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Old July 5, 2018, 11:57 AM   #101
TunnelRat
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I could argue you've been repeating yourself as well. I responded this time because in the context of your metaphor I think the argument for focused exercise still works. My use of ad nauseum wasn't meant as an insult, more as a recognition that this argument isn't going anywhere. Let's call the whole thing off.

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Old July 5, 2018, 04:17 PM   #102
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Well we'll use the gym analogy one more time. What you are seeking is to balance your muscle groups. Often you see young guys working the hell out of their biceps because they like the looks of the "big guns". When your tricep is actually two thirds of your arm.
If you have such a muscular imbalance not only does it mean although you have a big ball on the top your arm. Your arm is weak. No matter how much you like to look at that big ball on the top of your arm. Your arm is basically weak. And the imbalance in muscle strength will lead to eventual injury. Because one part of your arm is stronger than another.
So when you go to actually utilize your arm the big bicep won't help your lack of well developed triceps. Having realized your weak in this area yes you do in fact target the triceps to increase the whole arms strength. And make the arm truly strong.
Not just in pulling movements that the biceps are utilized for. But for pushing movements also. Which are for the triceps. But of course you need to realize the imbalance is there to fix it.
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Old July 18, 2018, 08:51 AM   #103
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Glad to see the old Point VS Aimed fire debate is alive and well.
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Old July 18, 2018, 09:30 AM   #104
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using your sights in a gunfight is not always necessary or even desirable for effectively placing rounds.” In a panic situation, where an officer is caught in a threat by surprise and perhaps overwhelmed by emotion, he or she may not be able to respond with sufficient control to attain a sight picture in the fraction of time available
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Old July 19, 2018, 09:47 PM   #105
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I don't make it to these forum often enough and have missed most of this thread.

I know a couple of guys over the net that display remarkable ability point shooting at close ranges. IMO there is a crossover point where aimed sight supersedes point shooting. At, as I've heard it called, bad breath distances it's hard to disagree with point shooting but at the 7 yards distance often quoted in shooting data I want to be using sights. I've shot tens of thousands rounds sighted shooting gun games and feel more comfortable seeing my sights aligned and on target. YMMV.
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Old July 20, 2018, 12:56 AM   #106
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Self defense guns art naught be aimed, but pointed, to the target.
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Old July 20, 2018, 04:35 AM   #107
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There is self defense and other self defense. I can concur that most folks think of self defense in terms of facing a large target right in front of them, but there are other facets as well. I very frequently hunt in dense woods and walk trails and pathways made by vehicles in the sand....in the dark. I have a couple pistols set up for this purpose with good night sights and lights under them. Things like snakes, feral hogs and other critters in the night are not a point and shoot situation necessarily.
I think if a person were to be faced with an assailant in the dark, maybe partially hidden behind something, I would like to be able to use my sights as they could make all the difference.
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Old July 20, 2018, 08:44 AM   #108
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A well rounded shooter has both tools available and uses the appropriate tool at the appropriate time/place.
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Old July 20, 2018, 03:43 PM   #109
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Home Defense, AR 15, creeping downstairs in the dark using white light.

Right now I have a 2.5x prism optic which is good at point blank BUT I spent two years on irons and feel confident with them and in fact feel they would be faster in the above setting.

Am I wrong?
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Old July 20, 2018, 04:00 PM   #110
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A well rounded shooter has both tools available and uses the appropriate tool at the appropriate time/place.
I wish we had a "like" button on TFL. The people arguing this from the either/or position kind of baffle me, to be honest. No reasonable person is going to argue for using sights at contact distance, and the place where a reasonable person transitions from point shooting to sights varies with the person, the assailant, the light, and a blue gazillion other things. I also appreciate the comments of those who pointed out that the transition can be somewhat gradual, something that I knew intuitively but had never thought about hard enough to put into words before.
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Old July 20, 2018, 05:25 PM   #111
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To spray and pray is to die

I've never heard a real experienced gunfighter say sights don't matter.


A lot of people like Jeff Cooper taught that you should use your front sight and press. Be quick, but hit what you are shooting at.


If all you do is bang away in the general direction of an attacker it's only a matter of time before you are going to be hit.


I would agree trigger control is paramount but point shooting past near contact distances should involve some rudimentary aiming.


Also, if you maintain situational awareness, hopefully you won't let anyone get the drop on you. If they do, the chances of making it out alive drops tremendously sights or no sights. If someone you don't know approaches and gives you cause to worry, you should move to cover, place your hand on your gun and watch the other person's hands. Try to gain the advantage before the shooting starts. Why do you think cops put their hand on their gun at a traffic stop sometimes. Just waiting for someone to put you in a bad position is not a good idea.


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Old July 20, 2018, 07:42 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by rc View Post
If someone you don't know approaches and gives you cause to worry, you should move to cover, place your hand on your gun and watch the other person's hands. Try to gain the advantage before the shooting starts. Why do you think cops put their hand on their gun at a traffic stop sometimes. Just waiting for someone to put you in a bad position is not a good idea.


rc
So how do you go to the store exactly, or walk on a sidewalk? Do you just walk around with your hand on your firearm like it's high noon at the OK Corral? I get the point of whole person, hands, demeanor, but the reality is most of us are in places where others are close to us at some point. Obviously the goal is to not let people get close in the first place and that's why maintaining situational awareness is important, but the reality is we're not police and walking around like you're the Waco kid basically broadcasts that you're carrying, which in itself can make you a target. I've run into the same people at the range saying that if I let someone get within 10 yds I've already failed. To me that person is either unrealistic or is willing to not interact with people.


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Old July 21, 2018, 01:29 AM   #113
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It is very unlikely you are going to get attacked in a crowded place unless someone is intent on hurting the group in which case I hope not to be one of the people hit first. I would still seek cover and assess the situation before responding.

More likely is someone is going to follow you out to your car or see you exit a building and move to try and engage you. If you are situationally aware, hopefully you'd have time to take a defensive posture. rc
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Old July 21, 2018, 09:00 AM   #114
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Just because someone is in a parking lot with me doesn't mean that person is going to assault me, unless my car is somehow the only car in the parking lot (and then that person could just be passing through). For all you know the person is walking to his car that happens to be next to yours. I'll wager the money in my pockets that the scenario I described is just as if not more likely than someone being near you assaulting you.

Again I'm not saying situational awareness is not important. What I'm saying is assuming you'll be able to get into cover with a definite heads up that an attack is imminent is a hell of an assumption. Also reaching for your gun any time someone does get close isn't the solution. Drawing on a person many yards away simply because you think they might be a threat is likely to see you charged. Typical engagement distances are very close when it comes to self defense. These are all reasons that having the ability to shoot reflexively is a useful skill to develop.

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Old July 22, 2018, 08:58 AM   #115
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So after seeing lots of replies (and digging into a lot of videos and articles) my best impression would be basically this:

- There is no "either-or" between techniques, rather "both-and"
- Reflexive, point or even hip-shooting are essential skills because in many situations, the defender is caught by surprise and doesn't have enough time to gain a full sight picture
- If such shooting is necessary, it should be combined with retreat to cover, where aimed fire can take over if escape isn't possible

Basically, aimed fire is always superior to unaimed fire, when the circumstance allows for it. But lacking that, landing shots quickly is the most critical thing.
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Old July 25, 2018, 11:30 PM   #116
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Another way to think of it: Always use your sights and shoot from cover, unless you don't have time to...
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Old August 7, 2018, 07:32 AM   #117
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I haven't read the 5 pages of responses yet, and I probably won't. However, I will add my opinion.....
Defensive shooting is primarily reactive in nature. Therefore, muscle memory and training take over. I am of the opinion that most people involved in a defensive encounter involving a pistol do not take the time to obtain a proper sight picture and sight alignment. Instead, they pull and pray.
When that happens, we fall back on our training. Have you put in the range time and trained to draw from the holster? Have you shot from the "tuck" position while your body is in different positions? Have you held up your free hand to simulate blocking a punch or otherwise protecting your face while you shoot upon clearing the holster?
How are you with 1-handed shooting? On target and in a vital area?
In a stressful encounter, I believe you fall back on muscle memory, since fine motor skills are out the window. In a CCW-type encounter, we are talking very close range. Point and shoot skills must be spot on, and there isn't time to turn on your pretty little red dot and make sure it's centered over the left ventricle of the heart, etc. Those things are really cool to show your buddies but are completely useless in a CCW/DEFENSIVE encounter.
Obviously, if you have time to line up the perfect sight alignment and sight picture, take time to do that. But DO NOT "visualize" encounters where you will have the time to do it.
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Old August 7, 2018, 08:45 PM   #118
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NvrGiveUp you are completely willing to give advice based on your view of how a self defense encounter will go while advising everyone else not to try to visualize one, and you reject the notion of reading everyone else's responses to this thread. My conclusion is you aren't really interested in an intelligent discussion of different points of view, but simply want to tell us how smart you are.

I don't disagree with a lot of your points, but training starts with site picture and trigger control. The ability to put multiple rounds quickly on multiple targets is the next step, followed by a long list of other combat tactics, some of which you mentioned. I certainly agree that one must be versatile, but dismissing site picture or optics made for self defense pistols as having no value is as silly as it is wrong.
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Old August 7, 2018, 08:56 PM   #119
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You got a lot from his post that I didn't. He simply said he hadn't had time to read all the responses yet. He also said not to visualize an encounter where you have the luxury of time to acquire a perfect sight picture. I don't see that as him saying he's smarter than everyone.

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Old August 8, 2018, 07:03 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by K_Mac View Post
NvrGiveUp you are completely willing to give advice based on your view of how a self defense encounter will go while advising everyone else not to try to visualize one, and you reject the notion of reading everyone else's responses to this thread. My conclusion is you aren't really interested in an intelligent discussion of different points of view, but simply want to tell us how smart you are.

I don't disagree with a lot of your points, but training starts with site picture and trigger control. The ability to put multiple rounds quickly on multiple targets is the next step, followed by a long list of other combat tactics, some of which you mentioned. I certainly agree that one must be versatile, but dismissing site picture or optics made for self defense pistols as having no value is as silly as it is wrong.
Mr. K_Mac, I apologize if I sounded like a know-it-all, because that is most definitely not the case. One thing I will say is that I didn't mean that folks should not visualize a lethal encounter. I merely meant to avoid limiting that visualization by focusing on those allowing for perfect use of the sights on a weapon. I still stand behind what I said about the overwhelming majority of defensive gun battles being done at close range and the fact that they are completely reactive in nature. What's more, although those involved see time seemingly slow down as tunnel vision takes over, CCW-type encounters are over VERY quickly. A study done with 101 law enforcement officers gave us some good info to base our training and visualization upon. Try this on for size, sir....
It takes an average of 1.19 seconds to draw from a holstered position for someone WHO TRAINS.
It takes .59 seconds to raise and fire a weapon, so now we are at 1.78 seconds
If someone is running toward you, it takes them an average of 1.28 seconds to cover 15 feet.
I keep seeing reports that the average civilian defensive shooting is well within the 15' mark and the number of rounds fired is averaged at 3 from the good guy. Length of time from 1st to last shot? A whopping 4 seconds, on average. I am of the opinion that ON AVERAGE, folks don't have the liberty of lining up the sights as though they are shooting at coke cans on a hillside. They will revert to their training and the mental preparation in response to an attack.
Everyone is certainly free to train however the choose. What's most important is that everyone trains. Sure, go to the range and see how many rounds you can put in the vitals while slow firing and perfectly aligning your sights. That helps develop many skills. It does not, however, prepare you for a self-defense encounter where you are fighting for your life. These are only my opinions that are based on my own observations and statistical analyses I have read and seen and been trained on. I'm certainly no expert on the subject.
Stay safe, y'all.

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Old August 8, 2018, 07:36 AM   #121
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These are only my opinions that are based on my own observations and statistical analyses I have read and seen and been trained on.
I hate statistics. I worked career in LE, the last 23 at the federal level. For 6 I ran an Intelligence Unit. You can make stats support whatever agenda you want.

There is no such thing as an average gunfight. That means that to get a 3 shot average 50 shootings could take 15 hits and 10 shootings take 1 hit. To get an honest assessment of shots fired in gun shots you need to look at each shooting.

Where I believe you can use stats in shooting is for example; in 10,000 shootings that the 357 magnum was used 9,950 required only one hit before the BG ceased hostility.
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Old August 8, 2018, 10:20 AM   #122
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I think statistical analysis is a fine thing. I also know that the analysis is only as good as the data collected, and the skills and objectives of those doing it. Nanuk's example below supports this. His example indicates a 99.5% one shot stop rate when using a 357 magnum. There is absolutely no chance that is a valid stat, it simply makes his point, yet I can now say that based on my recent research, with a 99.5% one stop success rate over 10,000 shootings, the 357 magnum is by far the best for self defense if that suits my agenda. Once that is quoted a few times it becomes part of the internet data base.

NvrGiveUp while numbers can be used to further an agenda, I understand clearly that things happen very quickly in a self defense encounter. I'm not advocating slow, deliberate bullseye practice as substitute for legitimate self defense training. Point shooting, shooting while moving or grappling, shooting with either hand with and without cover, threat assessment and many other skills are desirable when carrying a gun for self defense. Sight picture and trigger control are as fundamental as the 4 rules for safe and effective use of a firearm in my opinion.
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Old August 8, 2018, 10:33 AM   #123
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This is a really stupid debate, IMHO.

Not sure were this idiocy of "not using sights" in a gunfight comes from but it is complete fallacy.

My background is multiple tours in Afghanistan with enough two way shooting ranges to have an informed opinion.

IMHO...someone is confusing an emergency technique that is the result of having a well trained and proper stance with normallacy.

The winner of a gunfight is the first well placed lethal shot. It is not the first one to get off a shot as many a gunfight loser has taken to their grave.

Use your sights. If your stance is correct and you have trained then in an emergency with close quarters immediate threat where nothing but a hail mary and some good luck will save you, then take the shot.

You should train your muscle memory so that the pistol is rotated towards the direction of fire the moment it clears your holster. In a target ~3 meters away you should be able to put rounds in the bowling pin the moment that muzzle is pointed downrange and clear of the holster.

You should also be able to push your pistol out to position 4 and engage hitting a target at 3 meters in the bowling pin.

Those are all emergency procedures. Tools in the toolbox that does not replace proper sight usage. In fact, those tools are designed to give you the space/time/distance to get on your sights as the range increases.

The fastest and most accurate shooters use their sights.

Last edited by davidsog; August 8, 2018 at 10:40 AM.
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Old August 8, 2018, 10:37 AM   #124
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Sight picture and trigger control are as fundamental as the 4 rules for safe and effective use of a firearm in my opinion.
Exactly. Do not confuse "E" in your PACE plan with the "P".

Primary, Alternate, Contingency, EMERGENCY
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Old August 8, 2018, 10:39 AM   #125
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I think that over the last 5 pages the point is that it is not an “either/or” proposition

Learn to use the sights and WHEN to do so

Learn to shoot without the sights and WHEN to do that

Learn from real life encounters. The a availability of videos showing actual gunfights gives us the best idea of human performance under stress. We also can readily see the effects of proper training when under attack.

Some folks do extremely well, some fall apart.
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