The Ultimate Round Debate

tacstar · February 16, 2018, 04:26 AM

I watched two videos by well known Youtube channel host discussing the pros & cons of various calibers & which ones they deem superior & why.

I was wondering how they arrive at their conclusions & is there any statistical or other data to support their positions.

Neither is a fan of the .45ACP & it's ones position that the .40S&W has declined in popularity since it's debut in 1990 & many LE agencies have abandoned the platform hence there are several police trade-ins in .40S&W available.

The general consensus is 9mm is the preferred round for several reason including penetration,price,reduced recoil compared to other calibers & the capacity of most full size 9mm semi-automatic pistols. I'm curious as to what your position is.

I've attached links to the videos for your viewing pleasure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NR3roFBYNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzy59wb3JvU

dano1200r · February 16, 2018, 04:47 AM

That is one awful video. Alot of subjective and no objective solid data.
I don't care about the few penny difference in buying a 45 round VS a 9mm round. Kickback isn't an issue for everyone, including me. And to say a 185 gr traveling at 1100 to 1300 fps won't impart more energy into a target than a 115 gr going 1000 fps is just bad math. It was interesting can reading though. And if it matters, I shoot em both, because one between the eyes and it really doesn't matter.

bamaranger · February 16, 2018, 05:46 AM

There may be number of stopping power studies, but I think there are 3 landmark studies.

The granddaddy of stopping power studies is the Thompson-Lagarde work done in 1904. The US Army shot live cattle and some human cadavers. The result was the .45acp selection for the 1911.

Somewhere in the 1970's, I can recall NYPD studies being cited as to number of rounds fired, percentage hits and so forth.......NYPD has a recent study that details the past 10 years or so. The study is more behavior and officer related than it is ballistically leaning.

There may be others, but the next I can speak to is Sanow and Marshall Two gun scribes, Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall, did an analyses of shootings in the 1980' and published a book in the early 90's coming up with percentage likelihood of one shot stops. It was something in its day, but is looked at critically 20+ yrs later.

In more recent years, a Dr. Martin Fackler did quite a bit of wounding research. He was an advocate of ballistic gel testing and worked with the FBI establishing standards.

Quite recently, the FBI says there is no difference in most handgun wounds from service calibers, and for that and certain tactical (more bullets cause you might miss a lot and the increased threat of multiple bad guys) and administrative reasons (read easy to shoot and cheaper) they tout the 9mm is all you need.

UncleEd · February 16, 2018, 06:14 AM

The best round is the one you handle and shoot the best.

I know, that's an answer that doesn't answer the question.

For me, I like revolvers and especially the .38/.357 setup
with emphasis on the .38 in its best plus P configuration.
But I also like the 9 mm, again in its best configurations.

The .40, .45 are very good but they're not what I
gravitate to nor do they get paired with guns I especially
like.

Lohman446 · February 16, 2018, 07:22 AM

Group the major service calibers together and their various "boutique" offshoots. Throw in the .357 and 10MM.

They are more alike then different. Putting your shots on target is much more important then a few hundredths of an inch, 100 grains, or a couple hundred foot pounds of energy when discussing human sized adversaries.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 16, 2018, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacstar

I was wondering how they arrive at their conclusions & is there any statistical or other data to support their positions.

Doesn't the rest of your post answer your question?

Quote:

Neither is a fan of the .45ACP & it's ones position that the .40S&W has declined in popularity since it's debut in 1990 & many LE agencies have abandoned the platform hence there are several police trade-ins in .40S&W available.

The general consensus is 9mm is the preferred round for several reason including penetration,price,reduced recoil compared to other calibers & the capacity of most full size 9mm semi-automatic pistols.

You don't have to agree with their conclusions, of course, but if the question is why they prefer the 9mm, that seems to answer it.

RETG · February 16, 2018, 08:11 AM

From my experience a nine can do the job quite well, as will a .45. However, I preferred to carry more rounds since there were usually more than one target. My primary experience did not come from carrying a gun in the USA, but in countries where the nine was very common.

UncleEd · February 16, 2018, 09:16 AM

RETG touches on probably one of the most
important facts about handgun calibers.

Throughout the world the 9 mm is pretty much
the accepted caliber.

Even 50 years ago, while our military sidearm
was usually the .45, all our allies and enemies
had sidearms in basically the 9 mm configuration.

Charlie98 · February 16, 2018, 09:40 AM

Quote:

The best round is the one you handle and shoot the best.

I know, that's an answer that doesn't answer the question.

Actually, that's only a partial answer... the rest of the answer is '...in a firearm that you can handle and shoot the best given your carry parameters.'

As another poster said, one round on target beats 7 or 15 ones that miss, and that's with a firearm you have on your person, not in the truck console or setting on the nightstand back at home.

sakata8242 · February 16, 2018, 02:17 PM

I used to like Yankee's videos for the satire and humor....lately now I think he's gone a bit off the deep end. He has some strong opinions on various matters but they're just that - opinions.

**OldMarksman** · February 16, 2018, 02:33 PM

I have no idea what his point was because I could not stand to watch it.

peterg7 · February 16, 2018, 02:46 PM

I’m not letting you tube warriors or ammo tests done by shill ammo sellers sway my choice. I just would like to pay a reasonable price for .380acp fmj

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Northof50 · February 16, 2018, 04:17 PM

Aside from Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch channel, I don't watch any YouTube "gun" channels. Most don't do the shooting community any favors.

The fact is, there is no ultimate round. The handgun is a marginal emergency weapon. Much will depend on your marksmanship while under pressure, the target provided by your subject as well as his/her willingness to continue the fight.

Bullet performance is more important than caliber, as the damaged caused by the expanded bullet is far more effective than the kinetic energy delivered by the round - which is why the rifle is so much more effective.

Though only my opinion, I think far too much emphasis is placed on gel-tests as well. Of all the things you can say about the wonderful human body - monolithic is not among them. It is impossible for a block of gel to simulate everything from bone, liquid, air, muscle, fat etc.

There's a great interview with Bob Stasch, a Chicago cop who has been in 14 gun fights. Massad Ayoob did the interview. A great perspective on firearms, back up guns, extra magazines. Well worth a listen.

Terminatorret · February 16, 2018, 04:35 PM

Bravo, peterg7.

I concur 100%.

OzeanJaeger · February 16, 2018, 04:40 PM

There are 105lb female soldiers and FBI agents. Do you think they're going to choose a service weapon that some of them can't effectively use?

It wasn't just small females who did not like the recoil of the .40. The service weapon of choice for a couple of thousand random people is not going to be the same as the one you choose FOR YOU. Basing your decisions off government procurement procedures is not wise.

By the same token just about anyone could shoot a .38 revolver, which is why it was the LEO handgun of choice for almost 100 years.

lee n. field · February 16, 2018, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacstar

The general consensus is 9mm is the preferred round for several reason including penetration,price,reduced recoil compared to other calibers & the capacity of most full size 9mm semi-automatic pistols.

Oh, good night! Please, no. Not this again.

Quote:

I'm curious as to what your position is.

Pick one. Shoot it.

Squabbling over any of the standard ("9mm and above, can get at Walmart if you have to.") cartridges is trying to optimize something that can't be very well optimized.

Cops and the military choose their rounds for reasons that don't really have a huge amount to do with me and my choices.

reddog81 · February 17, 2018, 12:35 AM

Ultimate handgun round... I vote 500 S&W.

Any of the above mentioned rounds is adequate. 9mm typically gets you more rounds or a much smaller gun. .45 ACP gets you more power. 40 S&W is a compromise between the 2.

The best answer is to shoot some guns in each round and make a decision based upon what fits your needs the best. Then practice a bunch. Someone who practices weekly with a .22 is going to be better off when push comes to shove compared to your average gun owner that doesn't even make it to the range once or twice a year.

**Spats McGee** · February 17, 2018, 07:13 AM

This one seems doomed to become One More Caliber War.

February 16, 2018, 04:26 AM	#1
tacstar Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 20	The Ultimate Round Debate I watched two videos by well known Youtube channel host discussing the pros & cons of various calibers & which ones they deem superior & why. I was wondering how they arrive at their conclusions & is there any statistical or other data to support their positions. Neither is a fan of the .45ACP & it's ones position that the .40S&W has declined in popularity since it's debut in 1990 & many LE agencies have abandoned the platform hence there are several police trade-ins in .40S&W available. The general consensus is 9mm is the preferred round for several reason including penetration,price,reduced recoil compared to other calibers & the capacity of most full size 9mm semi-automatic pistols. I'm curious as to what your position is. I've attached links to the videos for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NR3roFBYNU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzy59wb3JvU

February 16, 2018, 05:46 AM	#3
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	rounds There may be number of stopping power studies, but I think there are 3 landmark studies. The granddaddy of stopping power studies is the Thompson-Lagarde work done in 1904. The US Army shot live cattle and some human cadavers. The result was the .45acp selection for the 1911. Somewhere in the 1970's, I can recall NYPD studies being cited as to number of rounds fired, percentage hits and so forth.......NYPD has a recent study that details the past 10 years or so. The study is more behavior and officer related than it is ballistically leaning. There may be others, but the next I can speak to is Sanow and Marshall Two gun scribes, Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall, did an analyses of shootings in the 1980' and published a book in the early 90's coming up with percentage likelihood of one shot stops. It was something in its day, but is looked at critically 20+ yrs later. In more recent years, a Dr. Martin Fackler did quite a bit of wounding research. He was an advocate of ballistic gel testing and worked with the FBI establishing standards. Quite recently, the FBI says there is no difference in most handgun wounds from service calibers, and for that and certain tactical (more bullets cause you might miss a lot and the increased threat of multiple bad guys) and administrative reasons (read easy to shoot and cheaper) they tout the 9mm is all you need.

February 16, 2018, 02:46 PM	#12
peterg7 Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2017 Posts: 316	The Ultimate Round Debate I’m not letting you tube warriors or ammo tests done by shill ammo sellers sway my choice. I just would like to pay a reasonable price for .380acp fmj Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

February 16, 2018, 04:35 PM	#14
Terminatorret Member Join Date: January 27, 2015 Location: Tyler, TX Posts: 73	Bravo, peterg7. I concur 100%. __________________ "You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." Davy Crockett, hero of the Alamo.

February 17, 2018, 07:13 AM	#18
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	This one seems doomed to become One More Caliber War. __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.

February 16, 2018, 04:47 AM	#2
dano1200r Member Join Date: December 28, 2008 Posts: 30	That is one awful video. Alot of subjective and no objective solid data. I don't care about the few penny difference in buying a 45 round VS a 9mm round. Kickback isn't an issue for everyone, including me. And to say a 185 gr traveling at 1100 to 1300 fps won't impart more energy into a target than a 115 gr going 1000 fps is just bad math. It was interesting can reading though. And if it matters, I shoot em both, because one between the eyes and it really doesn't matter.

February 16, 2018, 06:14 AM	#4
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	The best round is the one you handle and shoot the best. I know, that's an answer that doesn't answer the question. For me, I like revolvers and especially the .38/.357 setup with emphasis on the .38 in its best plus P configuration. But I also like the 9 mm, again in its best configurations. The .40, .45 are very good but they're not what I gravitate to nor do they get paired with guns I especially like.

February 16, 2018, 07:22 AM	#5
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Group the major service calibers together and their various "boutique" offshoots. Throw in the .357 and 10MM. They are more alike then different. Putting your shots on target is much more important then a few hundredths of an inch, 100 grains, or a couple hundred foot pounds of energy when discussing human sized adversaries.

February 16, 2018, 08:11 AM	#7
RETG Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: Somewhere in Idaho, near WY Posts: 507	From my experience a nine can do the job quite well, as will a .45. However, I preferred to carry more rounds since there were usually more than one target. My primary experience did not come from carrying a gun in the USA, but in countries where the nine was very common.

February 16, 2018, 09:16 AM	#8
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	RETG touches on probably one of the most important facts about handgun calibers. Throughout the world the 9 mm is pretty much the accepted caliber. Even 50 years ago, while our military sidearm was usually the .45, all our allies and enemies had sidearms in basically the 9 mm configuration.

February 16, 2018, 02:17 PM	#10
sakata8242 Member Join Date: August 14, 2010 Posts: 55	I used to like Yankee's videos for the satire and humor....lately now I think he's gone a bit off the deep end. He has some strong opinions on various matters but they're just that - opinions.

February 16, 2018, 02:33 PM	#11
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	I have no idea what his point was because I could not stand to watch it.

February 16, 2018, 04:17 PM	#13
Northof50 Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2018 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 232	Aside from Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch channel, I don't watch any YouTube "gun" channels. Most don't do the shooting community any favors. The fact is, there is no ultimate round. The handgun is a marginal emergency weapon. Much will depend on your marksmanship while under pressure, the target provided by your subject as well as his/her willingness to continue the fight. Bullet performance is more important than caliber, as the damaged caused by the expanded bullet is far more effective than the kinetic energy delivered by the round - which is why the rifle is so much more effective. Though only my opinion, I think far too much emphasis is placed on gel-tests as well. Of all the things you can say about the wonderful human body - monolithic is not among them. It is impossible for a block of gel to simulate everything from bone, liquid, air, muscle, fat etc. There's a great interview with Bob Stasch, a Chicago cop who has been in 14 gun fights. Massad Ayoob did the interview. A great perspective on firearms, back up guns, extra magazines. Well worth a listen.

February 16, 2018, 04:40 PM	#15
OzeanJaeger Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2014 Posts: 301	There are 105lb female soldiers and FBI agents. Do you think they're going to choose a service weapon that some of them can't effectively use? It wasn't just small females who did not like the recoil of the .40. The service weapon of choice for a couple of thousand random people is not going to be the same as the one you choose FOR YOU. Basing your decisions off government procurement procedures is not wise. By the same token just about anyone could shoot a .38 revolver, which is why it was the LEO handgun of choice for almost 100 years.

February 17, 2018, 12:35 AM	#17
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Ultimate handgun round... I vote 500 S&W. Any of the above mentioned rounds is adequate. 9mm typically gets you more rounds or a much smaller gun. .45 ACP gets you more power. 40 S&W is a compromise between the 2. The best answer is to shoot some guns in each round and make a decision based upon what fits your needs the best. Then practice a bunch. Someone who practices weekly with a .22 is going to be better off when push comes to shove compared to your average gun owner that doesn't even make it to the range once or twice a year.