Suggest ways to protect school age children.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Manta49

We can discus it but as i said its not going to happen, plus as i have also said if schools are fortified the shooter change location or method of attack were children congregate.

That's an interesting point.

We have so much security at airports, malls, banks and concerts that schools my be one of the few densely populated but very safe (for the killer) places to do his thing.

[Mainah]

Who pays for all this? Here in Maine there are thousands of schools, maybe a handful have armed police protection. None that I’m aware of have hardened security and metal detectors.

And even if we achieve and pay for those objectives then these losers will find soft targets like daycare centers. And if you want to homeschool then good for you, it isn’t a realistic option for most- or a means to continue as a society if universally adopted.

This pathetic and troubled kid in Florida couldn’t buy a six-pack, but he could buy an AR-15. After dozens of complaints about him to local law enforcement and at least one to the FBI. Let’s start by fixing the problems with the system in place before creating new systems.

[22-rimfire]

Are you saying that Cruz shouldn't have been able to buy an AR-15 at his age?

[Mainah]

No, not given his history with law enforcement and established instability. Could he have legally purchased a handgun at that age?

[spacemanspiff]

I wonder if treating kids like competent beings instead of liabilities would help give them more self-worth, in addition to more respect for firearms

That would have a chance at working in a perfect world.
But the problem goes much deeper. Kids are not being raised by parents anymore. Their electronic devices, tv, movies, have more influence than any single human.

And what would a school do when they encounter students with mental health deficiencies? Exclude them from this training about firearms? That stigmatizes them, and is against most school policies. Gotta make sure everyone is included! Participation awards for EVERYONE.

I dont think the problem is about guns or even desensitization to violence. I think its an overexposure to the outside world. Take away social media, smart phones, electronics from these kids. Let them find out what its like to create their own entertainment.

[22-rimfire]

Originally Posted by Mainah

No, not given his history with law enforcement and established instability. Could he have legally purchased a handgun at that age?

I suspect at least a third of all adults would be barred from owning firearms if "mental instability" was a factor, Feeling a little depressed..... not eating right?.... must be depressed and your local doctor prescribes medication... It is a slippery slope and any restrictions relative to mental illness will have to be very carefully evaluated and worded.

Not a FL resident, but I believe Cruz could have purchased a handgun from another individual versus FFL dealer. He would have had no problem keeping it off the books if he cared about that.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by SonOfScubaDiver

Aguila, I wasn't talking about pushing a button on the handle to lock the door. I was talking about a button that would be pushed from the office that would tell all the doors to close and lock. Something like a magnetic system that would hold the doors open and then release them to close and lock them once that button was pushed.

They've had such systems for close to twenty years. I've been out of the game for more than ten years, but my guess would be that all or most NEW schools are built with such systems. The fly in the ointment is that the majority of schools in this country aren't schools that were built in the last ten to fifteen years, they're a lot older. And it costs big money to retrofit an old building with a fancy electronic, remote control locking system like that. The school districts that are probably the most in need of such systems are also those that are probably the least likely to be able to pay for them.

But a lot can be done by simply eliminating stupidity -- or outflanking it. A couple of "war" stories may illustrate my point:

1. Sandy Hook. That school had a new security system that had just gone on-line shortly before the shooting. Basically, the doors were locked during the school day, and visitors had to press a button and be buzzed in by someone in the main office. Good. Except -- the doors were glass, and beside the doors were floor-to-ceiling height glass sidelights. The shooter arrived, didn't get buzzed in, so he did what any self-respecting shooter would do and blew out the glass so he could walk in.

2. Neighboring town to me: Right after sandy Hook, the town next to mine announced that they were installing a new security system in their grammar school. I was curious, and I knew the building official, so I asked what the new system was. Scout's honor - it was exactly the same as the system that had failed at Sandy Hook. And the school in question also had glass doors and sidelights.

3. The parochial high school my daughter attended for awhile had opaque (solid) entrance doors with no glass in the doors and no sidelights. Cool -- no way to shoot your way in, you'd need explosives. Doors were locked during the school day. One door had a doorbell that visitors could ring to be admitted. Remember I said the doors were opaque? That means whoever was inside couldn't see who was ringing the doorbell. The buzzer was in the main office, which was some distance remote from the entrance doors and didn't have direct line of sight. When the doorbell rang, whoever in the office was nearest to the buzzer just pressed it and released the door -- no way to identify who was out there, and no attempts made to do so.

4. The public high school in my town did a renovation and addition project about a decade ago. I did the plan review for the final construction documents on behalf of the town. Not a code violation, but I commented that since they (the building committee) had expressed a specific desire to institute measures to protect against a Columbine-like incident, they had done some dumb things. Such as (a) the entrance doors were all glass and had huge glass sidelights. (Just like Sandy Hook, but this was a few years before the Sandy Hook shooting.) (b) In the new wings, the classrooms had glass sidelights. When I pointed out how vulnerable these were to attack, the architect's response was, "But we like them." So they built the school with the glass sidelights. (c) They installed the new "Classroom Security Function" locks on the new classroom doors -- but they left the old classroom doors with the old Classroom Function locks that require the teacher to step into the corridor to lock the door. Bad enough -- but then I asked if they had any "floating" teachers -- such as an art, music, or specialty instructor who didn't have a dedicated classroom but instead "floated" from classroom to classroom. Yes, they did. I asked if the "floaters" were given the key to each classroom in which they taught. Answr: "Um, er, ah, ____." Okay, what about substitute teachers -- do they get the key to whatever classroom they'll be assigned to? No, the custodial staff opens the door in the morning, and the teacher teaches. I asked what the substitute is supposed to do if there's a call for a lockdown. Answer: "Um, er, ah, ___."

So one thing that I believe should be done is what the U.S. government already does with secure installations: Hire professional mercenaries to figure out how to beat the security system. How did the Florida shooter get into a supposedly secure building? He WALKED IN. He knew that they unlocked the gates twenty minutes before dismisal, so he waited until twenty minutes before dismissal and then waltzed right in, unchallenged and unopposed.

The Florida school was a multi-building campus with a student population of over 3,000. That's larger than many towns in my state. The school had ONE school resource officer (who may or may not have even been on the campus that day, but that's a separate question). Based on national ratios of police-to-population, the school probably should have had four or five SROs. But the school didn't want to pay for five full-time cops, and the Sheriff's office doesn't have the staff or the budget to assign five deputies to one school if the school board doesn't pay for it, so they got one -- or maybe none that day.

Aside from the necessary but difficult discussion about mental health, if we want to make our schools safer (note that I said "safer," not "safe"), we need to demand that the people in charge of them THINK about their security. The plan needs to be multi-level, multi-pronged ... and then it needs to be submitted to objective outsiders like me, whose job will be to ask the embarrassing questions like, "Do the substitutes have the key to the door?"

:doh:

Somebody needs to do more than just specify the latest hardware gadgets and think the job is done. That's barely even a start. What's important is how the system actually responds in the event of a bomb threat ... an actual explosion ... an active shooter ... multiple active shooters ... or [___]. Murphy's law is always in effect. You have all the newest bells and whistles -- now, what can possibly go wrong with your fancy new system? Good ... now, what else?

[johnwilliamson062]

I can't blame the FBI for 'dropping the ball.' They likely receive multiple tips a day about possible school shooters. They can't just dispatch a SWAT team every time they get such a call. For this one clear case they should have done more there are probably a thousand or more cases that never materialized into a threat and a good number where they did involve themselves. Besides, with their current very borderline entrapment investigations with terrorists, I would hate to see them apply similar tactics to possible school shooters.

A lot of them should probably be locked up before they commit the crime but in this country we don't have sanitarium's any more! We somehow violate crazy people's right using them!

To a large extent I agree, but...
For every insane school shooter there are hundreds of people with psychiatric issues that will never commit a similar act. As much as I hate to say it, I'd be willing to bet the numbers are no worse than guns v. guns used in crimes.

I would resist the notion that people aren't considered valuable unless we fully socialize the costs of parenting.

We socialize risk to savings account from robberies by socializing their financial insurance(FDIC). Hardly anyone complains about that. I have never heard of a person closing their bank accounts to protest FDIC.
You say people, but I specified children for a reason. I don't expect a 12 year old to pay for their own insurance with babysitting and a paper route. There comes a point at which people need to take responsibility for themselves and work three jobs to pay the bills if necessary, but it isn't 12 IMO.
All of the above mentioned ideas are old. They have all been thrown around for a decade or more. They are expensive. These events are not common. No one is going to spend the money, especially with how many school districts are fighting leaky roofs, 50 students in a classroom, and embarrassingly outdated technological infrastructure. It would be a waste of money, especially considering how much of the system is basically subsidized warehousing/babysitting more than education.

[manta49]

ID cards that can be scanned may need to be issued to school students to pass through some sort of screening prior to entering the building. So, some physical modifications to most schools will have to happen. The key is to not allow the shooter inside the building. Stop them in the parking lot and be pretty ruthless in the enforcement.

Then he will wait to school closing and wait outside the school.

[RC20]

And it goes on

Somebody needs to do more than just specify the latest hardware gadgets and think the job is done. That's barely even a start. What's important is how the system actually responds in the event of a bomb threat ... an actual explosion ... an active shooter ... multiple active shooters ... or [___]. Murphy's law is always in effect. You have all the newest bells and whistles -- now, what can possibly go wrong with your fancy new system? Good ... now, what else?

Its a society problem not a technological one.

We fortress the school and we have a fire (more likely) and we burn how many kids to death because they can't get out?

Yep, Arm the Teachers! How many teachers want to be armed?

Well lets force them to carry guns! Cops kill innocents all the time, how well does a teacher do who even wants to carry a gun? And those who want to carry should?

Don't get me wrong, police have a tough job, but they are trained and they still do some really stupid things because they are not suited to their job. Nothing weeds out the ones who pass the tests but should not be.

Armed teachers are going to be better?

Gun owners are a minority in the country. A bit one.

At some point the majority can change the constipation (its been amended a lot of times)

Maybe time to agree to see if there are solutions that work.

18 year old kid can't drink, but can buy an AR with no community background check.

18 year old has to have a license to drive a car because after all, its not the cars fault that it wiped out 4 lives or 6 or ?

Tools can be used rightly or wrongly. The decider is the user.

[RC20]

About 33% of the population owns a gun.

I would guess teachers are far lower on that ownership scale. They tend to be liberals because they believe in what they do, not after the big bucks.

So, maybe 5% of teachers are gun owners and how many want to carry a gun in the classroom.

Maybe POTUS should ask the teachers and not tell them?

No research, not data, not backing that it would do anything but there it is.

[RC20]

ID cards that can be scanned may need to be issued to school students to pass through some sort of screening prior to entering the building. So, some physical modifications to most schools will have to happen. The key is to not allow the shooter inside the building. Stop them in the parking lot and be pretty ruthless in the enforcement.

Scope out the school, ID a kid that walks to it alone, take his ID card and away we go.

[Lohman446]

So, maybe 5% of teachers are gun owners and how many want to carry a gun in the classroom

How big of a percentage do you need. I graduated HS in 95 so the numbers may not bear out. I had experience with something like 30? high school teachers.

I know, for a fact, three of them were fully capable of being armed and handling any threat that would have entered their classroom as skillfully as anyone. Oddly enough two of their classrooms were right across from one another. I can think of four or give more that probably would have taken the responsibility and, if they did not have the skill, developed the skill to handle the situation. Add in a couple members of the support staff who I know would have been able to respond and you have a pretty good "standing guard" for a school that had less than 800 students.

I don't need all teachers to be armed. In fact there are some teachers who simply are not willing to use force, some that should not have access to a firearm because they might start the shooting, and others that would not have the time and mindset to prepare. Still it would not hurt to have those willing to put in the time and effort to be prepared be allowed to be equipped.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by RC20

About 33% of the population owns a gun.

I think you mean that about a third admit to having one even when asked by a complete stranger who hasn't any business asking.

Originally Posted by RC20

We fortress the school and we have a fire (more likely) and we burn how many kids to death because they can't get out?

Indeed. Pursuing a single goal to the exclusion of all others isn't reasonable, but it can happen when people lack perspective.

Originally Posted by RC20

Yep, Arm the Teachers! How many teachers want to be armed?

Well lets force them to carry guns! Cops kill innocents all the time, how well does a teacher do who even wants to carry a gun? And those who want to carry should?

Don't get me wrong, police have a tough job, but they are trained and they still do some really stupid things because they are not suited to their job. Nothing weeds out the ones who pass the tests but should not be.

Armed teachers are going to be better?

Is forcing teachers to be armed a real suggestion?

Police do some stupid things...and some brilliant things, and some merely helpful things. So long as we aren't asking teachers to perform traffic stops or set drug buying stings, the stresses and ambiguities of police work seem less than completely relevant.

Originally Posted by RC20

Maybe time to agree to see if there are solutions that work.

Don't we mostly have one that works already? If we already prohibit felons, domestic violence misdemeanor violators, the involuntarily committed and illicit drug users from possessing arms, how many more people belong on a prohibition list?

Bartholomew Roberts has noted that having the NICS check tied to a specific arm or arms is antiquated or irrelevant to safety. Many have noted that making a school a gun free zone invites the problem. What looming but unsolved problem remains?

Originally Posted by RC20

18 year old kid can't drink, but can buy an AR with no community background check.

What is a "community background check"?

[rickyrick]

There was a deputy present and never went in. Assigned as a school resource officer.
The article never mentioned if he was armed or not. So, security was no help.

https://www.wptv.com/news/national/d...ent-in-resigns

[jimsouth]

The worst school attack in American history, did not involve firearms. The BATH BOMBING. Evil always finds a way. Jim

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I was in the Electronic Alarm/Security Surveillance field for decades. What most do not know is that there are dedicated High Tech security systems designed specifically for High Schools and Colleges. More than just card entry which is dated.
Not only modern Turnstiles, and facial recognition, finger print etc., but the ability for one Security staff member to lock down any door on Campus with a simple Smart phone.
The bottom line? That kid should have never entered that school period. And It was totally preventable. The School systems do not want you to know that technology exist.
And they should be held accountable.
The security of modern day schools is a total JOKE. And they know this. Much easier to blame a AR as they say.
Make the gun the bad demon. Plant it as the fear, make it the evil.
And of course the real evil is the fact that the Gun, is really just a wedge issue. It is from all the media and Propaganda to focus on the gun as the Party of evil.
The Liberals will use "Fear" as a tool to get voters. It really is not about the gun at all. and there is a sucker born every day. CNN will make millions off of this shooting. They will exploit the murder's over and over. The Fake news is a curse to American.

[rickyrick]

Sad thing is, the staff bathroom is probably more secure than the front door.

[Rachen]

There is absolutely no problem with having armed police officers in the schools. Not only would they end the careers of potential mass-murderers very, very quickly, the mere presence of police officers or a police substation inside a school will deter many regular crimes that seem to plague a lot of schools across the country. Things like drug activity, violent gangs and street crime have been occurring in schools now too, and the presence of police in schools will certainly give potential troublemakers a new reason to be concerned.

Also we can improve the safety of students themselves by offering martial arts courses for physical education programs. Sure, in the 1970s, football and baseball are the main courses to be taught in PE but realistically, not everyone are into these sports or will choose them as a career. Why not offer something that will empower students and also teach them self discipline and responsibility while also giving them valuable tools to defend themselves in case the worst happens? Not everyone can be trained like a first responder or a leader in a life or death situation, but offering such programs in school can and will create a group of people who may be able to remain calm and level-headed should a crisis occur and make essential decisions for the safety of all those around them.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The point about fortification is well taken. You can go around fortification. Look at the Maginot line.

At the schools near me, at dismissal times you have dozens of little kids lining up for the school buses on a city street.

We have day cares full of dozens of pre-schoolers. You have concerts, supermarkets, etc.

There is no good solution - you need people on the spot to respond.

However, better reporting might stop of these monsters. True, they might go to illegal sales but you don't know how many might give up. It's knowable.

[hemiram]

We were talking about this at work over the last couple of days. We older people remember when there were mental hospitals, and we agreed that some people need to be in that kind of facility. Not locked up in a prison type place, the local one was like a village. The patients had jobs if they could do one, there was a store, and they were made to take their meds. If they walked away, the police took them back.
Now a lot of these patients wind up in prison after going off their meds, and others, like a friend's daughter, get involved with law enforcement every so often after going off her meds because she feels "dead inside".

Thinking back to when I was in school in the '60's and '70's, there are only a few teachers who I thought were stable enough that I would have wanted to arm them. The younger people feel the same way about the teachers from just 5-7 years ago, so I'm assuming that it's across the board. I can think of 2 of my grade school teachers I would be okay with arming, and another 3 in high school. Of the 3 armed (They concealed, badly) security officers we had in my high school, there was only one I thought was sane enough to carry. The other two were overly aggressive bullies, both ex HS and college football "heroes" that were hated by many of us kids. There was another male teacher I thought was ok, and a couple of female teachers. This was about 10% of all the teachers I knew.

I think the solution to reducing these incidents is to put a cop into every school. Yes, it's expensive, and it won't be a sure thing, but it would probably reduce the chances of it happening, just by his being there. A couple, just a couple, of armed teachers would be a help, as the police officer would be a logical "first target" for a shooter to take out. No matter what is done, there is no way to totally prevent this kind of thing from happening. If someone decides to go on a one way "mission", it's going to be very difficult to stop them with a law or reasonable security procedures. But myself, maybe because I have no kids in school, I don't feel the odds of it happening are sufficient to warrant spending a ton of money on security. Schools are in general, very safe. Get rid of glass doors and large windows that can be shot out and passed through, put cameras at the right places, and use common sense, something that appears to be in short supply anymore.

[lockedcj7]

Some comments about teachers really bother me. They fall into two general categories and can be summed up this way:

#1. "Teachers are soft. They are not operators and therefore cannot be trusted with a gun." I may not be SEAL material, but 'soft', I am not. I am very proficient with firearms of all types, I'm a veteran, a black-belt, and an NRA instructor. I have a warrior mindset. Just because some teachers shouldn't be armed, don't assume that we are all alike, and don't preclude me from being armed because I am 'just a teacher'.

#2. "Teachers have enough to worry about, they shouldn't have to worry about being sheepdogs, they just need to teach." That's great. Except that we are already expected to protect the children entrusted to us. We make sure everyone is out of the building during a fire drill, we are mandatory reporters of suspected neglect or abuse, and it's why we HAVE TO break up fights. If things go sideways, I have to shift gears and give my students what they need in that moment. On 9-11, I had to become a psychologist, grief counselor, and father figure. I am already expected to protect your child. Now please let me have the option of having a weapon to do it with.

If we were really serious about hardening our schools, we would send a team to Israel and see how they do it.

[FAS1]

Originally Posted by RC20

About 33% of the population owns a gun.

I would guess teachers are far lower on that ownership scale. They tend to be liberals because they believe in what they do, not after the big bucks.

So, maybe 5% of teachers are gun owners and how many want to carry a gun in the classroom.

Maybe POTUS should ask the teachers and not tell them?

No research, not data, not backing that it would do anything but there it is.

Agreed, but that still equals some resistance from within the schools by the teachers that do CHOOSE to carry.

I think 5% is actually a real close number, and probably on the conservative side in a state like Florida. So if you take the number of students at this school (3000) and say there are 30 students per teacher that is 100 teachers. Probably 25 admin.

That would be 6 armed adult CHL holders all around the campus. Better odds to me than 4 officers taking up positions behind there cars when all the shooting is almost over.

[Danoobie]

Originally Posted by HughScot

If someone doesn't come up with a real solution to protecting children while at school people will pass legislation that we won't like.

Let's deputize all the Washington alphabet soup agencies, and place them in our
schools as U.S.Marshals, guarding our children. Re-purposing THEM would be a lot
cheaper than getting new people. Many of these agencies have been in operation
for decades, with NOTHING to show for it. NOW they can man up, step up, and do
something worthwhile, for a change. BUH-BYE, FBI, NSA, TSA, EPA, IRS, etc, ad nauseam...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Before you get preachy about teachers, look at how many folks have CCW credentials of some kind. The percentage is low. Look at how many of them actually carry religiously, the percentage is low. Look at how many have any significant training - the percentage is very low.

So let's drop the gratuitous insults about a class of folks who want to work with kids. We don't give a crap here if they are liberal or conservative. We don't do that.

Also, no one is suggesting arming all teachers. Don't blather about that.

I will delete any more holier than though rants.