.223 Military Brass

mkelly9779 · October 4, 2009, 08:29 PM

I have been loading for a while, but not .223. I picked up a bunch of brass from the range that I am unfamiliar with. I know when loading you have to make sure whether it is civilian or military. I believe lake city brass is military. Is there a website or link that shows all of the military stamps. Brass head stamps in question are

PPU 0 8 I have not seen this head stamp before.

S&B with a funny symbol after it, but it says .223 so I don't think it is military brass.

G.F.L but it says .223 so I don't think it is military brass.

WCC and I think it is 09

The PMC brass shows .223 on it but has a primer crimp so I don't know how to load it. I am assuming as commercial brass.

C J 9 2 I am assuming it is military brass, but I have never seen this head stamp before.

I also have one that is just a little symbol that I can't make out, but it says .223 rem so I believe it is commercial brass.

Fox1 · October 4, 2009, 09:18 PM

PPU = Prvi Partizan, 31000 Titovo, Uzice, Yugoslavia

S&B = Sellier & Bellot, Prague, Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic) Factory in Vlasim

GFL = Giulio Fiocchi, Lecco, Italy

WCC = Western Cartridge Company (Olin), East Alton, IL

PMC = Eldorado Cartridge Corporation (previously Patton and Morgan Corp., and Pan Metal Corp. ) PO Box 62508, Boulder City, NV 89006. The PMC headstamped ammunition for ECC has been made in Korea, the Philippines, Mexico and the Repuclic of South Africa.

CJ = China North Industries Corp., (NORINCO), 7A Yue Tan Nan Jie, Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

The 08, 09 and 92 usually indicate the year the cartridge was loaded.

HTH!

Go here to find these and more:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm

dmkim01 · October 4, 2009, 11:01 PM

It's not important whether a case was military or civilian. Whats important is when you do the first step of reloading, size the case all the way down, so that the entire case is sized to proper size. Then the next step of trimming the case to the proper length is important. If you have done these 2 steps, then you should end up with a same size/length case whether it was a military case or civilian case to begin with.

lmccrock · October 5, 2009, 06:29 AM

Military brass typically has a crimped primer, which requires an extra step to prep, namely reaming or swaging the pocket.

WCC is usually military (5.56 and crimped primer) but might not be.

The 5.56 brass might have thicker walls, so the internal capacity is less. So the pressure may be higher if the same powder chanrge from a 223 case is used.

Lee

**Unclenick** · October 5, 2009, 07:34 AM

Ditto the PMC primer pockets, though it is commercial. You will need either to ream or swage the crimps out before you can count on getting a primer to seat with normal force. Sometimes you can force them past, but that deforms the primer slightly, which is not good accuracy practice. Lots of tools are available for both methods.

As to loads, there is no fixed rule of thumb because their is no fixed amount of capacity difference between NATO spec and commercial .223 brass. You generally have to weigh the cases empty, then filled level to the surface with water (no meniscus in either direction), and take the difference to get case water capacity, and adjust the powder charge to that difference. Note that this is only valid after firing them in your gun's chamber and before resizing them again, so you would have to fire them all once with starting loads before making this measurement. Fired cases from different chambers can have different capacity that is not representative of what they will have coming from your chamber. The old Powley formulas let you calculate the charge difference for the IMR powders. It's not a directly proportional relationship. The NRA book, Handloading, has an article on those calculations if you can find a copy, but it's not any longer in print. The QuickLOAD software will do an even better job of letting you adjust the load to match either a pressure or a velocity, and has many more than just the IMR powders in its database.

If your not equipped with the software or other tools for making the calculations, your best bet to use the old rule of reducing your top charge by 10% and working the load back up in the different case, while watching for pressure signs. If this all seems like too much work, then just identify which case brand has the least capacity (that's what makes the highest pressure with a given charge) and work a load up in that brand, then use it with them all. The larger capacity cases will then give you lower pressure and velocity, but that's safe. The heaviest cases are most likely to have the least capacity, but you should double-check the water capacity of a few samples fire in your gun with starting loads to be sure, because the outside dimensions have some tolerance, too.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 5, 2009, 07:50 AM

personally ( I guess I'm a bit picky on my brass, but I shoot for accuracy, not just to spray lead down range ) straight wall cases & pistol cases that I'm not trying to shoot as accurately or at 100 yards or over I'm not as picky on, but unless you are just using these for "fun" shooting ( spray & pray rapid fire ) I'd sort out the brass by brand / headstamp, & not load it until I had enough for a box or a couple ( I wouldn't load any less than 100 personally )

you'll likely see point of impact shift between some of those brands of cases, & if you are trying to shoot groups with mixed brass it can drive you crazy...

I have a buddy that shoots at a public range, & picks up range brass, he took my suggestion, any unfamiliar brass he saves, if he doesn't like the brand, he saves them up, & gets rid of them at the local gun shows ( if you sort your brass, it's much easier to trade )

mkelly9779 · October 5, 2009, 12:24 PM

I know about removing the primer pocket crimps, and do not plan on using max loads. I am more interested in finding out which ones are the military brass because of their thicker casings. I am assuming PPU 08, CJ 92, WCC 09 and the Lake City brass. Is this correct?

Sport45 · October 6, 2009, 10:40 AM

Double tap

Sport45 · October 6, 2009, 10:41 AM

I think you're on the right track. You can also sort the cases by weight as the ones with thicker walls will be heavier.

October 4, 2009, 08:29 PM	#1
mkelly9779 Member Join Date: September 8, 2009 Posts: 16	.223 Military Brass I have been loading for a while, but not .223. I picked up a bunch of brass from the range that I am unfamiliar with. I know when loading you have to make sure whether it is civilian or military. I believe lake city brass is military. Is there a website or link that shows all of the military stamps. Brass head stamps in question are PPU 0 8 I have not seen this head stamp before. S&B with a funny symbol after it, but it says .223 so I don't think it is military brass. G.F.L but it says .223 so I don't think it is military brass. WCC and I think it is 09 The PMC brass shows .223 on it but has a primer crimp so I don't know how to load it. I am assuming as commercial brass. C J 9 2 I am assuming it is military brass, but I have never seen this head stamp before. I also have one that is just a little symbol that I can't make out, but it says .223 rem so I believe it is commercial brass.

October 4, 2009, 11:01 PM	#3
dmkim01 Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Posts: 2	it's not that important It's not important whether a case was military or civilian. Whats important is when you do the first step of reloading, size the case all the way down, so that the entire case is sized to proper size. Then the next step of trimming the case to the proper length is important. If you have done these 2 steps, then you should end up with a same size/length case whether it was a military case or civilian case to begin with.

October 5, 2009, 07:34 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Ditto the PMC primer pockets, though it is commercial. You will need either to ream or swage the crimps out before you can count on getting a primer to seat with normal force. Sometimes you can force them past, but that deforms the primer slightly, which is not good accuracy practice. Lots of tools are available for both methods. As to loads, there is no fixed rule of thumb because their is no fixed amount of capacity difference between NATO spec and commercial .223 brass. You generally have to weigh the cases empty, then filled level to the surface with water (no meniscus in either direction), and take the difference to get case water capacity, and adjust the powder charge to that difference. Note that this is only valid after firing them in your gun's chamber and before resizing them again, so you would have to fire them all once with starting loads before making this measurement. Fired cases from different chambers can have different capacity that is not representative of what they will have coming from your chamber. The old Powley formulas let you calculate the charge difference for the IMR powders. It's not a directly proportional relationship. The NRA book, Handloading, has an article on those calculations if you can find a copy, but it's not any longer in print. The QuickLOAD software will do an even better job of letting you adjust the load to match either a pressure or a velocity, and has many more than just the IMR powders in its database. If your not equipped with the software or other tools for making the calculations, your best bet to use the old rule of reducing your top charge by 10% and working the load back up in the different case, while watching for pressure signs. If this all seems like too much work, then just identify which case brand has the least capacity (that's what makes the highest pressure with a given charge) and work a load up in that brand, then use it with them all. The larger capacity cases will then give you lower pressure and velocity, but that's safe. The heaviest cases are most likely to have the least capacity, but you should double-check the water capacity of a few samples fire in your gun with starting loads to be sure, because the outside dimensions have some tolerance, too. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; October 5, 2009 at 07:42 AM.

October 5, 2009, 07:50 AM	#6
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	personally ( I guess I'm a bit picky on my brass, but I shoot for accuracy, not just to spray lead down range ) straight wall cases & pistol cases that I'm not trying to shoot as accurately or at 100 yards or over I'm not as picky on, but unless you are just using these for "fun" shooting ( spray & pray rapid fire ) I'd sort out the brass by brand / headstamp, & not load it until I had enough for a box or a couple ( I wouldn't load any less than 100 personally ) you'll likely see point of impact shift between some of those brands of cases, & if you are trying to shoot groups with mixed brass it can drive you crazy... I have a buddy that shoots at a public range, & picks up range brass, he took my suggestion, any unfamiliar brass he saves, if he doesn't like the brand, he saves them up, & gets rid of them at the local gun shows ( if you sort your brass, it's much easier to trade ) __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 6, 2009, 10:40 AM	#8
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Double tap __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

October 4, 2009, 09:18 PM	#2
Fox1 Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2008 Posts: 300	PPU = Prvi Partizan, 31000 Titovo, Uzice, Yugoslavia S&B = Sellier & Bellot, Prague, Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic) Factory in Vlasim GFL = Giulio Fiocchi, Lecco, Italy WCC = Western Cartridge Company (Olin), East Alton, IL PMC = Eldorado Cartridge Corporation (previously Patton and Morgan Corp., and Pan Metal Corp. ) PO Box 62508, Boulder City, NV 89006. The PMC headstamped ammunition for ECC has been made in Korea, the Philippines, Mexico and the Repuclic of South Africa. CJ = China North Industries Corp., (NORINCO), 7A Yue Tan Nan Jie, Beijing, Peoples Republic of China The 08, 09 and 92 usually indicate the year the cartridge was loaded. HTH! Go here to find these and more: http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm

October 5, 2009, 06:29 AM	#4
lmccrock Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2007 Location: Red Rock. TX Posts: 820	Military brass typically has a crimped primer, which requires an extra step to prep, namely reaming or swaging the pocket. WCC is usually military (5.56 and crimped primer) but might not be. The 5.56 brass might have thicker walls, so the internal capacity is less. So the pressure may be higher if the same powder chanrge from a 223 case is used. Lee

October 5, 2009, 12:24 PM	#7
mkelly9779 Member Join Date: September 8, 2009 Posts: 16	I know about removing the primer pocket crimps, and do not plan on using max loads. I am more interested in finding out which ones are the military brass because of their thicker casings. I am assuming PPU 08, CJ 92, WCC 09 and the Lake City brass. Is this correct?

October 6, 2009, 10:41 AM	#9
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I think you're on the right track. You can also sort the cases by weight as the ones with thicker walls will be heavier. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.