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Old January 15, 2019, 02:30 PM   #76
F. Guffey
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It’s not going to hurt the press.
I raised the ram on one of the most abused Rock Chucker press in existence today. When the ram hit bottom the handle continued moving and then suddenly and without warning the ram hit the floor. Conveniently my wife was near by so I could use her as an excuse if RCBS argued.

I called RCBS, they said they would send me another one and I got concerned and ask them; "ANOTHER WHAT?" because I was not going to accept a new press. I wanted the (my) same press.

Immediately they said they would sent me another ram with a repair kit, and that is what they did. I did not care if the ram was new and or used. Again, this press was used with other presses like Herter presses etc.

I did replace the handle on one of my Herter presses, my wife hit the handle with her 4 door 68 Bonneville with the 455 cubic inch engine. I tried to lecture her but it was not her that left the handle down.

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Old January 15, 2019, 02:50 PM   #77
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All I do is turn the die in a little at a time until the case fits in the bolt action with little or no resistance.

Call it what you like. It’s not going to hurt the press.
Works, you can see where its at and see though as well.

The shoulder measuring makes it quicker and a bit easier.
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Old January 15, 2019, 06:05 PM   #78
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The shoulder measuring makes it quicker and a bit easier.
So you do not know the distance from the shoulder in the die to the deck of the shell holder? And you do not know if the case won or the press won? And you do not know how to increase the presses ability to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing? and then there is that gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder?

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Old January 15, 2019, 11:48 PM   #79
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Why would you think that . If your using the closed bolt method in finding the distance from Closed Bolt to Shoulder . Measuring that distance isn't rocket science . From there you can size to that magic .002 of clearance . AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.
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Old January 16, 2019, 12:19 AM   #80
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Here's more to confuse or help clarify depending on what side of the fence you sit
https://precisionshooter.info/cam-ov...loading-press/
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Old January 16, 2019, 02:58 AM   #81
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Just sent this to Hornady

Quote:
Originally Posted by MG in email to Hornady
Hi , I have your L-N-L classic single stage press and It's worked as expected , I have no issues with it at this time . Well maybe one thing that is not so much an issue but more of a observation . That is the amount of flex and or deflection the press has when sizing a case . For this conversation I'll stick to the 308 Win case sizing . When adjusting the FL sizing die as suggested by Redding or RCBS the resulting sized case is sized .008+ smaller from head to datum point on the shoulder then I'd like . This results in case head separation on about the third reloading of the case . When I back the die out to get that .002 shoulder bump I'm looking for . The die and shell holder are no longer making contact when the ram is fully raised . If the die and shell holder don't make positive contact at the top of the stroke . My head to datum point measurement variance grows from +/- .001 to +/- .003 . FWIW I've resolved this issue years ago by using Redding competition shell holders .

That all said I'm writing you today to ask about cam over . There seems to be quite a few opinions about cam over from never do it , it puts to much stress on the press , to do it every time it's a must for consistently sized cases . The fact I use the Redding comp shell holders means I do use the cam over method with your press . I have mine set to have enough pressure to ensure the die and shell hold keep in contact through cam over but IMHO not to much to overly stress the press and linkage .

So now to the actual question/s

1) Is your classic single stage press designed to cam over ? Meaning that is what you suggest should happen on every stroke ?

2) If so should the die and shell holder stay in contact with one another through the cam over process ?

3) Why on both 1 & 2

4) Does cam over hurt and or overly stress the press be it the press as a whole or the linkage between the ram and arm ?

5) Can the press be used as designed/properly if you just screw the die down far enough to not allow for cam over ? Meaning the press handle/arm has a solid stop at the top of the stroke ?

Thank you
MG
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:20 AM   #82
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Seems sort of strange to me that folks like RCBS tell you to cam over the press, but the process is picked apart from every angle by so many. I've been using the cam over method for over 50 yrs...and you know what ? I've never worn out a press !
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Old January 16, 2019, 08:00 AM   #83
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The artical from Precision Shooter covered all . It comes down to removing the slop , then again it comes down to how far down do you screw the die to the point of stress . I guess some will adding to much and some not enough , not enough and seeing light between shellholder and die with the case sized in the die will show not enough slop is removed . It's when to much is set up .

I use the Competition Shellholders and set up to remove slop not over tighten , it's by feel and I guess it comes down to , hard to some is not enough , alittle more is better. Like you listed your measurements will let you know. Thanks Again , made good reading but the battle I can see will still go on .

Chris
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Old January 16, 2019, 11:17 AM   #84
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I guess some will adding to much and some not enough , not enough and seeing light between shellholder and die with the case sized in the die will show not enough slop is removed . It's when to much is set up .
I do not guess; and I do not measure light. When the ram is raised and the die is adjusted an additional 1/4 turn after contact the press is adjusted to return the case to minimum length or as 'we say full length size the case. The gap indicates the die did not make it to the shell holder even though the die was adjusted to eliminated the gap when the ram was raised. The lack of curiosity on the reloaders part is not enough to cause the reloader to wonder why the shell holder never made it to the bottom of the die.

One term absent from the reloaders vocabulary is "the case's ability to resist sizing". If there is a gap the press, die and shell holder with lube failed to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. I could ask; SO! "What is a reloader to do when the case has too much resistance to sizing?" there is a cute little saying by reloaders claiming they anneal their cases after sizing 'every time!' And then they claim they 'do it' because of accuracy and precision. And then there is the one that claims 'we' should do like bench resters, he claims bench resters full length size their cases after every firing. And then he claims bench resters have been doing it for decades. And then? He goes on to say they insist on loose necks; straight away, I want all the bullet hold I can get. If only there was a method and or technique to measure bullet hold in pounds: Wait! There is and has always been a method for measuring bullet hold; problem, bullet hold can only be measured in pounds but now the bullet seater uses a gage that measure in pounds as in hydraulic pressure, the old way used and still does use springs. And there is no conversion from pounds to tensions. again I have tension gages with no method to convert to tensions.

To increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing the die must be lowered or the case must be raised. To raise the case to increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing I have shimmed the case up by placing shims between the deck of the shell holder and the bottom of the die.

And then there is a benefit to the shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head a reloader that believes he needs a small base die can use the shim when trying to determine if a small base die is necessary and there is nire.

Reloaders have thought all problems are solved by grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die. I have never found that to be true even though I am one of the few reloaders that own three grinders that are used to grind pilots, angles and gages to length. It is not necessary to grind the base of the die if the reloader understand the concept of shimming the case up and off the deck of the shell holder, When sizing cases for short chambers as in being shorter than minimum length the reloader can shorten the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head when using RCBS shell holders.

For the 8th time a reloader can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .010" with a shim. A reloader can increase the length of the case .010, by placing shims between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder.

Again, I have one set of Redding Competition shell holders, I paid $5.00 for the set, 3 of the shell holders are off by .001" each, to accomplish the same task with feeler gage I can size a case to 20 different length from the shoulder of the case to the case head all of that without the expensive Redding shell holders or grinding the die and or shell holder.

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Old January 16, 2019, 11:41 AM   #85
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Not everyone has the tools or the background to use them properly , remember all are not seasoned reloaders , using a feeled gage is a simple fix but takes time using the feeler gage on every reload . It's not like setting points on a distributor way back when , when life was simple . The explanation on cam over was pretty clear . Everyone not having problems with their reloads are pretty set in their ways . I do enjoy reading other methods . I must admit , sometimes you sure do light a fire under me , all is good though , makes life interesting . Be Well.

Chris
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Old January 16, 2019, 11:47 AM   #86
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seems to me a some people over complicate what is nothing more than a simple linear measurement. I bet Prof Young could teach his 6 year old grandson how to do it. Take a fired case, measure it with any comparitor. Then subtract .002 or .003, adjust the die down to get that measurement after sizing and you're done. No camming over or any other nonsense required
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Old January 16, 2019, 12:54 PM   #87
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Then subtract .002 or .003, adjust the die down to get that measurement after sizing and you're done. No camming over or any other nonsense required
What does cam over mean to you/everyone ? I always considered it as the press linkage caming over center under pressure/load . I now understand it to mean the press linkage cams over center period regardless if the die and shell holder make contact ?? Is the latter true ? If so all a press manufacture is asking you when asking to cam over is to make sure the press completes a full stroke . I can't think of a more basic thing to understand when reloadding . " set your die and make sure you do a full and complete stoke of the press arm/ram "

I still think people are getting hung up on the technical definition of cam over rather then what that process is intended to accomplish in a press that allows it .

I'd be interested if any of you would be willing to email RCBS and ask about cam over in there presses . If they are designed to do so , if doing so shortens the life of the press and why did they design it that way ? I believe the answer to those questions should solve the debate . I get that some will still believe what they want regardless as to the facts . Those people just lose a little more credibility in my mind . We all have those in life whom we listen intently to and others we just wish they'd stop talking . The latter tend to be those unwilling to learn new things or except change .
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Old January 16, 2019, 01:06 PM   #88
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My thinking is maybe the die instruction have been around much longer then the cam over press ??? May be why following the die directions when using a pess that cams over puts to much stress on that type of press ??
thinking? may be why? You do not know but if you did you would know the instructions came out at the same time with the press, some presses were sold with both sets of instructions. And then there is your lack of ability to understand the Auto advance press, if the press cams over the ram changes directions and far beyond your paygrade is the automatic transmission, it has forward and reverse thanks to the one way clutch.

Again; I have Piggy Back attachments for the Rock Chucker press, the Piggy back attachment is auto advance. The Piggy Back 11 attachments will not tolerate the ram changing directions.

And then there is JIC as in 'just in case', I have a spare one way clutch. Why would RCBS build an attachment with a one way clutch?

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Old January 16, 2019, 01:22 PM   #89
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Quote:
I'd be interested if any of you would be willing to email RCBS and ask about cam over in there presses . If they are designed to do so , if doing so shortens the life of the press and why did they design it that way
after all of these years reloaders are going to remove their hands from their pockets and or keyboard?

Before RCBS there was VISE GRIPS, the company in the mid '30s identified LEVER LOCK as a design. I started in the oil field at 14 when a crew same up with one crewman short out of 4. The one thing I never failed to do was wrap the handle of a tool with the chain they called a 'binder',

One crew member had to quit when a binder unloaded on him. Leaver lock or cam over, he could not afford another metal plate in his head.

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Old January 16, 2019, 01:56 PM   #90
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Good story Guff
Going back to cam over , cam over is how hard you lock down the die on the shellholder. It's not supposed to put stress on the press only remove ALL the play . By using the feeler gage to remove the wiggle room or to raise the deck height I can see how it will work . The main purpose in cam over is to remove play , some presses with alot of linkage may be harder to do so . Using my press the RockChucker Supreme what ever the difference is between just RockChucker I don't know . It's pretty simple for me to remove the play an accurately size to the same measurement. Even though you bust my balls every once an awile , my respect for you has risen knowing you worked in the oil fields at 14 . Nothing came easy I'm sure . Respectfully.

Chris
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Old January 16, 2019, 03:41 PM   #91
F. Guffey
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I'd be interested if any of you would be willing to email RCBS and ask about cam over in there presses
I would be more interested in what Unclkenick has put away in the form of information. If there are two reloaders on this forum that has the instructions with the dates of printing it is Unclenick and myself.



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Old January 16, 2019, 10:08 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey
I would be more interested in what Unclkenick has put away in the form of information. If there are two reloaders on this forum that has the instructions with the dates of printing it is Unclenick and myself.
I think an appropriate addendum to you statement is, if Hornady, RCBS, Redding, or Dillon needs archived info, they call you or Unclenick...
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Old January 16, 2019, 11:35 PM   #93
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I still have the safety and operating instructions for my newest rock chucker. They are undated, but the press is at least 23 years old. It has no instructions on actual case sizing, and no mention of cam over.

In the introduction it does say "As the handle pressure increases, the leverage is compounded, building up maximum work pressure in the main ram as it travels the full length of the stroke"

In the safety section it says "If any unusual resistance is encountered when moving the operating handle, STOP IMMEDIATELY and investigate the cause. To proceed against unusual resistance may damage the equipment and/or cause serious personal injury!"

Also found the instructions for the only Hornady dies i ever bought. Under instructions for adjusting full length die it says, 1. Raise the press ram to it's highest positon without camming over" It goes on to say set the die on the top of the shell holder.
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Old January 17, 2019, 02:29 AM   #94
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1. Raise the press ram to it's highest positon without camming over" It goes on to say set the die on the top of the shell holder.
That right there is very interesting . It would be hard but not impossible to hold the handle/ram just short of cam over while adjusting the die . Maybe make some sort of temporary stop on the press while adjusting the die ?? It's also interesting if that also means they want the die and shell holder to make contact before cam over to ensure during cam over you put that extra load on the press/linkage . Things that make you go hmm

EDIT : here is Hornady's instructions on adjusting the sizing die in there single stage press

https://press.hornady.com/assets/pct...structions.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornady in link above
Insert and adjust the sizing die.
Take note, these presses slightly cam over to allow you to exert maximum pressure with reduced effort. Screw die down until it is firmly against the shell holder. The sizing die must be set when the ram is at the top of the stroke and not after the ram has cammed over.
Which makes me think they do want that extra load on the press when camming over . Sounds to me they want you to cam over with pressure/load on the die and shell holder . Sounds like the design is to allow maximum load with out needing to stand on the arm . It seems to me it's basically saying the same point I was trying to make earlier . The cam over design allows you to get a consistent leverage/pressure each stroke regardless of case size or type or who is operating the press , there body type , strength or feel for the process . A light cam over is going to produce the same result regardless of who is using the press .

Which would make sense really needing consistency with all the different cartridges being reloaded and all the different types of people using the product . It would be smart to build into the design something that takes the human element out of the equation.
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Old January 17, 2019, 08:24 AM   #95
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My LNL AP cams over about .0004. My Co-ax zero.
I just measured both with a dial gauge.
For what that's worth.
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Old January 17, 2019, 10:14 AM   #96
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Quote:
1. Raise the press ram to it's highest positon without camming over" It goes on to say set the die on the top of the shell holder.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

That right there is very interesting . It would be hard but not impossible to hold the handle/ram just short of cam over while adjusting the die
the cam over press is also know as the bump press' problem, reloaders are so infatuated with bump as in 'bump the shoulder back' they have no ideal where the term came from.

If the press is a bump/cam over press the die must be adjusted to the ram at the highest point of travel. OR: they are required to add the amount of cam over.

Quote:
That right there is very interesting
Interesting? Forum members have been claiming they have been reloading for many years, I believe it is most interesting they know little to nothing about adjusting the press. If the press is adjusted and the press is a cam over press it is adjusted when the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder the first time the die contacts the shell holder the press is not adjusted to size the case (if the press is a cam over press.

To obtain 'the magic .002" the die must be lowered .002" after contact/before cam over. If the reloader chooses to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to rewsist sizing he will raise the ram then lower the die 1/4 turn. I could say think about it but lowering the die while the die is contacting the shell holder ciuld be difficult so I suggest the reloader lower the ram/shell holder to make adjusting the die effortless.

Again: Think about it: In the old days my favorite dies had a hex head for adjusting the die with a boxed wrench.

Quote:
That right there is very interesting
If the reloader makes adjustments to the die after the ram cams over he must add the amount of cam over to the adjustment, I know that is mind blowing but all a reloaders has to understand the ram lowers after the first bump and is at the lowest point between the two bumps.

Yes, my friend did not know his A2 had .017" cam over so he added 1/2 turn to the die when he adjusted the die. Meaning he lowered the die .034"and never knew the amount of cam over had to be added.

Thirdly: knowing his press had .017" cam over he could have adjusted the die to the shell holder when the ram was half way between the 'two bumps', that would be the first bump when raising the ram and the second bump when the ram is lowered. I could say that would be automatic but I am not very successful when I suggest reloaders think about it.

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Old January 17, 2019, 10:34 AM   #97
F. Guffey
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Quote:
1. Raise the press ram to it's highest positon without camming over" It goes on to say set the die on the top of the shell holder.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

That right there is very interesting . It would be hard but not impossible to hold the handle/ram just short of cam over while adjusting the die
the cam over press is also know as the bump press' problem, reloaders are so infatuated with bump as in 'bump the shoulder back' they have no ideal where the term came from.

If the press is a bump/cam over press the die must be adjusted to the ram at the highest point of travel. OR: they are required to add the amount of cam over.

Quote:
That right there is very interesting
Interesting? Forum members have been claiming they have been reloading for many years, I believe it is most interesting they know little to nothing about adjusting the press. If the press is adjusted and the press is a cam over press it is adjusted when the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder the first time the die contacts the shell holder the press is not adjusted to size the case (if the press is a cam over press.

To obtain 'the magic .002" the die must be lowered .002" after contact/before cam over. If the reloader chooses to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to rewsist sizing he will raise the ram then lower the die 1/4 turn. I could say think about it but lowering the die while the die is contacting the shell holder ciuld be difficult so I suggest the reloader lower the ram/shell holder to make adjusting the die effortless.

Again: Think about it: In the old days my favorite dies had a hex head for adjusting the die with a boxed wrench.

Quote:
That right there is very interesting
If the reloader makes adjustments to the die after the ram cams over he must add the amount of cam over to the adjustment, I know that is mind blowing but all a reloaders has to understand the ram lowers after the first bump and is at the lowest point between the two bumps.

Yes, my friend did not know his A2 had .017" cam over so he added 1/2 turn to the die when he adjusted the die. Meaning he lowered the die .034"and never knew the amount of cam over had to be added.

Thirdly: knowing his press had .017" cam over he could have adjusted the die to the shell holder when the ram was half way between the 'two bumps', that would be the first bump when raising the ram and the second bump when the ram is lowered. I could say that would be automatic but I am not very successful when I suggest reloaders think about it.

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Old January 17, 2019, 12:09 PM   #98
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Don't stress your press, or this may happen. Includes a little discussion on grey/white iron.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...n-half.845286/
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Old January 17, 2019, 01:38 PM   #99
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Wow that's crazy , can't even think of how that could happen . Reminds me of a time when I was younger , just a we-lad and I broke my uncles 7 iron when hitting a golf ball at the range . He was made saying " how could you even do that ? you had to have slammed it into the ground " I told him it was just a regular swing but he refused to believe me . A couple days later we were all sitting around talking about the rattle snake that was by his car a week earlier and how he used one of his golf clubs to beat it to death . BING the light bulb went on and I gave him all kinds of crap for making me feel so bad about breaking his golf club now knowing he likely cracked it and I was the unlucky one to use it next .

Anyways , I'd bet there was something else going on with that press other then a little extra resistance on the down stroke way before it broke . Banged it with something , dropped it . Who knows what or when but unlikely it was just the cam over type of pressure alone that caused that failure .
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Old January 17, 2019, 03:35 PM   #100
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Been working on machinery for over half a decade and yes anything can fail. They will break for no reason at all but they will break more often if they are regularly over stressed or abused.
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