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Old September 9, 2023, 11:37 AM   #126
bac1023
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Guys, these guns aren’t worth my time discussing. If any of you enjoy them, that’s fine. I said multiple times, they are good budget, entry level 1911’s.

I’m fully aware that I’m a gun snob. My handgun collection alone is well over a million dollars in today’s value. Most being collectibles, but I do have a vast collection of modern high end shooters, including dozens of 1911’s and 2011’s. I did this through hard work without anything given to me.

I only say that to illustrate why my judgement can be harsh and/or jaded. While many think the guns I buy are a waste of money, in my eyes buying budget guns are a waste of money, because I’d never shoot them.

It is what it is. Buy what you wish.
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Old September 9, 2023, 11:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by bac1023
Guys, these guns aren’t worth my time discussing.
It’s certainly fair that you don’t want to discuss something. I will remind you that you chose to participate in this thread. In doing so people are naturally going to ask clarifying questions about comments you make. If you can’t or won’t back those up, it strikes me as the kid taking his ball and going home. That’s a subjective view, however.
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:26 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bac1023
Guys, these guns aren’t worth my time discussing.
It’s certainly fair that you don’t want to discuss something. I will remind you that you chose to participate in this thread. In doing so people are naturally going to ask clarifying questions about comments you make. If you can’t or won’t back those up, it strikes me as the kid taking his ball and going home. That’s a subjective view, however.
Well said especially since the original post is asking for recommendations on a 1911 . He states he can't afford a Colt.
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:28 PM   #129
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On a pistol that was designed over 100 years ago, what defines the “full modern 1911 experience”? If you mean “high end”, as you later state, that’s one thing. There are certainly pistols made with objectively more costly parts and more costly labor, but is that then what defines the “full modern 1911 experience”?
This would be my idea of a full modern 1911 experience. I have some vintage collectible 1911's that I didn't include.

Infinity Tiki, S&W Koenig PC1911, Ruger Koenig Compeition, Cabot National Standard, Cabot Nero, Cabot Vintage Classic, ACW Prime, RRA Limited Match, RRA Limited Match

Ed Brown Evo 9, Ed Brown FX1, Ed Brown Kobra Carry, Ed Brown Special Forces, Pistol Dynamics Signature, Nighthawk Agent 2, Nighthawk Bull, Nighthawk Tri Cut Carry, Nighthawk Firehawk

Springfield Custom TGO1, Springfield Custom Professional, Wilson EDC X9L, Wilson Vickers Elite, Wilson CQB Elite, Guncrafter BC-17 Hellcat, Guncrafter Model 2, Les Baer American Handgunner, Les Baer Monolith Heavyweight







Here's my idea of the full 2011 experience, though I'm still awaiting my Pit Viper.

Staccato XC, Staccato XL, Rogue Alpha, Nighthawk TRS Comp

Triarc Tri-11, Atlas Hyperion, Atlas Titan, TTI Combat Master

Infinity Doubkke Stack, Limcat Wildcat, Limcat Wildcat, Phoenix Trinity Honcho

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Old September 9, 2023, 12:30 PM   #130
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1911 45 auto

It’s nice that you have such a large collection, but that’s just a list of things you own. While I applaud that you have earned the money to afford such a collection, the value of which you have mentioned twice, you don’t actually state what features make those the “full modern 1911 experience”. So then is it that the only way another person can have the “full modern 1911 experience” is to purchase as many and as expensive 1911s as yourself?
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:32 PM   #131
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It’s certainly fair that you don’t want to discuss something. I will remind you that you chose to participate in this thread. In doing so people are naturally going to ask clarifying questions about comments you make. If you can’t or won’t back those up, it strikes me as the kid taking his ball and going home. That’s a subjective view, however.
Back up what? UI don't need to back up anything.

If it helps, I have owned both Turkish and Filipino 1911's in the past. In fact, I owned several Filipino models along with one Turkish model.

That was about 10 years ago, but I've handled several new Tisas and Girsan 1911's to know what I'm looking at. I don't feel they're bad guns for the money, if that's how you choose to spend.
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:36 PM   #132
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It’s nice that you have such a large collection, but that’s just a list of things you own. While I applaud that you have earned the money to afford such a collection, the value of which you have mentioned twice, you don’t actually state what features make those the “full modern 1911 experience”. So then is it that the only way another person can have the “full modern 1911 experience” is to purchase as many and as expensive 1911s as yourself?
I shoot every model pictured, to include some local matches.

The modern 1911 experience to me is to experience the top performing models. If you disagree, so be it. I see too many people judge the platform negatively and all they own or had owned was entry level stuff. I see it all the time on the forums and in person. The starting point in my eyes would be at least a Dan Wesson. If you can't afford that, best to go to another platform as far as I'm concerned.
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:41 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
I shoot every model pictured, to include some local matches.

The modern 1911 experience to me is to experience the top performing models. If you disagree, so be it. I see too many people judge the platform negatively and all they own or had owned was entry level stuff. I see it all the time on the forums and in person.

I didn’t claim you didn’t shoot them.

The original comment is how you stated that someone owning a Tisas cannot experience the “full modern 1911 experience”. To me that would indicate features that these pistols have that fundamentally change the shooting experience. It would seem that to you that fundamentally different experience is the cost of the parts and the labor and the impact those have on the resulting quality of the pistol. Then I guess people who cannot own these pistols will sadly not get to have this experience, given that many here have admitted to not being able to afford as much, including the OP in asking for recommendations of a 1911 that they could afford.

You say people will judge the platform negatively based on negative experiences with entry level stuff. Yet ironically the people that owned Tisas pistols seem to have had positive experiences, at least in this thread. The only one that seems negative on the platform based on those entry level models is yourself, who admittedly hasn’t owned a Turkish 1911 in 10 years.
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:52 PM   #134
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I didn’t claim you didn’t shoot them.

The original comment is how you stated that someone owning a Tisas cannot experience the “full modern 1911 experience”. To me that would indicate features that these pistols have that fundamentally change the shooting experience. It would seem that to you that fundamentally different experience is the cost of the parts and the labor and the impact those have on the resulting quality of the pistol. Then I guess people who cannot own these pistols will sadly not get to have this experience, given that many here have admitted to not being able to afford as much, including the OP in asking for recommendations of a 1911 that they could afford.

You say people will judge the platform negatively based on negative experiences with entry level stuff. Yet ironically the people that owned Tisas pistols seem to have had positive experiences, at least in this thread. The only one that seems negative on the platform based on those entry level models is yourself, who admittedly hasn’t owned a Turkish 1911 in 10 years.
With all due respect, I don't need to own a new Tisas to have an opinion of what they are and how they're built. Been shooting 1911's for over 30 years. Most experienced people don't need to buy a gun to have an opinion. I don't buy anything in that price rang, other than my polymer "tools".

Its not about features. Cheap 1911's can be totally decked out with features. Its about fit, finish, trigger feel, accuracy, smoothness, etc, etc.

By the way, people like them, because they're affordable and they work. Nothing wrong with that if that's your criteria. However, I know several people who frown on the 1911 platform with only ever owning models that cost no more than the plastic gun they're carrying. It happens.
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Old September 9, 2023, 12:57 PM   #135
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With all due respect, I don't need to own a new Tisas to have an opinion of what they are and how they're built. Been shooting 1911's for over 30 years. Most experienced people don't need to buy a gun to have an opinion. I don't buy anything in that price rang, other than my polymer "tools".

Its not about features. Cheap 1911's can be totally decked out with features. Its about fit, finish, trigger feel, accuracy, smoothness, etc, etc.

By the way, people like them, because they're affordable and they work. Nothing wrong with that if that's your criteria. However, I know several people who frown on the 1911 platform with only ever owning models that cost no more than the plastic gun they're carrying. It happens.

You certainly can have an opinion without owning something. It my opinion that does impact the legitimacy of that opinion, but, as you yourself have said, that’s just an opinion.

I don’t doubt it does happen that people have a negative opinion from having bad experiences. My point is per this thread it hasn’t happened with these Tisas owners, in fact the opposite, so in this context it doesn’t seem overly relevant. I have also had issues personally with Colt, S&W, Springfield, and even a Wilson 1911. While issues can certainly be more common on the low end, more expensive options aren’t immune either.
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Old September 9, 2023, 01:04 PM   #136
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You certainly can have an opinion without owning something. It my opinion that does impact the legitimacy of that opinion, but, as you yourself have said, that’s just an opinion.

I don’t doubt it does happen that people have a negative opinion from having bad experiences. My point is per this thread it hasn’t happened with these Tisas owners, in fact the opposite, so in this context it doesn’t seem overly relevant. I have also had issues personally with Colt, S&W, Springfield, and even a Wilson 1911. While issues can certainly be more common on the low end, more expensive options aren’t immune either.
Yes, expansive 1911's can certainly have issues. I never have had any, but a good friend of mine had to send his Nighthawk in to be smoothed out because it locked up.

My point is buying the least expensive example of any design is generally not the way to experience the platform and why its so popular. That's what Turkish guns are, cheap clones, whether it be a 1911 or otherwise. Not my cup of tea at all. Like I said, Dan Wesson is what I consider a good starting point for a quality 1911.
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Old September 9, 2023, 01:06 PM   #137
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So, if they made the exact same gun, but paid their workers 3x or 5x as much would it feel like a better gun to you??
No it wouldn't. It would feel like a better gun to me if it were a better gun.
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Old September 9, 2023, 01:09 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
Yes, expansive 1911's can certainly have issues. I never have had any, but a good friend of mine had to send his Nighthawk in to be smoothed out because it locked up.

My point is buying the least expensive example of any design is generally not the way to experience the platform and why its so popular. That's what Turkish guns are, cheap clones, whether it be a 1911 or otherwise. Not my cup of tea at all. Like I said, Dan Wesson is what I consider a good starting point for a quality 1911.

Unfortunately for some that’s the only way they will ever get to experience one platform or another. Not everyone has the luxury of a larger disposable income and the opportunities it affords. Given that many people on this thread were able to have seemingly positive experiences with a Tisas, I wouldn’t personally rule it out if I was the OP. I think your caution is fair, however, so thank you for affording us your time to explain, even if the pistols are not worth it.
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Old September 9, 2023, 01:13 PM   #139
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Unfortunately for some that’s the only way they will ever get to experience one platform or another. Not everyone has the luxury of a larger disposable income and the opportunities it affords. Given that many people on this thread were able to have seemingly positive experiences with a Tisas, I wouldn’t personally rule it out if I was the OP.
...and that's fair, in my opinion. I'm not saying they aren't nicer than some of the lower end American models.

I personally only buy American 1911's, but that's me.

I do own a ton of foreign handguns. In fact, most my collection is comprised of guns made abroad. If Turkey churned out more than just low cost clones of proven designs, I might be more interested. That's what their game is though.
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Old September 9, 2023, 05:46 PM   #140
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Cheap labor means what, exactly?? Workers get paid less than US union scale wages??? Consider the fact that cheap labor is not the issue, subpar products come from subpar company standards, no matter what labor costs are.
The reality today is that cheap labor just means the guy putting the raw frame into the CNC machine in Turkey gets paid less than the guy putting the raw frame into a CNC machine in West Hartford or Pigeon Forge gets paid.
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Old September 9, 2023, 06:30 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
The reality today is that cheap labor just means the guy putting the raw frame into the CNC machine in Turkey gets paid less than the guy putting the raw frame into a CNC machine in West Hartford or Pigeon Forge gets paid.

A while back I picked up a Century Arms AP5. This is an MP5 clone made in Turkey by MKE on what is supposedly HK tooling. A stamped firearm on licensed German machinery. I was told online that, “how could it go wrong”? That firearm had loads of issues, including a rear sight that was attached so poorly that the firearm couldn’t even be zeroed. Century ended up sending me a replacement firearm and that was great.

Now by my understanding stampings are more complicated than CNC machining, even if an older technology. Even still my guess is the machinists and assemblers at HK learned some things over the decades, which is likely in part why my HK magazines will feed hollowpoints and my MKE magazines won’t. I also had friends that worked on the manufacturing end of SIG Sauer, Inc. doing CNC and I heard plenty of stories of entire batches of parts, thousands at a time, being tossed due to someone screwing up. I think CNC and other automated methods help reduce the possibility of certain problems, but even then experience still matters.
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Old September 10, 2023, 12:30 AM   #142
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heard plenty of stories of entire batches of parts, thousands at a time, being tossed due to someone screwing up. I think CNC and other automated methods help reduce the possibility of certain problems, but even then experience still matters.
When things were made with more human hands on involvement lots of errors happened. People do make mistakes. However, in the old days, with parts made or finished by hand, someone screwing up something generally affected smaller numbers of parts, and often only the stuff that guy made, that shift.

Today, a screw up in a computer value setting can run until someone checks the finished product and thousands of units may have been made to the wrong specs before someone catches it.

Many folks in management I've met or worked under over the years actually believe that written procedures and automated equipment allow trained monkeys to produce a good product and experienced, skilled workers are an expensive thing of the past.

Good operators know more than just how to feed in stock and push the run button. The best operators learn their machines, how they work, and why they work the way they do, and what to do when they don't work correctly.

There's an old joke about that, but still true, about how a guy automates his factory and maked his widgits without any of the former workers. Things are humming along and he's making money hand over fist.
Then the machines stop. Nothing he does gets them running again.

He calls the repair guy (one of the replaced workers). Guy comes in, checks things out, pushes one button and it starts running again. Owner is happy until he gets the bill.

Restart autofactory...$5000

Owner is upset!! says he won't pay, its ridiculous! All you did was push one button!!

Repair guy takes back the bill and gives him another one.

Restart autofactory.....$10,000
pushing one button..........$1
Knowing what button to push ......$9,999
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Old September 10, 2023, 08:32 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
When things were made with more human hands on involvement lots of errors happened. People do make mistakes. However, in the old days, with parts made or finished by hand, someone screwing up something generally affected smaller numbers of parts, and often only the stuff that guy made, that shift.

Today, a screw up in a computer value setting can run until someone checks the finished product and thousands of units may have been made to the wrong specs before someone catches it.

Many folks in management I've met or worked under over the years actually believe that written procedures and automated equipment allow trained monkeys to produce a good product and experienced, skilled workers are an expensive thing of the past.

Good operators know more than just how to feed in stock and push the run button. The best operators learn their machines, how they work, and why they work the way they do, and what to do when they don't work correctly.

There's an old joke about that, but still true, about how a guy automates his factory and maked his widgits without any of the former workers. Things are humming along and he's making money hand over fist.
Then the machines stop. Nothing he does gets them running again.

He calls the repair guy (one of the replaced workers). Guy comes in, checks things out, pushes one button and it starts running again. Owner is happy until he gets the bill.

Restart autofactory...$5000

Owner is upset!! says he won't pay, its ridiculous! All you did was push one button!!

Repair guy takes back the bill and gives him another one.

Restart autofactory.....$10,000
pushing one button..........$1
Knowing what button to push ......$9,999
True story.

Long long ago in a land far far away I was selling computer systems and one client was a bank. They called and printer was not working. The person who called said he was tired of us coming out to do about a minute of work and sending him a big bill.

Came out and he showed me the printer and pointed out that it was still plugged in to the wall socket but would not turn on. I asked if they had moved the printer and he said no, well just to the other side of the desk.

Sure enough when I looked behind the desk there was the other end of the power cord on the floor, now about three inches short of the new position.

I gave him two options; I could take it to the shop and find a longer power cord which would be two service call charges and about a week to order the longer power cord or he could pay our normal single service call charge and I'd even move the printer back to the other side of the desk and plug it back in for him.

He wrote a nasty letter to my boss.
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Old September 10, 2023, 10:46 AM   #144
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Guys, these guns aren’t worth my time discussing.
Then don't. We're not forcing you to discuss them. You keep coming back and doing nothing but praising high end guns and a lot of us couldn't care less about them. I know you're going to come back and say something snarky. You just can't help yourself.
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Old September 10, 2023, 11:18 AM   #145
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Then don't. We're not forcing you to discuss them. You keep coming back and doing nothing but praising high end guns and a lot of us couldn't care less about them. I know you're going to come back and say something snarky. You just can't help yourself.
Cause the high end models are where it’s at. I always advise people to buy at least a Dan Wesson or choose another platform. You can get a lot of nice pistols under $1000-$1500. The 1911 just isn’t one of them.

I didn’t enter the thread to talk about Turkeys, but my comment ruffled some feathers. It’s all good though. I do admit they’re more for the money than some of the lower end American models.
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Old September 10, 2023, 11:55 AM   #146
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27 1911A1 pattern pistols in one picture, 12 in another, and not a single one is a gun I would own.

Race guns and "space" guns just aren't my thing. Whale tails and speed bumps annoy me. I don't play speed games, and many of the currently popular "bells & whistles" features are things that I don't want, or need, and some of them detract from the gun, for me.

Do your thing, enjoy it, that's what hobbies are for.
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Old September 10, 2023, 01:11 PM   #147
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18 1911A1 pattern pistols in one picture, 12 in another, and not a single one is a gun I would own.

Race guns and "space" guns just aren't my thing. Whale tails and speed bumps annoy me. I don't play speed games, and many of the currently popular "bells & whistles" features are things that I don't want, or need, and some of them detract from the gun, for me.

Do your thing, enjoy it, that's what hobbies are for.
Might want to recount those

Actually I have a lot of traditional stuff too, but those don’t shoot like these do. You want the best shooting semi auto pistols, this is what to look for. Not saying they’re for everyone, but they are the best shooters in the world, bar none.
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Old September 10, 2023, 01:19 PM   #148
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18 1911A1 pattern pistols in one picture, 12 in another, and not a single one is a gun I would own.
Neither would I. The OP stated he probably couldn't afford a Kimber or Colt. That makes all of this Ludicrous.
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Old September 10, 2023, 01:54 PM   #149
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Neither would I. The OP stated he probably couldn't afford a Kimber or Colt. That makes all of this Ludicrous.
I was answering questions about high end 1911’s and decided to illustrate with some of mine. Nothing ludicrous about it.

…and, no, they aren’t for everyone and were never intended to be. We don’t live in a communist country (at least not yet). Plus, as Dirty Harry once said, “a man’s got to know his limitations.”

That’s why there’s 1911’s for all different means and skill sets.
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Old September 10, 2023, 04:43 PM   #150
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Just yesterday I was at my daughters and shot her hubby's new 1911 45, really enjoyed shooting it and it was quite accurate. Now I want 1, what brand should I get, I am fond of Kimber and Ruger, probably cant afford a colt, any input would be great, also looking for a good choice for cc..
Boy, did you ever get some input! This reminds me of the great 9mm vs 45acp threads of days past. Didn't there use to be a "get out the popcorn and get ready for the show" meme that was always posted?

I wonder if the OP has found something he likes?
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