Handcuffs or Zip Ties?

[skydiver3346]

I don't get all these replys to the guy who asked if he should hold a suspect (that is actually in his home when apprehended by home owner?)?
Seems like a lot of people said, "whats wrong with just letting him get up and leave if he wants to?"
I'll tell you why, CAUSE HE MIGHT COME BACK IF HE THINKS YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING".........Or, what about this senario, "you let him go and he does something very bad", (like injures or kills another home owner when he is caught in the act). The BG needs to go to jail, period. At least he knows not to come back to your particular home in the future. He knows you are armed and will have him arrested (or worse)!
Just letting them leave with no punishment or having to answer for their unlawful entry (and putting you and your family at risk) is not acceptable, period! I know what I will do and think about it often. I hope to be ready when and if that ever happens to my family.

[Playboypenguin]

CAUSE HE MIGHT COME BACK IF HE THINKS YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING"

Yeah, he is going to say to himself..."I broke into that house and was met with a pistol in my face and had to run for my life. I think I will stop in there every chance I get instead of moving on to an easier target."

...and letting him flee is not the same as letting him get away. I love the idea of telling him to throw his wallet on the ground. If he is dunb enough to do it you will have his ID. You can always claim he dropped it accidently...you cannot claim he feel into handcuffs.

Plus, as many others have said, if you have me at gunpoint and then try to cuff me I am going to fight back and so is a criminal. You just turned a "I almost lost my belongings" situation into a "I might lose my life" one really quickly.

[38SnubFan]

Once you put someone in handcuffs, their safety becomes YOUR responsibility. This does not apply to LE, but to civilians. Means you cannot harm them, and you must prevent them from being harmed while they are cuffed.

WRONG!!!!! Even when I'm on duty, the moment I handcuff a defendant (BG), he is MY RESPONSIBILITY, and I face the same criminal/civil liabilities as any other LEO OR CIVILIAN would, should something bad happen to him/her while in my custody.

But none of the possible legal ramifications are my reasoning behind NOT cuffing him, even though I do own handcuffs and are properly trained in their use. My reason is that I'm not going to subject myself to further risk and/or subject my family to further risk my placing myself in a situation where safety is compromised by getting too close to the subject.

Even with my better half being ex-military, and having the mindset and skills to cover me, her possible nervousness and "adrenaline rush" while holding a gun in her hands to cover me while I'm restraining the subject (not to mention she would now have ME and SUBJECT within the line of fire) is again....not a risk I'm willing to chance for either her, myself, or the kids.

Again, this is just my opinion on the matter. Whether you actually do cuff a subject is probably going to be more dependent on the situation. It's very easy to sit back and play Monday-Morning-Quarterback here and judge on a situation most of us have never been in and probably never will be.

All that said: As far as whether to use flex-cuffs or standard steel cuffs - I'd prefer standard chain-style cuffs. A prepped flex-cuff consists of two loops which need to be slipped over the BG's wrists, where as a standard handcuff can be applied directly against the wrist while I have a grip on his fingers and hands and lessen his chances of swinging an arm/fist at me.

Shoot well, stay safe, and stay healthy,
38SnubFan

[Creature]

I'll tell you why, CAUSE HE MIGHT COME BACK IF HE THINKS YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING"

After I point a loaded gun at you because I caught you breaking into my home, do you really think that you would come back?...because you're mad at me?

Besides...if you came back, what makes you think I wont be madder than you, and much more motivated to shot you in order to defend my family?

[Playboypenguin]

WRONG!!!!! Even when I'm on duty, the moment I handcuff a defendant (BG), he is MY RESPONSIBILITY, and I face the same criminal/civil liabilities as any other LEO OR CIVILIAN would, should something bad happen to him/her while in my custody.

C'mon now, you and I both know LEO's benefit from protections against liability stemming from the standard application of their duties that civilians do not.

[nemoaz]

You gave baseless and untrue advice and now evade the topic. Back it up without being snide as an attempt to cover it up.

Wow! Proving you have no idea what a citizen's arrest is seems to have really struck a cord. I guess it makes the rest of your legal assertions suspect to your fellow internet commando experts.

You clearly have neither law nor law enforcement training... yet you seem somehow uninhibitated from dispensing your own advice which has no basis in either legal theories or law enforcement tactical techniques.

C'mon now, you and I both know LEO's benefit from protections against liability stemming from the standard application of their duties that civilians do not.

Since you are a total azshat, I won't respond to this additional stupid assertion.

My reason is that I'm not going to subject myself to further risk and/or subject my family to further risk my placing myself in a situation where safety is compromised by getting too close to the subject.

Obviously, someone who KNOWS what he's talking about.

The BG needs to go to jail, period. At least he knows not to come back to your particular home in the future. He knows you are armed and will have him arrested (or worse)!
Just letting them leave with no punishment or having to answer for their unlawful entry (and putting you and your family at risk) is not acceptable, period! I know what I will do and think about it often. I hope to be ready when and if that ever happens to my family.

LEO's are taught that transitioning from gunpoint to applying handcuffs is one of the most dangerous aspects of the job. You usually wait for a cover agent to keep a weapon trained at the suspect, then try to apply the cuffs to a proned suspect as quickly as possible and while minimizing your own exposure. The handcuffing agent has his weapon holstered. The handcuffing agent uses a few techniques to limit the ability of the suspect to counterattack. It's just not something that can be done properly without a decent amount of training... and even with training, it is simply a tactic that cannot be employed without significant risk.

[hogdogs]

Like a kid under the tree christmas morn... I read the first and second in this thread only... i will read the rest after this reply...
Here in Fla Cuffs are okay (plastic or metal) so long as said BG gets charged with a "VIOLENT FELONY" if said BG gets a misdemeanor or less than "VIOLENT" felony you have commited a felony yerself! It is called many different things depending on the DA... Here you are better off to "STOP THE THREAT" and call 911 to report a big mess on your floor! Also I will say I will never be within 6 feet of a badguy unless I am doing my best "UNLOAD THE MOSSBERG" impression!
I have taught/trained my family to help with giving orders... I will initiate with "BIT@& GET ON YER KNEES CLASP HANDS BEHIND YER HEAD CROSS YER FEET AND FACE PLANT ON THE FLOOR!!!! DO NOT UNCLASP YER HANDS..." My wife will say MF'er HE AIN'T PLAYING" My kids will say along the lines of "DADDY? YOU GONNA KILL THAT POS?" One of previous stated MOF (member of family) will initiate the 911 call... One move I am not totally entertained by will result in "peace thru superior fire power" If alone I will not use the phone... I will let the neighbors report the BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM to the operator for me! NEVER approach a violent felon and never I MEAN EVER take the POA of them to use the phone! Cuffs are for the cops... I know alot of you say "chest thumpin' redneck gorilla hogdogs is..." but some addresses really are better left alone...
Brent

[mamboreta]

I will stick to the "stun-gun//pepper-spray" option if he gets slightly agressive, with mi P226 in my other hand.

But honestly, if he wants to run away, I´m probably gonna let him get the hell away from me and my loved ones. I´m sure a -"Next time I will shoot you in the act!"- final statement will make him (and his friends) think twice about not only me, but also about my neigbourhood and the armed people who may live there.

For the rest, there are LEO´s.

[hogdogs]

Lemme find out e was released by a nearby homeowner... YOU WILL PAY FOR THE STANLEY STEEMER CREW! I assure you that my deeds will prevent yer 17 dollar per yard Berber carpet won't be soiled by the punk that entered my home!
"Oh just let the poor feller go... as long as my home is safe... fer now... I am safe..." F that with a capital "F" once free from one home they are more trained to do a better HOME INVASION next time! Clean the Gene Pool at every oppurtunity... if you won't than don't pull a weapon! Brandishing is a lower class crime than a school yard bully! If you do not fire when you pull than you are a simple chump! No excuse to pull unless you fire NONE EVER! Fear factor is for worm eating college kids! If you feel the need to draw, you are OBLIGATED to follow thru or melt yer real gun and buy "airsoft" crap! Guns are to be fired Physical strength is for those to scared to hold their grounds with lethal force and idle threats are for chicken chit sissy punks!
Would you blink? I won't!
Brent

[Glenn E. Meyer]

OK - that was fun!

If you shoot a fleeing felon in the back - then you are a real man. Not a poultry manure minority gender orientation person. Yep, I'm convinced.

The clock and the lock are ticking as we speak.

[Yellowfin]

I don't want to get anywhere near the sleazebag either. Not sure exactly what I would do but I can say that I certainly would prefer not to do that. That said, I wonder why nobody has mentioned duct tape yet.

[hogdogs]

I have half a dozen pair of cuffs here... we tried them on pigs and hogs... they can and do "strip" out in battle... Hogs are some tuff bum-bishes! I have duct-taped more hogs than cuffed and not a one got loose! Duct tape requires being too close of a proximity to a low life single cell life form than I plan to be! Once again in florida as well as many states yer butt is grass if he only gets charged with a misdemeanor or "less than violent" felony! Once inside MY home he can be shot but not necessarily bound! We got to live by the hand we are dealt and the laws we must adhere to! I will not allow any of my family members within 6 feet of his furthest extremity... Sorry fer the invader but facts is facts and we will not engage him in martial arts or any form of hand to hand! I done said it they get one chance to belly up and count crumbs on the carpet! That is all! If they survive until the cops arrive it is through full compliance on their part and I will not impede upon their opportunity to obey! But OBEY, THEY MUST to every letter of MY demands as it is my home they were detained in!
Brent

[Playboypenguin]

You clearly have neither law nor law enforcement training... yet you seem somehow uninhibitated from dispensing your own advice which has no basis in either legal theories or law enforcement tactical techniques.

Hmmmm...all that and still no answer to my original question.

[hogdogs]

Well, I read some... I am neither judge nor jury... I am the guy that signs the walking papers so they can face the JUDGE! I am being a REALLY nice guy giving the BG a chance to count crumbs since I have no legal ramifications as to frontal COM shot or Back of COM! Once in my home i have every right to feel threatened... Florida law says if brazen enough to enter an occupied dwelling they are likely to to be a threat to life limb and liberty... or some such definition!
KMA he has one chance and one only to grab floor... any argument, discussion or begging is too dern late on his part... I am pretty much too nice to offer that much! But I am a softy! Man I wish I was cold and ruthless as Rooster Cogburn! Here on the net i got time to say... "I said do as yer told and you live" in the real life scheme of things i limit conversation to "ON YER KNEES HANDS CLASPED (dunno what that is) Mix up yer fingers and belly flop... Cross yer ankles and raise yer feet... That is all i don't care if it takes 33 days and 40 nights for LEO if you move I get to take a break! Am I a cold hearted SOB NOPE! I just am doing my best to detain a VIOLENT FELONY SUSPECT without making a mess on the carpet.... He made the choice to be a bum ass crook and I made the choice to make my home OFF LIMITS!
Hang me if you must!
Brent

[parrothead2581]

Well, in North Carolina, you can detain but not arrest, unless requested or required by a law enforcement officer. See here: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...S_15A-404.html

And for the fun of it, in California (See section 637):
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...ile=833-851.90

I believe every state except NC permits citizen's arrest. You can of course be sued or worse, if it is false, so you better have the probable cause to make the arrest. You don't have the same legal protections as the police and there are plenty of liabilities so be prepared. Know the difference between detain and arrest.

If you really care about the next victim go join the police force. It is not like it is hard to get in.

I agree with the first half, but the second half strikes a nerve. I could have done a number of things with my Master's Degree, but chose to try out for one of the local Police Departments. It was far from easy to get into. I was one of 25 to get into my class, with around 450 applicants. I'm sure you meant it well, but it didn't come across that way, to me.

[Playboypenguin]

I agree with the first half, but the second half strikes a nerve. I could have done a number of things with my Master's Degree, but chose to try out for one of the local Police Departments. It was far from easy to get into.

Sorry if I offended but as an ex-LEO I have been appalled at how low the bar has been lowered for entrance to police service. Most deptartments are begging for people with only two year degrees (not even law related) to join.

I might have stuck around and used my master's degree in law enforcement but the pay was just not good enough to go out and put my life on the line.

[Yellowfin]

Somehow I have a hard time establishing in my mind exactly how someone that you'd need to hold a gun on and would ponder putting a bullet through seconds before all the sudden becomes safe enough to let walk. I can understand letting a rattlesnake slither away because I came to its world, but something coming to me just doesn't sit well. And yes, someone attacking me becomes an "it" as far as I'm concerned.

[Jedi-Brian]

Just to clarify the legal aspect of cuffing someone who has broken into your home, at least for California residents, there are five laws that go together to allow a citizen's arrest:

CPC 834. An arrest is taking a person into custody, in a case and in the manner authorized by law. An arrest may be made by a peace officer or by a private person.

CPC 835. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person, or by submission to the custody of an officer. The person arrested may be subjected to such restraint as is reasonable for his arrest and detention.

CPC 837. A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

CPC 841. The person making the arrest must inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him, of the cause of the arrest, and the authority to make it, except when the person making the arrest has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested is actually engaged in the commission of or an attempt to commit an offense, or the person to be arrested is pursued immediately after its commission, or after an escape.
The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being arrested.

CPC 847. (a) A private person who has arrested another for the
commission of a public offense must, without unnecessary delay, take the person arrested before a magistrate, or deliver him or her to a peace officer.
(b) There shall be no civil liability on the part of, and no cause of action shall arise against, any peace officer or federal criminal investigator or law enforcement officer described in subdivision (a) or (d) of Section 830.8, acting within the scope of his or her authority, for false arrest or false imprisonment arising out of any arrest under any of the following circumstances:
(1) The arrest was lawful, or the peace officer, at the time of the arrest, had reasonable cause to believe the arrest was lawful.
(2) The arrest was made pursuant to a charge made, upon reasonable cause, of the commission of a felony by the person to be arrested.
(3) The arrest was made pursuant to the requirements of Section 142, 837, 838, or 839.

Just to ensure that everyone understands that this is, in fact, a Felony we are talking about here:

CPC 459. Every person who enters any house, room, apartment, tenement, shop, warehouse, store, mill, barn, stable, outhouse or other building, tent, vessel, as defined in Section 21 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, floating home, as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 18075.55 of the Health and Safety Code, railroad car, locked or sealed cargo container, whether or not mounted on a vehicle, trailer coach, as defined in Section 635 of the Vehicle Code, any house car, as defined in Section 362 of the Vehicle Code, inhabited camper, as defined in Section 243 of the Vehicle Code, vehicle as defined by the Vehicle Code, when the doors are locked, aircraft as defined by Section 21012 of the Public Utilities Code, or mine or any underground portion thereof, with intent to commit grand or petit larceny or any felony is guilty of burglary. As used in this chapter, "inhabited" means currently being used for dwelling purposes, whether occupied or not. A house, trailer, vessel designed for habitation, or portion of a building is currently being used for dwelling purposes if, at the time of the burglary, it was not occupied solely because a natural or other disaster caused the occupants to leave the premises.

CPC 460. (a) Every burglary of an inhabited dwelling house, vessel, as defined in the Harbors and Navigation Code, which is inhabited and designed for habitation, floating home, as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 18075.55 of the Health and Safety Code, or trailer coach, as defined by the Vehicle Code, or the inhabited portion of any other building, is burglary of the first degree.

CPC 461. Burglary is punishable as follows:
1. Burglary in the first degree: by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six years.
2. Burglary in the second degree: by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison.

BUT, I agree with most of the posters that attempting to cuff someone is an idiotic thing to do. Detain them if you can, but don't put yourself into more risk by approaching them. In the academy we were taught that you don't approach a felony suspect until you have a cover officer. If the professionals won't do it alone... you certainly shouldn't!

[RedneckFur]

The way i feel about it is, If you wanna act like a cop, go be a cop. trying to arrest somone in your home will put you in more legal hot water than its worth.

I agree with the eariler posters that said order the BG to drop his wallet and then let him go.

[Playboypenguin]

Since we actually had a warm sunny day here I just got back from riding with my business partner. We stopped to eat at the end and I asked him about the handcuffing thing since he is (as I have mentioned on here before) a lawyer.

He said in both Oregon and Washington a person performing a "citizens arrest" can cuff someone legally. He said if the person is later not charged with a crime you could be charged with false arrest or felony kidnapping. He said that is not a big concern if they are in your house though. He said the biggest concern would be the criminal suing you for injury. All he would have to do would be to say you injured him either during the process of cuffing him or by improperly applying the restraints. Since you are not an LEO you would not be protected by the same laws they are and would be wide open to civil prosecution.

He also added it would not take a great lawyer to convince a jury that an untrained civilian had no place putting restraints on another individual and making it seem very possible that the injuries could be real.

Sounds like too much risk to me even if it wasn't so dangerous to be trying it in the first place.

[JohnKSa]

I don't know what to say about this thread, but it's kept me busy for awhile.

No, come to think of it, I do know what to say. It's over. Some of you will be receiving emails & PMs.