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Old January 4, 2019, 10:53 PM   #1
kilotanker22
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270 wsm, H-1000

Beginning load developement tonight for a new 270wsm.

First surprising thing to me. With 130 grain game king. At Coal 2.85 I am Jamed into the lands. By the time I got off of the lands .030 or so I am at 2.767.... I was surprised to see such a short throat. The last 270 wsm I had. With same bullet, I was out around 2.85 .030 off the lands.

Anywho, this depth actually works out pretty well. The entire case neck has purchase on bearing surface. And the bullet's boat tail begins right where the neck transions into the shoulder.

I am using all brand new Win. brass for this rifle. And CCI 250 primers.

Now for powder. I am starting with Magpro, and H1000.

With Magpro, Accurate's data begins with a start load of 68 grains. And Max of 75.5. With my last 270wsm I had excellent results. Between 72.5 and 74 grains with same bullet. However this bullet is loaded a little deeper and the throat is shorter in this rifle. Also neck sized cases from my other 270 wsm will not Chamber in the new one. So I am assuming this chamber is a bit tighter and starting at 70 grains and will work up in .5 grain incriments. I know that Powders like Magpro will perform beat with around 100 percent load density, but I doubt I will be able to fit enough Magpro into this case to get to 100 percent load density without pressure problems. Of course we'll find out.

I can't find any load data with H-1000 and this particular bullet. So I compared Speer's data with the 130 grain SPBT with Hogdon. Speer shows a max load of 71.7 grains. Hodgdon shows a starting load of 71 grains and Max load at 73 grains. Their max load was listed at like 58,000 psi for pressure. So I am assuming that it was their max load, because of load density. I started at 71 grains h-1000 and it is already barely compressed. Basically perfectly fills the case when bullet is seated. I like the way that feels with a starting charge.

I guess what I need is advice with the H-1000. I don't think that in most situations. You would fit enough H-1000 into my cases to cause severe pressure, but that remains to be seen. What have been your results with H1000 in 270 wsm with 130 grain bullets? I am wondering if I won't see the velocity with H-1000 because I can't get enough powder into the case.

I will shoot 3 round groups in half grain incriments until I begin to see pressure signs. Try to find where the Accuracy nodes are. I will have to Chronograph them later. My Chrono is broken for now. Well this has been too long winded. Have fun all. And thanks in advance for any experience.
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Old January 5, 2019, 01:28 PM   #2
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Hodgdon’s online load data shows many loads with h-1000 from 110 to 160 grain bullets. Both the 130 Barnes tsx and the 130 hornady soft point have max loads of 73 grains compressed, the Barnes generating a bit more pressure of course, but the velocity isn’t amazing, less than 3200 FPS which is standard 270 win territory and isn’t realizing the potential of the wsms greater case capacity. Then again as a standard 270 win and .300 win mag shooter I never did get the appeal of the wsm cartridges. In hodgdons data h 1000 comes more into its own with the heaviest bullets in the .270 wsm, they’re using compressed loads all the way up to the 160 nosler partition.
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Old January 5, 2019, 01:43 PM   #3
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Forget the whole "off the lands" thing until you've worked up the load. The "off the lands" stuff is load tweaking technique only.
Max loads of H1000 are compressed loads. Nothing to worry about but they do start being compressed long before the Max load. So while the Start load isn't considered compressed, it filling the case completely isn't unusual either.
"...I am Jamed(SIC) into the lands..." Read your manual. It'll tell you the Max OAL. Don't think in terms of 'depth' either. Think OAL. That's Max of 2.860" measured from the pointy bit to the flat bit. Sounds like you might be measuring or reading your calipres incorrectly. Unless you have a short chamber. That's highly unlikely though.
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Old January 5, 2019, 01:48 PM   #4
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Nosler load data seems to indicate much more velocity than hodgdon (with all cartridges except, most conspicuously, weatherby cartridges - perhaps the new line of nosler cartridges needed the weatherbys to slow down a bit ). They’re highest velocity powder was rl 22 for 130 grain billets, which is not surprising, that’s the powder that gives the highest velocity with 140 and 150 grainers in my standard 270. Their most accurate load was with imr 4350. Hodgons highest velocity 130 grain powders were the new enduron imr 7977 (old school 7828 wasn’t too far behind and i absolutely love that powder) and win supreme 780. H-1000 really doesn’t seem like the best fit. It’ll work fine for sure, it’s temp insensitive which is nice, and has a reputation for low standard deviations, but the data suggest that it’s just a bit slower burn rate than ideal (I have no idea if h-1000 burns “clean” - if not bear in mind that great volumes of slower than optimal powder often result in more fouling and dirty case necks - the most extreme example of this in my experience was playing with h-50 bmg in a .300 win mag - suffice to say it’s much to slow and those cases were filthy - not a fast enough pressure spike to fully obturate and seal off the chamber perhaps - actually was a super accurate load tho, 82 grains heavily compressed under a 208 hornady, but only about 2600 fps and a muzzle flash like nobody’s business)
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Old January 5, 2019, 02:35 PM   #5
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T. O'Heir,

At Case over all length of 2.85 I was jammed into the lands. Thats resizing a case. trimming it, debur and chamfer. Cut a little sliver out of the neck to reduce tension on the bullet. started the bullet into the dummy case. inserted into chamber. closed the bolt. Bolt had to be basically forced closed. The sliver I cut out of the case neck prior to this allowed the neck to hold enough tension on the bullet to hold it where it was in the neck, but not so much that the bolt being closed could not push the bullet into the neck. After closing the bolt I remove the case from the chamber and measure OAL. That was at 2.85". I seated thee bullet deeper .002 at a time until I met almost no resistance. Then backed it off another .030... and remeasured. Thats where I got a measurement of 2.767. At Max COAL I was most definitely jammed into the lands. I tested that theory with another dummy case. This time resized and just seated the bullet to 2.85. The bolt would not close on that dummy round either.

Max case OAL in this rifle with that bullet is jammed into the lands
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Old January 5, 2019, 06:43 PM   #6
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T. O'Heir,

I tested this with another bullet today. I used 140 grain Nosler Solid Base Ballistic tip. COAL measurement at the lands was 2.805.

Also tested the Sierra 130 grain game king again. And came up with the same number as last night. Bullet seated to the lands was 2.797.

This rifle definitely has a short throat.
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Old January 6, 2019, 09:31 PM   #7
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Instead of the full range of loads from minimum to max. I started at minimum and loaded at .5 grain incriments. Stopping in the mid range level.

I should have time to shoot this this coming weekend. I really need to get a new Chronograph. Along with brass performance should give me an id a of what's going on when the pin falls.

I have only ever loaded for one other rifle with such a short throat. It was a 300 win mag. I ran I to pressure troubles way before max loads in that rifle. Across many powders.

I have a feeling that this rifle will be the same. That 300 win mag shot unusally fast for what it was.
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Old January 6, 2019, 09:57 PM   #8
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Kilotanker22,

Sierra's manual has the COL for that bullet at 2.775", so it sounds like the ogive is a little short and you probably want to try their recommended value. That will put you at 0.022" off the lands, which is a perfectly serviceable value. The Sierra data for H1000 is 67.7 grains to start and 72.5 grains maximum. Hodgdon's online data is for a Hornady 130-grain SP bullet seated to 2.730" COL. It is 71.0 grains to start and 73.0 grains (compressed) for maximum. The greater seating depth may be important to the extra half grain of powder, but I expect the pressure difference is only a little over 1%. The bottom line here is that your new seating depth is probably fine, but don't go over 73 grains.

Incidentally, Hodgdon also uses a Winchester case and LRM primer. Sierra does the same.

My Sierra manual is not the newest on the planet, but if you email Sierra with your cartridge and bullet choice, they will usually send you that page from their load data for free.
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Old January 6, 2019, 10:18 PM   #9
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I’ve never experienced a rifle with shorter than standard throat but I have owned one with longer than standard throat, it was a weatherby vanguard .300 win mag. Not weatherby mag (I know the weatherby cartridges have tons of freebore), Winchester mag. I had to seat bullets out waaaaay out there to touch the lands. Was always exceeding max loads to get max velocity, no pressure signs, hated anything lighter than 180 grains, I suspect too much jump and or not enough neck tension
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Old January 7, 2019, 12:25 AM   #10
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Thanks unclenick, I have a new Hodgdon load data book, and a nosler book. I loaded with the 130 grain and H-1000up to 72 grains. Will go shoot them this coming weekend.

I also bought some Magpro and some 140 Grain Nosler BT. Oddly enough Nosler's Max load of H-1000 is lower than Hodgdon's Starting load for the 140. I Loaded these up to 68.5 grains of H-1000. All of these loads were compressed.
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Old January 7, 2019, 05:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Forget the whole "off the lands" thing until you've worked up the load. The "off the lands" stuff is load tweaking technique only.
Max loads of H1000 are compressed loads. Nothing to worry about but they do start being compressed long before the Max load. So while the Start load isn't considered compressed, it filling the case completely isn't unusual either.
"...I am Jamed(SIC) into the lands..." Read your manual. It'll tell you the Max OAL. Don't think in terms of 'depth' either. Think OAL. That's Max of 2.860" measured from the pointy bit to the flat bit. Sounds like you might be measuring or reading your calipres incorrectly. Unless you have a short chamber. That's highly unlikely though.
This really need some explanation. Off the lands is critical.

If you load up to COAL and it gets marked up, it is in the lands.

Most COAL will have you out of the lands so its the right starting point.

Some guns/chambers do not read the manual and wind up sticking into the lands at COAL.

So yes, you do need to know its an issue.

.020 off the lands is a good place to start - nothing wrong with tuning the COAL when you hit a node, that can be closer or further but you sure want to know where you are.

Also at times the Ogive can be quite different from bullet to bullet, what is fine on 40 can be not good on 1. Always a good idea to look at the bullet any time you take one out of the gun (cease fire) and see if its got marked.
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Old January 7, 2019, 05:33 PM   #12
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Kilo T:

This is an area where Hornady and or Sierra really shine in. They test those bullets with those powders for accuracy, not just what moved the bullet down the barrel.

While not the only answer, both show multiple powders for a bullet (and lots of types) that were accceaible.

That gives you a good idea of what powders would be the ones to focut on vs a it sort of works.

If another powder is in the burn area, you can look into it (usually the mfg will have data) and starting low and working up, you can use something like R-17 that does not have a lot of data out there (quite close to 4350 powders).

You don't want to jump into the deep end but a low load of 4350 charge and work up is a way to go. An example is R17 that is NOT listed for the 7.5 Swiss, but that is the exact powder that they do use for the GP11 round. Also the 4350s would be good to try for that cartridge (and there is data there for that)

Starting out its good to go with one of their listed powders.
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Old January 7, 2019, 09:03 PM   #13
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With both bullets. Loading to the length suggested by the respective manufacturers. "Nosler BT" And The data I got from Western for their Magpro powder and the 130 grain Sierra. In either case I can not close the bolt without leaving clear lands marks On the bullets.

I have been doing this long enough to be able to tell when a bullet is jammed into the lands. And now I am not reading my caliper wrong. (A ten year old kid could read one.)

I have also loaded for another 270 wsm. One with a much longer throat.....
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Old January 8, 2019, 03:02 PM   #14
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Here is a photo I took today while retesting my data and changing some things slightly. I used 3 dummy cases. All trimmed to 2.090. Used a dremel cutting wheel to slice down through the necks to give enough tension to hold the bullet, but not enough to really jam the bullets into the lands. The idea is to allow the lands to push the bullet into the case with little resistance. Carefully extract the case and measure them.

Then I took and measured each type of bullet until I had 3 of each that were the exact same length. Then did my bolt close test.

The sierra Game king 130 grain came out to 2.762-2.764 COAL for all 3 dummy rounds after closing the bolt on them.

The Nosler BT solid base came out to 2.775-2.776 for all 3 dummy rounds after closing the bolt on them. At these measurements I colored the bullet with a blue marker and reinserted them into the chamber and closed the bolt. On all bullets I had clear lands marks. (dry erase marker) So I set my seater .030 deeper and tested again. This time no marks.

With both bullets the final COAL length with the compressed loads of H-1000 were about .005 longer than the non compressed Magpro loads. Finished lengths were 2.744 and 2.750 for the nosler BT solid base. The length for the Sierra 130 grain game kings were 2.730 for magpro and 2.733 for the compressed load of H-1000.

The COAL measurement for the Photo was 2.764.
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File Type: jpg 270 wsm 130 gr sierra.jpg (78.9 KB, 10 views)
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Old January 8, 2019, 03:10 PM   #15
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Yep, real life wipes out the paper data each time.

Mostly paper data is decent, often shorter than you want, but it goes the other way as well.

I don't even bother with the book lengths anymore.

TO get rough I use the tool my brother built.

For spot on I use a bullet in a sized case. I have some bullets that grip the lands no matter what so I measure before they go in, when they come out and if needed tap em out with a rod.
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Old January 8, 2019, 03:30 PM   #16
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Kilotanker

I absolutely believe you about the short
Throat (I’ve owned a rifle with a freakishly long throat compared to spec). I can’t believe the factory would let such a mistake leave and be sold. This seems like a big liability/a disaster waiting to happen. I say this because, based on what you’re describing, factory ammunition should be either unchamberable (good) or generate significant overpressure. I take it this rifle has never been fed factory ammo? I suppose it’s maybe fortunate than the person shooting it is a hand loader who would notice this sort of thing. Have you contacted the manufacturer about this problem? It is definitely a problem, and for all we know not the only defectively chambered rifle to leave the factory.
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Old January 8, 2019, 03:46 PM   #17
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Roadkill2228,

I have a box of factory ammunition that does indeed chamber in this rifle. Factory ammunition has never been fired through this rifle though. The factory ammo I have is Federal Power shok with 130 grain speer Hot core. They are loaded to a length of 2.660 Which coincidentally is only .008 off of the lands in this rifle with that bullet. I also loaded some up with the same bullet today over top of some H-1000 seated to 2.648. .020 off of the lands.

I got it from a friend that I know really well. His father in law bought it new, and fired 5 rounds through it. (handloads) just to sight it in. His father in law then passed away a few years ago. The rifle sat in a safe until I traded my friend a 308 for it.

I am not sure Smith and Wesson will Do anything about it since I am not the original owner. Being that I intend to load all my ammunition for this rifle. I dont really mind. I dont see a reason it would be unsafe. Thats why I loaded beginning at minimum charges and stopping well below max charges. Until I have the opportunity to shoot it and see how it behaves.

I have only ever had 1 other rifle with a very short throat. It was a 300 win mag. It showed over pressure signs well before max charges. It also shot unusually fast for caliber. It was also an absolute tack driver for the guy I sold it to.

I think that Maybe I will send TC/S&W an email and see what they say.
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Old January 8, 2019, 04:18 PM   #18
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I just called TC. Explained the issue to them. They said that I shouldn't have trouble getting to 2.800. They also recommended that I don't shoot it. They asked that I send it to them and they provided me with a shipping label.

LOL, now watch me get it back with a throat that is a mile long.....
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Old January 8, 2019, 04:47 PM   #19
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The only thing that gets me is this. I feel like TC wants me to send it back as a precaution of course.

Even though this rifle has a very short throat, I am still withing specs (I think) I cant imagine that that the throat not allowing me to seat the bullet within .100 of Saami Maximum is really an issue. After all the 2.860 is Maximum Cartridge length right?

Being shorter than that should be a non issue as long as I am not over pressure. And my bullets bearing surface is not seated below the case mouth. Also I have Factory ammunition that is loaded even shorter than The rounds I have loaded......

As I shoot this rifle more and more, the throat will erode and get longer anyway?

The real question now is whether to actually send it back or not...
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Old January 8, 2019, 05:02 PM   #20
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Saami minimum Cartridge overall length is 2.560. I am well within Saami specification for COAL.....

Besides I was thinking and wouldnt most factory ammunition be loaded on the shorter side rather than toward the max? So that they would chamber in most rifles without hitting the lands?
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Old January 9, 2019, 12:11 AM   #21
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That’s cool that they responded that quick and seem willing to do something about the situation even though it’s not a new rifle and has had hand loaded ammo run through it.

Also good to hear it digests factory ammo.

Coincidentally, the rifle I once owned with a much longer than saami spec throat was a .300 win mag, weatherby vanguard series 1. I suspect that the long jump is why it did only mediocre accuracy with anything less than 200 grain Bullets.

I found federal blue box 130 soft points to be the most accurate factory ammo in my .270 Winchester in the days before I handloaded. To be honest I’ve only ever matched it, can’t say I’ve beaten it. Mines a savage 111 package gun and it will legitimately keep those federal blue box rounds under an inch at 100 yards.
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Old January 9, 2019, 12:16 AM   #22
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And yes, factory ammo will certainly be seated on the shorter side, never longer than saami spec coal. I imagine this rifle is unusually accurate with factory ammo based on what you’re saying. .008 off the lands is crazy close for factory tho, and with flat base soft points I can’t imagine any benefit. Come to think of it, I do wonder if it would still be in overpressure territory shooting standard length ammo loaded with monometals (Barnes) or super tough thick jacketed bullets. These types like to jump.
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Old January 9, 2019, 12:38 AM   #23
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Well I guess we will see if I have any serious pressure problems this weekend. I have those federal factory stuff I will shoot in it as well as my hand loads.

None of my loads are less than a grain below max right now. Till I see how it goes.

I suspect it will shoot well also. I would send it back to TC, but I am still well within spec (as far as coal)

I am also curious if other TC Venture rifles having shorter throats is common. I planned on picking up a TC Venture Weather shield in .270 WIN anyway. Something I will watch for.

If it shoots well I will be happy. I got this rifle for deer hunting ting mostly. And ranges giggles. Just wish it had longer than 22 inch barrel. I am gonna try to find a Chronograph to buy locally this weekend and go shoot it.
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Old January 12, 2019, 01:31 PM   #24
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I should b able to shoot this tomorrow. I will let everyone know how I make out
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Old January 12, 2019, 01:46 PM   #25
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The time to check for over pressure issues is in July or August...
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