backside will annoy you.

Please, don't cheapen your family by using them as an emotional throwback to try and justify something this absurd. How'd you like it if next time you were at a pediatricians office, someone shot one of your kids for pointing a rubber band at him? After all, it could've put his eye out too!

It's just those pompous bitter people who are angry and indignant that someone would dare harass them, and so search for a rationalization to kill them. It's wrong, it's sick, and it's twisted.

Kids have been shooting at each other with BB guns since they were invented. I've been shot at by a bb gun. Hundreds of times. And you know what? I'm still alive, which is apparently a miracle according to some posters, since apparently I should've killed my friends to have had any chance of that. If you and your friends had bb guns when you were kids, you probably have been too. Getting shot at by a BB gun is having your life or health at extreme danger. It's not a good enough reason to warrant killing someone.

threegun · August 13, 2006, 09:07 AM

Razorburn, You are way out of line buddy.
For starters I'm neither bitter nor pompous. Nor am I angry, indignant or looking to kill. How about laying off the name calling.

What I am is realistic. I understand that a teen aged bad guy pointing a bb gun at me in a dark alley is not simply trying to scare me as I pointed out already. He is attempting to use it as a tool to achieve a goal which is a force-able felony of some type probably robbery. I will treat this threat as listed above. If the thug advances while I'm covering my eyes he's a goner.

Quote:

Please, don't cheapen your family by using them as an emotional throwback to try and justify something this absurd. How'd you like it if next time you were at a pediatricians office, someone shot one of your kids for pointing a rubber band at him? After all, it could've put his eye out too!

Your mind is so closed that you fail to see the difference in a teen pointing a bbgun at you and a teen pointing one at you in an attempt to rob you. Then you compare it to rubber bands get real man.

You would have us turn our backs to a robber and call me absurd LOL.
BTW let my 10 year old whack you on the head with a metal bb gun. Might allow you to see the light.

Epyon · August 13, 2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

BTW let my 10 year old whack you on the head with a metal bb gun. Might allow you to see the light.

Or maybe see stars?

Epyon

Doubletaptap · August 14, 2006, 12:40 AM

This is a hard decision I hope i never have to make.
If you did blast the guy with the pellet or bb gun-and those airsofts look real too!!
The anti-gunners would have a field day!!!

razorburn · August 14, 2006, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Razorburn, You are way out of line buddy.
For starters I'm neither bitter nor pompous. Nor am I angry, indignant or looking to kill. How about laying off the name calling.

What I am is realistic. I understand that a teen aged bad guy pointing a bb gun at me in a dark alley is not simply trying to scare me as I pointed out already. He is attempting to use it as a tool to achieve a goal which is a force-able felony of some type probably robbery. I will treat this threat as listed above. If the thug advances while I'm covering my eyes he's a goner.

Quote:
Please, don't cheapen your family by using them as an emotional throwback to try and justify something this absurd. How'd you like it if next time you were at a pediatricians office, someone shot one of your kids for pointing a rubber band at him? After all, it could've put his eye out too!

Your mind is so closed that you fail to see the difference in a teen pointing a bbgun at you and a teen pointing one at you in an attempt to rob you. Then you compare it to rubber bands get real man.

You would have us turn our backs to a robber and call me absurd LOL.
BTW let my 10 year old whack you on the head with a metal bb gun. Might allow you to see the light.

The manner in which he chooses to use this "tool", is as a tool to scare you. Not a tool to kill or maim you, since any imbecile knows a toy gun that can't even break skin or draw blood is not going to be effective to that use. It is about as dangerous as a rubber band, in that all its capable of is eye damage with an eyeball shot.

99% of the bb pistols out there are made of mostly plastic and weigh not much more than 1 lb. You think having a 10 year old hit you on the head with that is a threat to your life? It would hurt of course, but not kill you. And then I could easily overpower, take his gun, and lay a serious ass-kicking on your kid once he's in that close.

As stated before, if you fear for your life if the robber did not have the bb gun, then it's justified to shoot. In that case, its not the bb gun. The bb gun changes nothing and gives absolutely no leverage for being a justified shoot.

If it's a kid who you wouldn't shoot if he was trying to rob you unarmed, then you can just run away. He's not likely to be able to keep up. You can get in a car and just drive off. Get inside some kind of room, and just hold the door closed. There's a near infinite number of options. Killing the kid you know has just a bb gun is a disgusting show of disregard for human life, as well as extremely unlikely to play out well in court.

I mean, just look at what's happened in our discussion so far. You've already lost the life-endangering-bb gun-threat argument with the the massive showing of the hundreds of millions of kids shooting each other with bb guns and experiences of those who've had them in their youth and been shot countless times; so now you're on shaky ground, backpeddling on that and trying to bolster your argument by jumping to conclusions about contrived "intentions". He's now a robber, I guess, in your mind.

Firstly, it's not in either of the original posts which were simply about being drawn on by bb guns, you're now just making up additional dimensions to the argument.. But either way, a news search shows that bb gun shootings are typically harassment and not some malicious prelude to getting out a real weapon and killing. Okay, playing based on those new guidelines, if it is a robber who you consider to be a lifethreatening danger even without any detectable weapons, then yes, I'd support drawing.

threegun · August 14, 2006, 01:52 PM

Razorburn,

Quote:

so now you're on shaky ground, backpeddling on that and trying to bolster your argument by jumping to conclusions about contrived "intentions". He's now a robber, I guess, in your mind.

I am referring to the post by Glenn Meyer

Quote:

What if your teenage daughter gets mad at you and picks up your Daisy and points it at you? You are carrying your Springfield XD in 45 ACP with Federal Atomic HP 500 Gr Blastos. Do you hose her? As compared to some teenager mugger who stops you in a dark alley with a clearly identified pellet gun?

I changed nothing. Clearly here I wouldn't shoot a teen playfully (however stupid) pointing a bbgun at me. The mugger comparison is what I have been referring to.

The use of the BBgun in an attempted force able felony is as a tool to scare you into compliance. If this fails (once you turn your back to retreat this threat is gone) you are still left with an assailant armed with a blunt object or possibly more that you haven't seen yet who has bad intentions. It simply isn't smart to respond by turning your back. Even covering the eyes could disadvantage you to defend against further attack.

Next you claim that BBguns cannot cause blunt trauma to you. I can only disagree by saying that many bbguns are solid enough to cause significant damage depending on the violence of the attack. Some including the crossman dart shooting bbgun (which was used in my bbgun episode) will cause serious damage or death if used as a blunt force tool. This however is but one possibility once you have committed tactical suicide by giving an aggressor your back.

Again I am talking about a teen aged mugger intent on robbery or worst not some idiot teen prankster that you keep confusing. Several times I stated that if covering up and withdrawling safely was possible thats the course I would take. If not allowed to do so safely he's a goner.

Anthony2 · August 14, 2006, 05:01 PM

For all thoise interested....A pellet gun can kill a person.

At the age of 9 a friend of mine was shooting birds in his backyard, which overlooks a car wash. After shooting at two or three and missing, he lost interest and put the pellet gun away...(blasted babysitter was asleep)

Much to his shock and amazement, one of the pellets made it through the trees in the backyard and entered the vicinity of the car wash. At that young age and having no concept of ballistics, he had assumed the trees would stop his pellets.

Where did the pellet go? Across the car wash and into the eye of a young
(30ish) mother.

While she did not die immediately, she did unfortunately die before reaching the hospital due to internal bleeding.

This event although tragic did serve as a catalyst. From that day on all the area schools have had a firearms safety course available free of charge for any child with a consenting parent.

AND
My family, that of the child, and that of the victim...have developed zero tolerance policy on firearms handling, one that I still hold to 'til this day.

That and we have some of the best marksmen I've ever met...

Back to the original topic, I would hope either I or the police would beat the daylights out of anyone stupid enough to use a pellet gun (or any firearm) in that manner....I agree with other posters that the response would be entirely situationally conditional....

Consider this: If the situation were instead in your home, would you take the time to determine the caliber of firearm of an intruder? I seriously doubt it.
More likely than not, most of us if in an inescapeable situation wouldn't take the time to think about it...we would react the same as if confronted with a 9mm or 45 acp.....

Just my thoughts on the matter....

threegun · August 14, 2006, 05:56 PM

Anthony, Thanks. While a few "supermen" on this thread believe differently, most, including you and I, understand that a bbgun can kill. While a youth I killed many creatures with handgun bb and pellet pistols from pumps to co2's. Game rabbit sized was achievable if range and shot placement were ideal. Having field dressed many rabbits I understand the penetration capabilities. There is no doubt in my mind that an eyeball shot could be deadly even at pistol velocities

PS Razorburn, I, as you suggested, have been shot many times as a child and dumb adolescent with a bb/pellet rifle and I can tell you right now that it hurt way more than a rubberband. Including one time that my friend had to pinch the bb out of my leg.........looked like a mini geyser of blood.

azurefly · August 14, 2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Guys I originally thought that I could just cover my eyes as Razor stated and the threat is gone. Having thought this through further (thanks to this thread and Azurefly) and assuming that it is a teen aged thug attempting some type of forcible felony, I would be forced to apply deadly force. Covering my eyes in the face of an assailant is tactically insane for starters. If I have done my job my gun should be blazing before the recognition of gun type is made anyway.

Glad my words helped you come to an understanding.

You and others have noted (correctly) that covering one's face (eyes) in the presence of a direct threat is just ludicrous. I would certainly want to check the training and credentials of anyone who suggests that shielding one's attacker from one's sight is a recommended course of action.

razorburn casually leaves out the fact that there are airguns out there that could penetrate enough flesh to perforate an intestine, mutilate the genitals, etc. And just because "it's only a bb gun," he advocates that we are cold-blooded murderer-wannabes if we say that we'd seriously consider shooting the assailant armed with a bb gun.

Threegun, your posts just keep getting better and better. Keep it up.

Regarding razorburn's posts, they keep degenerating into character assassination and name-calling. It's not worth responding to them; and he's continually exposing how out-of-touch with reality he is on this subject. Comparing criminal intent that's combined with a potentially weapon, against a rubber band in a pediatrician's office, indeed!

-azurefly

riverkeeper · August 14, 2006, 07:04 PM

Edit--the scenario indicates that the weapon appears to be real. The assumption reasonably can then be that it is and that we are legitimately in fear of bodily harm/death.

If I KNEW it was a BB gun my response below would be different if only one gun person was involved. End of edit

To some extent my responses depend on both the kid's age and situational environment...is it negative (gangish, hostile looks, night, harsh words, aggressive body postures, aggressive approach, how close) OR is it a more ambiguous or positive environment?

I do NOT KNOW FOR SURE with the elementary age what I would do BUT in all but negative environments they might get a break unless they're with a really rowdy group .... I hope I'd challenge, charge &/or run quickly to cover and draw and proceed wisely. They've made their choice then I will make mine...Darwin decides.

With older kids in either a negative or ambiguous environment it might start a game of Hardball with Hollowpoints. They've made their choice then I make mine...Darwin decides.

threegun · August 15, 2006, 09:07 AM

Azure,

Quote:

Glad my words helped you come to an understanding.

Thanks, me too. Thats why I love this site. Gets you thinking about things in advance thereby reducing the chances of getting hurt because you hesitated.

August 9, 2006, 07:50 PM	#26
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Sorry, but I didn't read all the previous posts so I hope I am not repeating anything. First of all let's realize that you could be seriously hurt or even killed with a BB or pellet pistol. So, we are talking about the threat of at least serious bodily harm. As Ralphie well knows, you can put an eye out with even the cheapest BB gun. That is a HUGE permenent disability. Second, the age of the person holding it doesn't matter. A six year old can kill you just as dead as an adult. I have seen a number of people killed by young children. Mostly by accident: kids playing with loaded guns. The victims were just as dead as if shot by Bonnie and Clyde. Now, my answer: if the situation occured in perfect circumstances where I had at least a split second with a clear view of the gun, in good light and the gun was obviously an air gun, I would hesitate to shoot dispite the danger. Some airguns are obviously airguns. Guns that you have to pump up like a Benjamn/Sheridan LOOK like airguns. If there was any doubt in my mind I would shoot. FWIW, I have seen at least two persons shot by police officers who were brandishing airguns (I work as a paramedic). __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

August 10, 2006, 10:30 PM	#29
Epyon Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: Awesome, Colorado Posts: 700	Eep! It seems this is a rehash of Got Lead's BB gun thread, this wasn't about whether or not you could identify it as a BB gun, just a kid (of the varying age brackets I listed.) drawing on you, and you don't know if it's a BB gun or a real one. Epyon __________________ Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.

August 12, 2006, 12:16 AM	#32
Epyon Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: Awesome, Colorado Posts: 700	To bclark1... Though your words are valid, it's kind of like preaching to the choir. However, I would still like to see some real answers from everyone on what you'd do if you encountered youngsters at varying ages and they draw an UNIDENTIFIABLE OBJECT THAT LOOKS LIKE A FIREARM! In this scenario you don't have any escape route/extremely difficult escape route. Epyon P.S: I'm trying to keep this thread on topic. __________________ Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.

August 12, 2006, 12:21 AM	#33
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	Listen to the Cap'n And read "On Killing" It's not entirely relevant to this discussion, but would be an eye-opener to a lot of couch-commandos. Dang good book that's spot on about human reactions in bad situations...

August 12, 2006, 10:25 AM	#35
Epyon Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: Awesome, Colorado Posts: 700	Raptor5191... I did read your response to this thread's question, I do like what you had to say. Makes plenty of sense. Epyon __________________ Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.

August 10, 2006, 09:44 AM	#27
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Guys I originally thought that I could just cover my eyes as Razor stated and the threat is gone. Having thought this through further (thanks to this thread and Azurefly) and assuming that it is a teen aged thug attempting some type of forcible felony, I would be forced to apply deadly force. Covering my eyes in the face of an assailant is tactically insane for starters. If I have done my job my gun should be blazing before the recognition of gun type is made anyway. Something similar happen to me a my job. A customer armed with a bb gun pulled it from under his jacket (ala shoulder holster area) and pointed it at a coworker. In this case I didn't fire because I recognized the gun as a bb gun in time. The gun was not pointed at me however so no immediate danger was focused at me. I was behind a counter and with a coworker so the danger of being assaulted by the thug while covering my eyes was nil. I don't want to kill someone over a bbgun. But this isn't doing that as I now think of it. It is killing someone to protect yourself from a potentially deadly threat that they imposed upon you against your will. They can take a chance with their own lives not mine. Thanks TFL and Azurefly. I have corrected a flaw in my thinking that could have caused me to make a very bad decision.

August 10, 2006, 09:11 PM	#28
razorburn Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2006 Posts: 260	^ in that situation, it's the threat of being physically attacked by fists and kicks than the bb gun. That does warrant deadly force if the guy is a physically superior specimen. If it's some kid who can't physically beat you down, armed with just a bb gun, then covering your eyes will be just fine. In either situation a obvious solution is simply to just turn around and leave, at most being annoyed by the feeling of little bbs bouncing off your back as you go. Just about any object hitting the eye will destroy it, and just about any object has killed people. If you just got a ccw for the sake of rampaging about looking for an excuse to kill someone, the flawed argument for shooting a kid wielding kid you know to be armed with a bb gun can also be used against kids with slingshots, pencils, crayons, paper airplanes, etc, all of which will put out an eye or kill you.... The real reason anybody wants to shoot a recognized bb gun wielding kid, is simply anger at the notion that someone has the rude impudence to harass them.

August 11, 2006, 09:06 AM	#30
bclark1 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,531	not to go back a ways, but you have to play odds. it's life. you're not a cop, you don't have to play vigilante, and you're going to have an immeasurable burden of proof to put forth when you shoot. i am all for stopping criminals at any phase in their "careers" in their tracks. but i justify my former response here with that your odds of ending up in jail or absolutely destitute from a civil suit are much higher than your odds of comparable physical damage, which i would define as loss of hearing, vision or worse. by responding to an airgun with a firearm, you tip the scale in terms of force disparity. you have the right to defend yourself in kind, fight fire with fire, and by doing that you'll always be in the right and should expect exoneration from blame. but no matter how much some punk kid has it coming, when you go from 0 to 100 responding with deadly force, you're risking your freedom and livelihood, which are what we are trying to protect. and you inadvertantly risk that of your fellow gunners too, because every dumb kid that gets himself shot is more fuel in the anti's fire.

August 12, 2006, 10:20 AM	#34
Raptor5191 Member Join Date: June 29, 2006 Location: Carrollton, TX Posts: 34	Epyon: See my original response.

August 12, 2006, 10:58 AM	#36
PythonGuy Junior member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 456	To add some real life to this thread, we just had a robbery here on Long Island in a town called Brentwood with 3 misfits pulling a BB gun on several different people, robbing them. They were 19 and 20 years olds and hopefully will go to jail for a long time, although they usually get out even worse criminals. There is no carry here in Long Island unless you are a LEO, but if these guys robbed an off-duty officer and got shot, its their fault and they get what they deserve. The only reason they used a BB gun was because they couldn't get their hands on a real one. I don't think that 3 or 4 guys carrying guns is a good time for a CCW holder to pull his gun and challange, a man's got to know his limitations as a "famous" movie cop once said. Its a tough problem with no easy answer, "Dirty Harry" only exists in the movies, not real life......

August 12, 2006, 10:34 PM	#38
Epyon Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: Awesome, Colorado Posts: 700	Python Guy... Sorry if I was vague, I never meant as in multiple attackers, I meant one on one against each of the age limits I listed. Epyon P.S: I saw the movie Empire Records today and in that movie there's a scene where a 15 year old boy is holding up a music store with a revolver firing it wildly. It turns out the revolver only had blanks in it, however in a situation like that after seeing that movie, it made me think if I really had no way to escape, I didn't know if the gun had blanks or whatever, and it boiled down to protecting me or my girlfriend, I guess I'd have no choice then. __________________ Vote Epyon for president in 2008, if you vote for Epyon all of your wildest dreams will come true: This campaign was brought to you by Epyon; funded in part by the Pizza Party, Surprise Party, Birthday Party, and Slumber Party.

August 12, 2006, 11:56 PM	#39
bclark1 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,531	i said if it's unidentifiable, it'd be entirely situational. it's really a moot point. i'm not going to say "always shoot." if it's someone who looks dangerous, maybe. if it's some half-pint teenager, i'd probably hesitate and hope i had the nerve to talk them down. i might get myself killed if they were serious and had a real gun. but i'll never land myself in prison or tarnish the reputations of the people i care about and the gun good guys. all these ideas go out the window once it really happens though. interesting point of debate, but there's no right answer, and i'm trying to serve as a counterweight on the bb-earns-a-bullet mentality, because i worry that conclusions made in topics like these are easily taken out of context and can earn us a bad rep.

August 14, 2006, 12:40 AM	#43
Doubletaptap Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2006 Location: Around north Houston Posts: 287	This is a hard decision I hope i never have to make. If you did blast the guy with the pellet or bb gun-and those airsofts look real too!! The anti-gunners would have a field day!!! __________________ Don't believe the hype!!!

August 14, 2006, 05:01 PM	#46
Anthony2 Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 360	For all thoise interested....A pellet gun can kill a person. At the age of 9 a friend of mine was shooting birds in his backyard, which overlooks a car wash. After shooting at two or three and missing, he lost interest and put the pellet gun away...(blasted babysitter was asleep) Much to his shock and amazement, one of the pellets made it through the trees in the backyard and entered the vicinity of the car wash. At that young age and having no concept of ballistics, he had assumed the trees would stop his pellets. Where did the pellet go? Across the car wash and into the eye of a young (30ish) mother. While she did not die immediately, she did unfortunately die before reaching the hospital due to internal bleeding. This event although tragic did serve as a catalyst. From that day on all the area schools have had a firearms safety course available free of charge for any child with a consenting parent. AND My family, that of the child, and that of the victim...have developed zero tolerance policy on firearms handling, one that I still hold to 'til this day. That and we have some of the best marksmen I've ever met... Back to the original topic, I would hope either I or the police would beat the daylights out of anyone stupid enough to use a pellet gun (or any firearm) in that manner....I agree with other posters that the response would be entirely situationally conditional.... Consider this: If the situation were instead in your home, would you take the time to determine the caliber of firearm of an intruder? I seriously doubt it. More likely than not, most of us if in an inescapeable situation wouldn't take the time to think about it...we would react the same as if confronted with a 9mm or 45 acp..... Just my thoughts on the matter.... __________________ "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."-Voltaire "Baaa or Freedom!" - Ted Nugent "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." - Ghandi "The Addiction to Guns, The only addiction to ever SAVE a life!"- Me

August 14, 2006, 05:56 PM	#47
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Anthony, Thanks. While a few "supermen" on this thread believe differently, most, including you and I, understand that a bbgun can kill. While a youth I killed many creatures with handgun bb and pellet pistols from pumps to co2's. Game rabbit sized was achievable if range and shot placement were ideal. Having field dressed many rabbits I understand the penetration capabilities. There is no doubt in my mind that an eyeball shot could be deadly even at pistol velocities PS Razorburn, I, as you suggested, have been shot many times as a child and dumb adolescent with a bb/pellet rifle and I can tell you right now that it hurt way more than a rubberband. Including one time that my friend had to pinch the bb out of my leg.........looked like a mini geyser of blood.

August 14, 2006, 07:04 PM	#49
riverkeeper Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 214	They've made their choice and I make mine...Darwin decides. Edit--the scenario indicates that the weapon appears to be real. The assumption reasonably can then be that it is and that we are legitimately in fear of bodily harm/death. If I KNEW it was a BB gun my response below would be different if only one gun person was involved. End of edit To some extent my responses depend on both the kid's age and situational environment...is it negative (gangish, hostile looks, night, harsh words, aggressive body postures, aggressive approach, how close) OR is it a more ambiguous or positive environment? I do NOT KNOW FOR SURE with the elementary age what I would do BUT in all but negative environments they might get a break unless they're with a really rowdy group .... I hope I'd challenge, charge &/or run quickly to cover and draw and proceed wisely. They've made their choice then I will make mine...Darwin decides. With older kids in either a negative or ambiguous environment it might start a game of Hardball with Hollowpoints. They've made their choice then I make mine...Darwin decides. __________________ "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel ........ 'All the wooly-headed thinking explains the happy howling.' -- r Last edited by riverkeeper; August 17, 2006 at 10:22 AM. Reason: Clarification of scenario ground rules.