.357 Rem Maximum vs .44 Mag for grizzly/polar bear defense?

[44 AMP]

ohh, where to start...we've wandered more than a bit off topic...

The OP was very specific, .357 Rem Maximum vs. .44 Magnum for grizzly/polarbear defense.

So, bringing in other calibers is off topic.
Arrows are off topic.
Bear Spray is off topic.

Want to discuss the paper ballistics of various .357 Max and .44 Mag loads? Fine.

Want to discuss any degree of practicality, it gest tougher, because .357 Max repeaters are few and far between and most of the few you will find are SA revolvers. Which does not mean they're useless, only that they're rare and the .44 Mag is not.

SO discuss a rare round designed to do a certain thing in a shooting game, vs a common big bore round designed for hunting, and fairly large beasts at that.

IS a S&W M29 too big and too heavy for you? Once it was huge, today its the smaller and lighter DA .44 Mag commonly found.

Want to shoot full power .44 Mag fast?? Port the gun! Or get a Desert Eagle.
Really big and heavy damps recoil a lot. But, there's no free lunch, and there's no magic bullet.

Lots of things have the paper energy to kill even the biggest bear. If you are motivated enough, you could even do it with a pointy stick. Which is what one fellow actually had to do a few decades ago. Bowhunter, surprised and attacked by a grizzly bear, wound up killing the bear by STABBING (not shooting) it with a broadhead arrow. (aka pointy stick). Which is the way arrows work, not by velocity, but by shoving a inch+ wide razorblade through part of the animal that bleeds heavily. Comparing arrows to a .45, or any other sidearm is apples and oranges.

.357 Max sure has the power needed, so does the .44 Mag. Personally, I'd go with the .44 Mag, but then, I think bigger bullets tend to work better.

[SATRP]

Hi American Man,

I'm good with pursuit of Socratic knowledge.

I've hunted in griz country in Idaho and Wyoming. I have never nor will I ever carry a handgun while I'm hunting big game with a high powered rifle. Hence, I agree with your advice that a handgun in not enough gun when a beast that wants to eat me is fixing to try.

I've fished in Rocky Mountain states and the Eastern Sierra. I've seen more black bears while fishing than hunting. A shoulder fired weapon while fishing is useless. I want a big handgun that I can get pointed at a charging anything as fast as possible.

This is what works for me. It might not work for everyone.

Any weapon is useless if it cannot be deployed in a huge hurry. The way I see it, getting 230 grain .45 Auto rounds on a charging bear is a whole lot better than bringing to battery a .44 Mag and larger handgun.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as easy to carry as a 1911A1.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as fast to battery than a 1911A1.

I've fired large cartridge handguns. I'd pay to see anyone accurately and rapidly fire a Model 29 into a silhouette at 10 yards and place all 6 in center mass...or even on target. It won't be done with a .454 Casull. That's why I call them one-and-done handguns: a person would be lucky to get off one well placed round. As you've noted, speed of griz and recoil of big cartridge revolvers would make an accurate follow up shot a prayer.

I know how fast I can accurately empty a 1911A1 magazine, and how fast I can reload 8 more.

After a few decades in mean critter country to include griz country, I've figured out that accurately placing a lot of big bullets on a charging bear works best for me. It might not work for everyone, but it works best for me.

I do own good quality revolvers. For reliability, I'd take a good quality semi every time.

A fully loaded Springfield Armory 1911-A1 TRP .45 Auto, which is the production version of SA's famed FBI Custom Shop 1911-A1, is money in the bank. I've yet to experience a single issue with mine. It shoots everything loaded into it, and it's one of the most if not the most accurate handgun I've ever fired, and that includes vaunted Sigs.

Finally, in comparison to mega-magnum cartridges that require heavy revolvers to fire, the .45 Auto seems, at superficial glance, to lack ability to dispatch jackrabbits. However, in reality, it is an extremely powerful cartridge that can be fired in what might be the most ergonomic of all handguns. My guess is no other handgun ever created has the mystical, natural point of a full-size 1911A1. A 1911A1 has a more divine point than an index finger.

As a comprehensive package, I'll take a 1911A1 .45 Auto every single time.

[SATRP]

Hi .44 AMP,

That's not the way people talk. A point of a topic will lead to discovery of knowledge in related topic.

It's entirely reasonable to transition to the NFL draft when discussing NCAA QB's. It's how people normally talk.

[American Man]

Originally Posted by SATRP

Hi American Man,

I'm good with pursuit of Socratic knowledge.

I've hunted in griz country in Idaho and Wyoming. I have never nor will I ever carry a handgun while I'm hunting big game with a high powered rifle. Hence, I agree with your advice that a handgun in not enough gun when a beast that wants to eat me is fixing to try.

I've fished in Rocky Mountain states and the Eastern Sierra. I've seen more black bears while fishing than hunting. A shoulder fired weapon while fishing is useless. I want a big handgun that I can get pointed at a charging anything as fast as possible.

This is what works for me. It might not work for everyone.

Any weapon is useless if it cannot be deployed in a huge hurry. The way I see it, getting 230 grain .45 Auto rounds on a charging bear is a whole lot better than bringing to battery a .44 Mag and larger handgun.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as easy to carry as a 1911A1.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as fast to battery than a 1911A1.

I've fired large cartridge handguns. I'd pay to see anyone accurately and rapidly fire a Model 29 into a silhouette at 10 yards and place all 6 in center mass...or even on target. It won't be done with a .454 Casull. That's why I call them one-and-done handguns: a person would be lucky to get off one well placed round. As you've noted, speed of griz and recoil of big cartridge revolvers would make an accurate follow up shot a prayer.

I know how fast I can accurately empty a 1911A1 magazine, and how fast I can reload 8 more.

After a few decades in mean critter country to include griz country, I've figured out that accurately placing a lot of big bullets on a charging bear works best for me. It might not work for everyone, but it works best for me.

I do own good quality revolvers. For reliability, I'd take a good quality semi every time.

A fully loaded Springfield Armory 1911-A1 TRP .45 Auto, which is the production version of SA's famed FBI Custom Shop 1911-A1, is money in the bank. I've yet to experience a single issue with mine. It shoots everything loaded into it, and it's one of the most if not the most accurate handgun I've ever fired, and that includes vaunted Sigs.

Finally, in comparison to mega-magnum cartridges that require heavy revolvers to fire, the .45 Auto seems, at superficial glance, to lack ability to dispatch jackrabbits. However, in reality, it is an extremely powerful cartridge that can be fired in what might be the most ergonomic of all handguns. My guess is no other handgun ever created has the mystical, natural point of a full-size 1911A1. A 1911A1 has a more divine point than an index finger.

As a comprehensive package, I'll take a 1911A1 .45 Auto every single time.

I won't say I agree with you, but I understand where you are coming from. For HD and medium game, I think your set up is excellent. Personally, I just would not be comfortable with +P 45 ACP in any situation with the bigger creatures. Not that I would rely on 357 or 357 Max, but I think a HC in either is going to hit and penetrate more than 45 acp... not counting 45 Super. The CNS is the target and depending on angle, it could be covered by a foot or two of fat, bone and muscle and the skull is tougher than a kevlar helmet.

The minimum would be 44... 300gr and above.

[agtman]

Proof's in the bleedin' puddin'.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/ala...rf-richardson/

Forget all the official recommendations of sissified bear-perfume sprays.

Just use a 10mm and shoot the dang thang. That's what Demark's Sirius Patrol soldiers do if attacked by polar bears while out in the arctic regions of Greenland. No happy tree-hugger talk. It's point-n-shoot.

10mm Gen4 Glock 20 for the big win against an aggressive bruin.

'Nuff said right there.

[P Flados]

This is an incredible thread. This many postings and only one that even comes close.

Although the cartridge looks impressive, the 357 max as we know it is not a bear round. It was meant for a long barrel target / hunting gun.

Nearly all factory guns had long barrels. They also have huge frames.

Of the guns, the most practical would be the Dan Wesson. I say this as they are probably the most available, the only double action and it would be doable to get the custom conversion to something like a 4" ported barrel. Even with a 4" barrel it would still be a very large and heavy gun. With a 4" barrel, the regular maximum ballistics would just not be there, but it could do good enough with the right heavy JHP.

Now contrary to what was indicated in a previous post, a 4" ported 357 maximum Dan Wesson would have an advantage in the recoil department. I base this on having fired thousands of maximum rounds from my 8" Dan Wesson. This includes lots of standing practice and quite a few IHMSA rounds in the standing category. Even with full power 200 gr loads and 45 shots per round, the recoil did not bother me in the slightest with the 8" barrel. Actually, the weight of the gun did bother me enough such that I gave up using this gun for standing. With a 4" ported, the recoil would be worse, but the weight and handling would be a lot better.

The above does not mean all 357 maximums are as easy shooting. I also have a 10" contender in 357 maximum. For the TC, any full power 160, 180 or 200 gr load is miserable. The 200s are so bad that my wrist was sore for days after the last time I fired off a dozen or so.

Next comes ammo. For the 44, feedback from actual use tends to indicate that heavy factory jacketed hollow points are probably the best choice. For the 357 maximum, there is next to nothing for factory ammo and there is no experience base with maximums and big bears. Heck I do not even know if there is an available bullet that is a good choice.

The 357 max could have been an acceptable big bear gun if a 4" ported version of the Dan Wesson had been successfully marketed with the right ammo. The marketing angle would have been that the reduced recoil would increase probability for hits 2, 3, and 4 for this application where single hits are no where near reliable in stopping the threat and each follow up hit increases to probability of a good outcome. The biggest downside of the gun vs. the other choices would be the extra weight. Not only is there a huge frame / barrel with small holes in the cylinder and barrel, but the 357 max would need a longer barrel to achieve a similar level of effectiveness as other choices.

Now having said the above, the same gun in 41 Supermag would be a much better choice for anyone that could tolerate the increase in recoil and who did the practicing needed to achieve the same multiple hit probability.

I am pretty recoil tolerant. If I really needed a big bear sidearm, I would start with a 5 shot Raging Bull in 454 with something like a 3" or 4" ported barrel. The gun is smaller and more handy than the 454 sixguns. Your chance of both needing and having time for more than 5 shots is very low. I would do lots of full power DA practice with it to see if I could achieve adequate speed and control. If not, I would then try a DA 454 sixgun. If I found I could not master the 454, I would drop down to a DA 44. In the unlikely event that the 44 was too much, I would consider a 41 mag. I would not be satisfied until I was confident in having adequate speed and control in the biggest choice that I could master.

[jackmoser65]

This should be obvious. The 44 magnum, all day, every day and twice on Sunday. The 357's velocity does not make it better, it makes it shoot flatter which is what was needed for silhouette shooting, which is what it was designed for. Big bores using heavy bullets are what is effective on big dudes like bears. The Buffalo Bore 340gr +p+ is what is needed, not lightweight bullets run fast. That or something like their dangerous game load, or the Grizzly punch loads.

The fact that some european government agency chose a Glock 10mm as a sidearm where bears might be encountered is not evidence that it is a good bear cartridge. Give me a break already.

[44 AMP]

The Buffalo Bore 340gr +p+ is what is needed,

Which, you can't use if you have a S&W M 29....

I disagree. Not with the choice of .44 Mag over .357 Max but with the idea that 340gr+p+ is needed. This implies that lesser loads won't work, and that is simply not true.

[walnut1704]

.357 Maximum? Exactly which highly valuable and discontinued revolver are you contemplating?

This is like asking which is better for Pandas .... the .476 Enfield or the .450 Adams?

[agtman]

The fact that some european government agency chose a Glock 10mm as a sidearm where bears might be encountered is not evidence that it is a good bear cartridge. Give me a break already.

Dude, focus.

Denmark's Sirius Patrol units aren't just 'some European government agency.'

These units are comprised of young, single, top tier Danish male soldiers, all hand-selected, who are then trained and tasked with long-term deployment in a vast arctic environment. They're not Metro-Park rangers who are but five minutes away from the local Starbucks.

The 9mm Sigs which their 10mm G20s replaced weren't cutting it as sidearms in their not infrequent encounters with polar bears - as or more aggressive than Grizzleys and often larger.

Such encounters are unanticipated - polar bears, as a species, aren't known to give advanced warning of their presence - and have occurred during patrols as well as in base camp.

When they don't have their bolt-action .30-06 P1917s within reach, their 15+1 G20s is what they have on their person to deal with the beasty ....

End result: dead P-bear right there.

[AgedWarrior]

I carried a 4” 629 loaded with 280 grain hard cast flat nose over a liberal dose of H110 when I was in bear country. Practiced with the load for proficiency. Would practice and carry again if in bear country. The revolver was only a backup while hunting. Never had to defend against a bear though; staying on my toes (situational awareness) I was able to maintain enough distance and work myself away from encounters. Never had the pleasure of a polar bear encounter...would prefer to keep it that way.

[jackmoser65]

Which, you can't use if you have a S&W M 29....

I disagree. Not with the choice of .44 Mag over .357 Max but with the idea that 340gr+p+ is needed. This implies that lesser loads won't work, and that is simply not true.

The question was regarding cartridges, not guns.

How many big bears have you shot with handguns? When you're sharing space with critters who view you as prey, no chances are to be taken. Surely a lesser load might work but who wants to stake their life on "might"? That 44 magnum load is the minimum I would use and would prefer a 454, 475 or 500.

Dude, focus.

I don't care if it's John Wick. No amount of training or skill makes up for a poor choice in cartridge. If you think the 10mm is a great cartridge for big bears, you've obviously never shot one.

[44 AMP]

No amount of training or skill makes up for a poor choice in cartridge.

Don't forget the rest of the story, which is "No choice of cartridge makes up for a lack of training or skill".

How many big bears have you shot with handguns?

Really big bears? None. Black bears, a couple. Have seen a 12'6"Polar bear taken with .44Mag 240gr slugs, so don't imply it can't be done.

That 44 magnum load is the minimum I would use and would prefer a 454, 475 or 500.

Your choice, and welcome to it. I looked at the specs for that 340gr load, over 1400fps from a 7.5" barrel. No thanks.

I shoot 240s/250s at speeds up to 1600fps range in handguns, and can only imagine the recoil of a bullet that much heavier at that speed. Seems to me that the 340 at 1400 or a .454, 475 or .500 would reduce my already low possibility of a second aimed shot to about zero.

I've cleared 5 bowling pins off the table in 5.36 seconds with .44 Mag level loads. Didn't even place 3rd against the guys shooting race guns, but fast enough that I feel confident in getting a couple of aimed shots in anything but a point blank total surprise situation. I've cleared the table in 4.37 sec shooting a .357, 9 rounds. 7.02 sec shooting a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt (250gr @1100fps)

That's me, and I know bowling pin shooting doesn't translate directly to bear defense, but knowing what I have done gives me a fair feel for what I could do, and so I'll stick with what I know and have used.

Have you shot those Buffalo Bore 340s (and in what gun?) or the .454, 475 or 500?? Shoot any of them for speed and accuracy? How did you do??

[jackmoser65]

You know what I think about the 10mm as a bear cartridge but I'd rather have it loaded with the right bullet than the 44 magnum loaded with the wrong one. Most 240's are the wrong bullet.

I don't inject issues related to training into discussions of ballistics or hunting. If we're talking about guns/cartridges/loads and how effective they are bullet placement is a given.

I shoot them all regularly. The aforementioned 340gr load is but one example. You can easily throttle it back 200fps and get 90% of the effect. Recoil is nary a consideration when one's life is in danger.

[JohnKSa]

I don't inject issues related to training into discussions of ballistics or hunting. If we're talking about guns/cartridges/loads and how effective they are bullet placement is a given.

For a hunting situation where the likelihood of carefully picking a shot and only needing to fire once is fairly high, this makes perfect sense. However, this thread is not about hunting bears, it's about self-defense against bears.

If there's a reasonable chance that more than one shot will be required in a hurry, as is the case in self-defense against very large, very fast, predators, then it follows that the ability to place multiple shots in a hurry is a critically important consideration. It needs to be balanced against terminal ballistics to arrive at a reasonable compromise.

Recoil is nary a consideration when one's life is in danger.

It certainly is an issue if follow-up shots are required in a hurry. As recoil increases, the interval between shots will increase, or the accuracy will drop off, or both.

[44 AMP]

I agree the right bullet is a key component. SOME 240s aren't the right bullet, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say most, but perhaps. Choosing the right bullet for the game is vital.

The bullet has to be constructed to do the job AND has to do it at the velocity intended. One classic example is the .357 caliber 125gr JHP.

(today) They are well built for their intended use, which is against humans and in the velocity range of common .38 SPl & .357 Mag handguns. Drive them much faster such as from a .357 Maximum or a .357 carbine and their performance changes. Expansion becomes almost explosive, and penetration suffers as a result of that. Simply put, drive any expanding bullet 500 or more FPS faster than it is designed for, and it doesn't work as expected.

The aforementioned 340gr load is but one example. You can easily throttle it back 200fps and get 90% of the effect. Recoil is nary a consideration when one's life is in danger.

In this case, the aforementioned 340gr load is factory ammo from Buffalo Bore, and so, there's no "throttling back". If you're loading it yourself, yes, but if you're buying what they sell, then you're buying what they sell.

Recoil is a consideration IF a rapid second shot is a consideration. Most people think it is, in a defense situation, no matter what you are defending yourself against. What is best on paper and what is too much gun in the real world for a given person can easily be the same thing.

There are people who can shoot heavy recoiling pistols rapidly and accurately. Up to a certain level, I am one, myself. Beyond that level, I'm not, and I know that! And I know if from experience and practice.

I haven't seen you shoot, I won't say you can't do it. But, if you haven't done it, I don't think recommending something you don't have personal experience with to other people, who's abilities you have no idea of, does anyone any good.

[Nanuk]

I've fired large cartridge handguns. I'd pay to see anyone accurately and rapidly fire a Model 29 into a silhouette at 10 yards and place all 6 in center mass...or even on target.

OK, define fast. I am not as fast as Jerry but can get the job done. Just because you can't does not mean I can't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7W-5QE3jzw

[Nanuk]

I shoot 240s/250s at speeds up to 1600fps range in handguns, and can only imagine the recoil of a bullet that much heavier at that speed. Seems to me that the 340 at 1400 or a .454, 475 or .500 would reduce my already low possibility of a second aimed shot to about zero.

I was reading some years ago about moose hunting guides and such. Apparently the consensus was that a standard load hardcast 240 grain LSWC 44 mag will go stem to stern in a moose. Works for me.

[Nanuk]

Most 240's are the wrong bullet

Compare cast to cast, apples to apples. Most only applies if you close your eyes and grab a box of ammo.

[JimCunn]

"I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as fast to battery than a 1911A1".

Back in my younger days, including reaction time, I could get a Super Blackhawk unholstered and into action far faster than a 1911. But the second through the eighth shots were much faster out of the 1911. (I think I'd still go with the .44 Mag :-)

[jackmoser65]

Having taken four with handguns, I don't like to speak in absolutes but I know of no 240 grain bullets I'd use on a brown bear. The copper solids from Lehigh, Grizzly or Barnes do not fall into this category. I would go so far as to say that if you carry a 44 loaded with 240's in brown bear country, you're not taking it very seriously. They're deer bullets.

The 340 grain reference was just an example because I assume most shooters do not reload. The Buffalo Bore using the Lehigh bullet is also an excellent choice. Sorry but I know of no good bear bullets that are low in recoil. If you wanna effectively stop something that is 600-1000 pounds and angry at you, recoil is a fact of life.

But, if you haven't done it, I don't think recommending something you don't have personal experience with to other people, who's abilities you have no idea of, does anyone any good.

I could offer the same advice. I only speak from experience but make no judgement on any other person's ability. This discussion is about cartridges. Not rapidity of follow up shots, which is not going to happen anyway. Not shooter ability. Not shot placement. Not to even mention that the platforms available for the two cartridges are vastly different. The 357 max really shouldn't even be an option. 7.5 to 10 inch silhouette guns don't have great sidearms.

[MaxP]

Personally, I would be more comfortable with the .44 Mag over the .357 Max for the task outlined by the OP. A monolithic solid would be my bullet choice and I would ramp the speed up to the most tolerable and reliable level. I don't believe you will necessarily get multiple shots off so your first shot had better count. In the name of full disclosure, I have not killed a brown bear, but have killed several black bear with revolvers. JMHO.

[osbornk]

Our local bear hunting club uses 357 Ruger revolvers for their bear hunting. The dogs chase the bears up trees and they shoot them down. A few use 30-30 rifles.

[MaxP]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

OK, define fast. I am not as fast as Jerry but can get the job done. Just because you can't does not mean I can't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7W-5QE3jzw

A number of years ago I was asked by the managing editor of Smerican Hunter magazine to participate in a “.454 Challenge,” cooked up by Bryce Towsley. Towsley asserted that he could place 5 reasonably well aimed shots of full-tilt 300 grain .454 (from an FA83 with a 6-inch barrel) into a target at 15 feet in 3 seconds or less. We included a bunch of relative newbies in the challenge and most, with a little practice, we’re able to do it in under 5 seconds. The point is that whatever you choose as your bacon-saving sidearm, you must practice to a point of confidence and competence. How many shots will you actually be able to get off in a bear attack situation is hard to say, but knowing your firearm intimately is a definite plus no matter your choice. Again, I would lean towards the .44 before any .357. JMHO.

[badge851]

Within the parameter of the OP I would choose the 44 Remington® Magnum. Far, far better selection of both revolvers and ammunition is available. The revolver I would choose is...
• https://www.ruger.com/products/newModelSuperBlackhawkStandard/specSheets/0811.html

I would load it with the heaviest LWHNGC I could accurately shoot and manage the recoil for the fastest recovery for a second or multiple shot(s).

Now what I use as a dangerous game self-defense gun is a...
• https://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkBlued/specSheets/0405.html

I load the gun with...
• https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/41-remington-magnum-265-grain-lead-wide-long-nose-gas-check?variant=18786989998137

This load is the maximum I can handle in that gun! It took me 9 months of hard and dedicated practice to become proficient with the gun and load. I have a second Ruger® 6½" barrel 41 Magnum and it is easier to shoot with the Underwood® max load.

Max, I saw the video of that test and I recall you put 5 rounds on target 2.9* seconds. Let this Old Soldier tell you; Good job Marine!!!!!