Perforated primer.

Yosemite Steve · January 19, 2018, 08:56 PM

Today, while firing some older work ups for another gun, I had a primer perforation. The load was light at around 2300 fps. It was a CCI200 with 45 grains of IMR 4064 through an Winchester made Enfield 1917. Any ideas?

**4V50 Gary** · January 19, 2018, 09:35 PM

Find out if the protrusion of the firing pin is within spec?

Soft primers? Does it do it with factory 30-06?

tangolima · January 19, 2018, 09:55 PM

Excessive headspace.

Excessive firing pin protrusion.

Pointed firing pin tip.

Pistol prime in rifle cartridge.
...

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Yosemite Steve · January 19, 2018, 10:14 PM

Tangolima, all good possibilities. First time it's happened with this gun. I do know that my RCBS sizing die goes a touch too far. Also the rounds I was shooting were a batch that were the first I ever made a long time ago. Also the gun has not had it's bolt taken apart for who knows how long. I think that in the near future I will be replacing the main spring and when I do I will go through it all and freshen things up.

One primer in 300 rounds since I have had it.

T. O'Heir · January 20, 2018, 02:11 PM

"...54 grains of IMR 4064..." That is not a light load. It's 3 full grains over max for any typical jacketed .30-06 bullet weight. Absolutely nowhere near 2300 FPS. 54.5 of IMR4064 is the MAX load for a 130 grain bullet running 3,243 FPS.
Max for a 150 is 51.0 of IMR4064.

Yosemite Steve · January 20, 2018, 03:02 PM

Quote:

"...54 grains of IMR 4064..." That is not a light load. It's 3 full grains over max for any typical jacketed .30-06 bullet weight. Absolutely nowhere near 2300 FPS. 54.5 of IMR4064 is the MAX load for a 130 grain bullet running 3,243 FPS.
Max for a 150 is 51.0 of IMR4064.

Good grief! The number was 45! Why we triple check. O'Heir, thank you for pointing that out. I went back and checked the label on the box and my data sheet and they both said 45 grains. This reminds me of one day when I was headed out the door to go shoot and realized I had loaded my ammo with 4350 data using 4064. Something in my guts told me to take another look and I'm glad I did.

tangolima · January 20, 2018, 04:16 PM

So was it 45gr or 54gr in the load you fired? No way you couldn't tell the difference when you fire a over max load while expecting a light load.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Ok. I saw your edited op. 45gr it was.

Remington74 · January 20, 2018, 04:18 PM

If there is any of that ammo left you might want to pull a couple and check that it is actually 45 grains in there.

Yosemite Steve · January 20, 2018, 05:13 PM

It's shot up. My mistake was in in the first post of this thread. The loads had all been fired through my Savage. The thing that haunts me is the idea of a primer mix up. I have many thousands of primers from when my dad reloaded. What if some of the wrong ones got put in different boxes when cleaning up etc.? I know that if I see a primer and it isn't in the primer tray it always gets tossed. I have CCI 200, 250, 300 and 350 and they all look alike. Bad news if there is a mix up.

T. O'Heir · January 21, 2018, 02:01 PM

45 grains isn't much better. It's 2 grains below current minimum of 47.0. Probably not an issue though. Differences in manuals will account for that. And it's way better than 3 full grains over max.
"...and they all look alike..." That's why you always have just one flavour of primer on the bench at a time. And leave the rest in their boxes. Mind you, mixing 'em isn't an explosion waiting to happen. Mixing magnum and regular might increase pressures, but not enough to worry about.

Yosemite Steve · January 21, 2018, 05:48 PM

Yes. I am very careful about only having one powder and one primer out. The thing is, all of my magnum primers are about thirty years old and I used to get into them when I was a kid to go hit them with a hammer. They have been working fine and it has only happened once in this rifle. I had one do it in my Savage a while back.

Back to the 45 grains, my old Sierra manual listed 42.9 as a starting load for 165 grain 30-06 and 42.8 as a starting load for 180 grain. At the time it was my only manual. It is a 1971 copyright. Funny thing is that for as conservative as it is for the 30-06 it gives the highest maximums for the 44 magnum of any manual I've found. My old Hodgdon manual was the most accurate as far as velocities for the H450 in the 30-06... at 38F. I will not be trying the 59.0 grain loads when it's 80F outside unless I work up to it. I will say that it isn't any fun to shoot at that load! I have a bruise on my shoulder to prove it.

F. Guffey · January 24, 2018, 12:15 PM

Any ideas? Yes, As I have said before; there is a lot that happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel that reloaders do not understand. SO: We will talk about my primers and my firing pins and my M1917s, When a hole appears in the primer I always suspect the firing pin spring. The spring has to be strong enough to overcome the pressure inside of the case/primer. When the pressure pushed the firing back and then? A hole appears if the spring is not strong enough to overcome the pressure. I want enough pressure in the case/primer to get the primer to conform to the shape of the firing pin but I do not want the pressure to reverse the dent in the primer.

F. Guffey

Yosemite Steve · January 24, 2018, 01:55 PM

The hole in the primer was not reversed. It appears that the firing pin went too deep. I don't know what the weak spring primer hole looks like. There is a good chance it may have been a magnum pistol primer as i was using magnum rifle primers with my h450 and they have been around for a long time. It is the only time it's happened with this rifle. I had two bullets do this a while back with my savage while shooting the same powder with mag primers. That being said the spring in my Enfield has to be at least 45 years old. My dad never had it replaced since he owned it.

F. Guffey · January 24, 2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

The hole in the primer was not reversed

I was talking about 'MY' rifle. The pressure in my case causes the primer to conform to the firing pin meaning the dent is reduced but if the spring is not strong enough the firing pin is pushed back. There are time the dent is small, that does not mean the primer was so sensitive the primer was busted with a little tap by the firing pin.

MY M1917s have killer firing pins, my firing pins crush the primers before the bullet, case and powder know their little buddy, the primer, has been crushed. There is one shooter that has a firing pin that is so slow he has time for his firing pin to drive the case forward to the shoulder of the chamber and reduce the case in length (from the shoulder to the case head) .005" before the primer is busted.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · January 24, 2018, 02:27 PM

I keep saying 'time is a factor', I am beginning to think some of these sharp shooters are just lucky. But if I had to hold a rifle that long I would have to guess where the bullet was when it left the barrel.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · January 24, 2018, 06:32 PM

Quote:

The hole in the primer was not reversed.

There will be no evidence of a reverse, I do not know about all the rifles that belong to all the other reloaders but with my primers there is a simple hole, no crater on one side or a lip on the other. Again; I said there are a lot of things that happen when the trigger is pulled that reloaders are unaware of. When the pressure pushed the dent out of the primer the primer conforms to the shape of the firing pin, And now there is a question about what the hole should look like; The pressure we are talking about is hot, high pressure metal cutting gas, when the metal cutting high pressure gas hits the hole in the primer "I" am left with a smooth round hole, it is not an innie, it is not an outtie.

And then there is the 'but'; but it is possible the shooter can be left with metal cutting on the bolt face and the end of the firing pin.

F. Guffey

Yosemite Steve · January 24, 2018, 07:39 PM

This is good to know. I am going to order a new firing pin spring. I think it should be repalced anyways. Would you agree that a higher tension Wolff spring woulf be better?

January 19, 2018, 08:56 PM	#1
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	Perforated primer. Today, while firing some older work ups for another gun, I had a primer perforation. The load was light at around 2300 fps. It was a CCI200 with 45 grains of IMR 4064 through an Winchester made Enfield 1917. Any ideas? Last edited by Yosemite Steve; January 20, 2018 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Error on my Powder charge!

January 19, 2018, 09:35 PM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	Find out if the protrusion of the firing pin is within spec? Soft primers? Does it do it with factory 30-06? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 20, 2018, 02:11 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...54 grains of IMR 4064..." That is not a light load. It's 3 full grains over max for any typical jacketed .30-06 bullet weight. Absolutely nowhere near 2300 FPS. 54.5 of IMR4064 is the MAX load for a 130 grain bullet running 3,243 FPS. Max for a 150 is 51.0 of IMR4064. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 21, 2018, 02:01 PM	#10
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	45 grains isn't much better. It's 2 grains below current minimum of 47.0. Probably not an issue though. Differences in manuals will account for that. And it's way better than 3 full grains over max. "...and they all look alike..." That's why you always have just one flavour of primer on the bench at a time. And leave the rest in their boxes. Mind you, mixing 'em isn't an explosion waiting to happen. Mixing magnum and regular might increase pressures, but not enough to worry about. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 24, 2018, 12:15 PM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Punched primers: Any ideas? Yes, As I have said before; there is a lot that happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel that reloaders do not understand. SO: We will talk about my primers and my firing pins and my M1917s, When a hole appears in the primer I always suspect the firing pin spring. The spring has to be strong enough to overcome the pressure inside of the case/primer. When the pressure pushed the firing back and then? A hole appears if the spring is not strong enough to overcome the pressure. I want enough pressure in the case/primer to get the primer to conform to the shape of the firing pin but I do not want the pressure to reverse the dent in the primer. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; January 24, 2018 at 12:26 PM. Reason: forgive, my wife has a cat that wants to help.

January 19, 2018, 09:55 PM	#3
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,814	Excessive headspace. Excessive firing pin protrusion. Pointed firing pin tip. Pistol prime in rifle cartridge. ... -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

January 19, 2018, 10:14 PM	#4
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	Tangolima, all good possibilities. First time it's happened with this gun. I do know that my RCBS sizing die goes a touch too far. Also the rounds I was shooting were a batch that were the first I ever made a long time ago. Also the gun has not had it's bolt taken apart for who knows how long. I think that in the near future I will be replacing the main spring and when I do I will go through it all and freshen things up. One primer in 300 rounds since I have had it.

January 20, 2018, 04:16 PM	#7
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,814	So was it 45gr or 54gr in the load you fired? No way you couldn't tell the difference when you fire a over max load while expecting a light load. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk Ok. I saw your edited op. 45gr it was.

January 20, 2018, 04:18 PM	#8
Remington74 Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2012 Location: Carthage, NY Posts: 231	If there is any of that ammo left you might want to pull a couple and check that it is actually 45 grains in there.

January 20, 2018, 05:13 PM	#9
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	It's shot up. My mistake was in in the first post of this thread. The loads had all been fired through my Savage. The thing that haunts me is the idea of a primer mix up. I have many thousands of primers from when my dad reloaded. What if some of the wrong ones got put in different boxes when cleaning up etc.? I know that if I see a primer and it isn't in the primer tray it always gets tossed. I have CCI 200, 250, 300 and 350 and they all look alike. Bad news if there is a mix up.

January 21, 2018, 05:48 PM	#11
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	Yes. I am very careful about only having one powder and one primer out. The thing is, all of my magnum primers are about thirty years old and I used to get into them when I was a kid to go hit them with a hammer. They have been working fine and it has only happened once in this rifle. I had one do it in my Savage a while back. Back to the 45 grains, my old Sierra manual listed 42.9 as a starting load for 165 grain 30-06 and 42.8 as a starting load for 180 grain. At the time it was my only manual. It is a 1971 copyright. Funny thing is that for as conservative as it is for the 30-06 it gives the highest maximums for the 44 magnum of any manual I've found. My old Hodgdon manual was the most accurate as far as velocities for the H450 in the 30-06... at 38F. I will not be trying the 59.0 grain loads when it's 80F outside unless I work up to it. I will say that it isn't any fun to shoot at that load! I have a bruise on my shoulder to prove it.

January 24, 2018, 01:55 PM	#13
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	The hole in the primer was not reversed. It appears that the firing pin went too deep. I don't know what the weak spring primer hole looks like. There is a good chance it may have been a magnum pistol primer as i was using magnum rifle primers with my h450 and they have been around for a long time. It is the only time it's happened with this rifle. I had two bullets do this a while back with my savage while shooting the same powder with mag primers. That being said the spring in my Enfield has to be at least 45 years old. My dad never had it replaced since he owned it.

January 24, 2018, 02:27 PM	#15
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I keep saying 'time is a factor', I am beginning to think some of these sharp shooters are just lucky. But if I had to hold a rifle that long I would have to guess where the bullet was when it left the barrel. F. Guffey

January 24, 2018, 07:39 PM	#17
Yosemite Steve Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2017 Posts: 460	This is good to know. I am going to order a new firing pin spring. I think it should be repalced anyways. Would you agree that a higher tension Wolff spring woulf be better?