Single Action Revolver Safety

[MJN77]

Not when the information can get somebody hurt or killed! I have been carrying
and shooting SAA for over 50 years. I have seen accidents . I know what can
and has happend. I would never, never put 6 in a SAA. Not even if I was going
to shoot it right away. C&B revolvers same way. I have in 50 years ever loaded
more than 5 and never will. Seems like every new generation has to re-learn
this. Some the easy way, some the hard way. You fall into the false sense of
security thinking, well it hasn't happened to me yet, so it can't happen . Ask all
the ones that have been shot . But you do what you think best.

And it seems like everyone with a few gray hairs thinks their way is the only right way. Age (and growing up watching Bonanza) doesn't necessarily bring wisdom or make you right. It amazes me how many people are afraid of SA revolvers. Why do you shoot them at all? Why not get the latest and safest new plastic "wondergun" with four different safeties, so you can sleep at night? I have read about folks accidentally shooting themselves with modern "safe" guns too, sport. Common sense plays a big part in things of this nature. Of all the "accidental" shootings I have read about that involved SA revolvers, more often than not had the "victim" doing something careless or just plain stupid. Do you really think that every one way back when, or since then, that hung their well being in their guns only carried five rounds in a six shot revolver? I'm not talking about cowboys (just over worked laborers) I mean lawmen, soldiers, frontiersmen that might have to deal with anything from wild animals to hostile indians etc. In his 1882 book about the life and death of Billy the Kid, Pat Garrett mentioned that he examined the Kid's revolver after he was shot by Garrett. Garrett said his gun contained five cartridges and one spent shell. That the shell didn't seem recently fired and that "some" carried their guns in this manner for safety. The word "some" is important. He didn't say "every one", or "most" or "we". " He said "some". Another example, When John Ringo's body was found in July of 1882, from what the coroner determined was a self inflicted gunshot to the head, the coroner listed Ringo's belongings. Among them was his revolver (used to commit suicide) listed as "one Colt's revolver, calibre 45, NO. 222, containing five cartridges" Years later Robert Boller, a member of the coroner's jury that examined Ringo's body and belongings, said "there was an empty shell in the six-shooter and the hammer was on that". Five cartridges and one empty shell (fired into his head)= 6 beans in the wheel. In the military, pistol ammo was issued in packs of six. Paper cartridges for percussion revolvers were sold in packs of six. I have read extensively about the guns and the era, a lot of first hand accounts about these things and while there were some, have found little mention of "accidental" shootings. And of the ones mentioned, a surprising number involved "gun twirling" by a young show off. You find numerous examples of six rounds being carried in revolvers. Heck, read about old gun fights. I occasionally carry six in my guns when I have to hike into the woods looking for a missing cow, to fix a broken fence or for whatever reason and don't want to or can't carry a long gun. There have been packs of wild dogs around that have made off with a few calves. The area is also home to coyotes, copperheads and a few nefarious "redneck" types (I don't mean country folk, I mean the kind you find running a meth lab). Like I mentioned before, I don't just shoot at paper or steel and play "cowboy". My guns are 'working" guns. For protection, pest control, putting down an injured cow, etc. I do not see the point in handicapping myself with one less round. In a five shot revolver, would you carry four? These guns were designed to safely carry six rounds. The most common way was to put the firing pin between the case rims. Just like the percussion revolvers with the safety pins, or notches on the Remingtons, between the nipples. If the idea of carrying a fully loaded SA scares you, then I would advise against it. I don't care what you do with your guns, but as far as this nonsense.."Not when the information can get somebody hurt or killed!"...Information doesn't hurt or kill people. Careless actions do. That's kinda like blaming a gun for a crime. But you do what you think best.

[rclark]

But you do what you think best.

Yep ... I know I will. I will load 5 .

[Doc Hoy]

.... because some of my techniques may be a little fool hearty.

When I shoot a revolver I load all six, but you have to understand the way I shoot. My revolver is never loaded for more than about three minutes.

I don't do CAS. I don't ever carry the revolver loaded. I don't use a holster. I load six at the bench and shoot those six at the bench.

I do not recommend this practice for anyone else. Your safety techniques are your business and I am the last guy in the world to advise you to compromise.

But there is a philosophy that has grown up around safety and safe practices that goes back probably to 1970 and likely even before that. It involves two concepts both of which I think need closer scrutiny:

1. We should always go for maximum safety without regard to the impact of our safety precautions.

Operationalized, a shooter could challenge my technique of loading all six as more dangerous than loading five and resting the hammer on an empty chamber. Obviously that challenge is very valid. But the way I shoot, loading five does not provide me with enough additional safety to make me change my practice. That is only my opinion and I am prepared for others to tell me I am wrong. In most cases it is dangerous to load all six and that means it is dangerous enough that it should be avoided. I am willing to accept the additional risk because in my case the additional risk is very slight and I am taking additional precautions because I know I am handling a fully loaded revolver.

2. People tend to focus on the safety precautions of the activity in which they are involved and lose perspective with regard to general, overall, global safe practices.

Operationalized, I was told I was being fool hearty in loading a previously fired cap and ball revolver directly from a flask. The strength of the argument was that it is a dangerous practice. I acknowledge that it is more dangerous than loading with a scoop or individual shot measure. But I shoot and load in a way that makes those risks largely (but not completely) disappear. I manage my activity to counteract the remaining risk. I do acknowledge that it is slightly more dangerous and I just tolerate the additional risk. BUT (and here is the operational part of the concept) I almost always drive ten miles per hour over the speed limit. I don't mow my lawn any more but when I did, I would put gas into a hot lawn mower. I drink alcohol and my eating habits are terrible. So I am fool hearty in all things. I think that some members of the group who were challenging me also exceeded the speed limit, have bad eating habits, maybe they use tobacco and most dangerous of all, they bought revolvers without telling the wife. People in that category can't convince me they care about safety enough to tell me I should change my ways.

[salvadore]

I didn't know the older SAAs had a sharper firing pin and the old timers carried 6 with the pin between cartridges. That's what I like about this site, you learn something new all the time. I carry my shooter in an open top Mernickle holster. I was able to pull the hammer back while holstered, (not easy). Anecdotely, I once walked up on a griz while fishing all alone in the back country, having an extra cartridge would not have been without merit. Fortunately griz went one way and I went the opposite, both of us in a very timely manner.

[salvadore]

[QUOTE][/ most dangerous of all, they bought revolvers without telling the wifeQUOTE]

Doc, if I told my wife every time I bought a revolver I wouldn't have any revolvers.

[salvadore]

Speaking of gray hair and Bonanza, I once was invited to the home of a retired gent to see his extensive firearms collection. This was like 1971/72 in western NC. He had walls and walls of shooters and he also owned a SAA, which he brought out to show me. It was loaded with six cartridges and the firing pin rested on a live round. I courteously mentioned that there might be a safety issue if the gun was dropped. He looked at me like I was from Mars.

Doc, when shooting from a bench I load six, I also load six in my C&Bs from a flask. YIKES!!!

[MJN77]

Being safe is great. Being paranoid or afraid of your equipment is something else. I'm almost 40 and I have been shooting and carrying SA revolvers since I was 13. I built my first C&B revolver (CVS 1860) from a kit when I was 12. It's not like I just started playing with them. I have needed and used my revolvers from time to time and I would rather not carry a partially loaded gun. Shooting at paper and steel for 50 years doesn't make you an expert in safety issues.

[salvadore]

Well 45 years maybe. I use to work for a government contractor before retirement. Their motto was 'SAFETY FIRST'. My experience suggested that if you put safety as your prime objective, nothing ever gets done. I suggested they change it to 'WE KILL FOR ICE CREAM', the motto of a combat unit in Vietnam who if they had a body count the CO would chopper out ice cream...I retired shortly after.

[Doc Hoy]

Tsk Tsk.

What will other people say about us!?

;o)

[g.willikers]

Has anyone made a six gun holster with a split safety strap, one half for under the hammer and one over the hammer?
Seems like that would solve the problem of carrying a full load without worry.
Might not be the hot setup for a fast draw situation, but better than needing the sixth round and not having it.

[Rigmarol]

Doc your post is spot on in my opinion.

You load and accept responsibility for your actions. If it be risky so be it.

Life is all about risk. I find online "safety police" to be annoying personally. Probably because you hear it repeated and argued about over and over everywhere you go.

Granted a new shooter needs instruction but it can be taken way overboard in my personal opinion.

People disagree all the time, and that's ok with me too.

The ONLY safety item I get aggressive over is when shooters sweep other shooters at the range including handling guns while men are downrange. I bark like a junk yard dog when it happens.

Don't point your gun at me and you can load any dam way you want. LOL.

[Doc Hoy]

But I almost never shoot with anyone else around.

The guy who owns the property that I shoot on came down one day and I let him try out my tools. That happened maybe twice. Other than that I shoot alone. Partially because I think that two people on a range is more than twice as dangerous as one. But more correctly I shoot alone for the privacy.

[salvadore]

Doc, I'm also a solitary shooter given the choice, if I wanted a friend I'd buy a dog..wait a minute, I have a dog and a spare.

[Chestnut Forge]

Given my choice, I'd rather shoot alone. Except when experimenting, then I like to have someone I trust with me. I do any proofing alone, however.

[kwhi43]

Funny, I guess I am the odd duck. I love the company of fellow shooters. We
compare notes, guns, ect. I always look forward to them. At Friendship Ind I
have met quite a few friends the past 25 years. We E-Mail each other talk on the
phone and look forward to seeing each other the following year. We all get
together for a big feed . When we shoot, it's about 50 and more of us shooting
at the same time. This goes on for the whole 7 days. I know this would drive
you nuts, but it's what we like. At our local club we Have 30-50 people all
shooting at the same time. This goes on every month. We all like each other's
company and enjoy the jokes, kidding,and shooting. The places I go and shoot
everybody enjoys the fellowship . During the week, I have been called by
another club member and they say , want to go down and do a little shooting
today?. Nobody would really think about going by themselves. In the 45 years
I have been a member I don't ever remember going to the club and only
seeing one person by themselves . I guess we just do things a little different
here in Missouri. Not to say your way is wrong, it's not, but I just can't imagine
it. Just thought I would throw in a different perspective .

[44 Dave]

Mostly shoot alone. Don't like crowds, waiting in line or other peoples noise.
I try to shoot every week, 12 to 18 rounds or so. In the winter this means, load in doors walk "out back" and fire.
I do shoot SASS and that is a good group, but up here only 6 times/year.

[SIGSHR]

Growing up in the 50s-1950s, not 1850s, I heard the "hammer down on an empty chamber", later I noted many people though to do the same with more modern design, Colt, S&Ws, etc.
The Remington cap and ball revolvers have safety notches between the cylinders to engage the hammer, the Colts have pins. More recently the Virginian Dragoon had one chamber marked with dimples on either side to use as a "safety" chamber.
I saw the Late Great Joe Bowman in action some years ago, he loaded his Old Model Rugers with 6 rounds. But his shooting skills greatly exceeded mine

[Doc Hoy]

I don't find it surprising that you like shooting with people. You and your wife and perhaps now even your daughter have a true competitive spirit and innate natural talent.

I have seen the results of your talents in your posts and photos. Undeniably top drawer. I can almost imagine the conversations that are going on in your family. I can also imagine the admiring comments from other shooters. Lotta learning going on.


Nope. No surprise that you like to shoot around other folks.

[Driftwood Johnson]

I saw the Late Great Joe Bowman in action some years ago, he loaded his Old Model Rugers with 6 rounds. But his shooting skills greatly exceeded mine

He was also shooting blanks.

[James K]

Many of the old timers did indeed carry six rounds with the hammer down between rounds. But the old SAA's had a much more pointed firing pin than the more modern ones and, while the hammer never went fully down it went far enough to be safe in anything like normal carry and use.

They also carried those guns with the sear (trigger) in the "safety" notch (yes, Colt called it that and instructions said to use it that way), and did so with no concern, let alone the hysteria that such an action would cause today. What has changed is that we are now, thanks in part to massive litigation where everyone sues everyone else, much more safety conscious than they were in those days. All told, that is probably to the good.*

Would I carry "six up" in a SAA today? Probably not. If I were expecting to be in a gunfight, I would carry six, but in my Model 19, or a high cap magazine in an M9 or a Glock.

* Sometimes our concern for safety reaches silliness. I once mentioned on one of these sites that belt links from aircraft wing guns dropped down a chute and fell to the ground. Incredibly, someone asked if that wasn't dangerous for people on the ground. I pointed out that the bombs dropping on them were just possibly more dangerous than falling links.

Jim

[MJN77]

Sometimes our concern for safety reaches silliness.

Amen.

[maillemaker]

When I shoot a revolver I load all six, but you have to understand the way I shoot. My revolver is never loaded for more than about three minutes.

I don't do CAS. I don't ever carry the revolver loaded. I don't use a holster. I load six at the bench and shoot those six at the bench.

This is me exactly. My gun goes from being loaded to being unloaded in about 3 minutes. I load all 6 at the bench immediately in preparation for firing and fire all 6.

Also, I shoot N-SSA competition. I made the mistake once of only carrying 5 cartridges (for musket) to the line. You are only allowed 5 shots at the target, after all. I fat-fingered the round and missed the barrel with the powder charge. So I was unable to shoot 5 shots at that target. I may have been able to ground the gun and go get some more ammo but the lesson was clear to me - always carry more ammo than you need.

Even with pistol shooting, you are only allowed 5 shots on target. So I load up all 6 in case I have a misfire (or even miss the target!). If I put 5 on the paper I just put number 6 into the backstop.

I suppose if I actually was toting one around I might only load 5. But frankly if I was actually toting a gun around it would not be a black powder revolver. It would be something like a Springfield XDM in 9mm holding 19 or in 45 holding 12 rounds of ammo.

Steve

[SIGSHR]

I don't think we can ever be too safe.

[maillemaker]

I don't think we can ever be too safe.

If you really believed this, you'd never ride in a car, or shoot a gun. Everything in life is about weighing risks and benefits.

Steve

[rclark]

I load all 6 at the bench immediately in preparation for firing and fire all 6.

I do too. As soon as I cap the last one, lift the gun, go to full cock, and start firing. That's completely different than being in the field however where the unexpected is very much more likely to happen. As said above, let you conscious be your guide as each of us have our own way of thinking.... just don't lawyer up when it does happen and sue the manufacturer (you know the MC'D hot coffee lawsuit syndrome).