Are AR handguards getting too long?

BluRidgDav · January 27, 2017, 01:58 PM

As originally designed by Eugene Stoner, the AR platform had a set of plastic handguards that were supported in both the front, by the front sight base, and in the back, by the barrel nut. On the carbines, the handguards were only about 7" long.

Then, along came the "free float barrel" and "tactical accessories" trends, and eventually the front sight bases disappeared under the early aluminum quad-rails. Because quad-rails were so heavy, few of them were more that a foot long.

Now, most handguards have shaved off the 3,6 & 9 o'clock full-length rails, and become more tubular in cross-section, with small rail-pieces available to snap into m-loc or key-loc slots. But, many of them have grown so long that they reach all the way to the end of the barrel.

While the long top-rails provide an increased sight radius, for those that still use iron sights, instead of optics. Are we putting too much torque on that poor barrel nut, with accessories & sling attachment points now located 15+ inches away?

Do some handguard manufacturers do a better job than others, beefing up support around the barrel nut, to where it's less of a potential problem?

Or is there no problem anyway, and I'm just over-thinking this?

Thanx, Dave.

9x19 · January 27, 2017, 02:53 PM

Lots of folks tend to follow the shooting sports fashions (in both pistols and rifles).

The long hand-guard is a 3-gun type comp fashion, based on the hold that's popular in those sports.

I don't shoot 3 gun, and I'm too old to change

so I still use a more conventional hold or (horrors) a vertical fore grip, so I still like the shorter hand-guards.

bfoosh006 · January 27, 2017, 03:12 PM

No offense... but yes I believe you are over thinking this.

Most quality handguards are pretty dang strong.

Eugene Stoner's carbine was meant to be a LtWt AR...but he didn't have the ability to use any of the current machining and materials that we do.

He also designed the carbine to be used F/A as well.

IMHO, free float tubes are great... offering much better versatility over Stock handguards.

And ultimately, the main design feature is Free Floating... think about the DCM free float tube you can install under a standard handguard... its main function is so you can sling up firmly.

O4L · January 27, 2017, 03:46 PM

I will probably put a 15" handgaurd on my next build. I am 6'6" and have long arms so I would like more room to stretch out a bit instead of being all bunched up.

I don't hang accessories or slings on my handgaurds so I'm not too worried about them flexing.

I also like the look of the longer handgaurd on a rifle without the front sight post.

6MT · January 27, 2017, 04:15 PM

Mine is 14" or 15" long. It does flex, but it is also more than .050" from contacting the gas block. So I'm not worried. I prefer the longer hand guard for 3 gun competition. And I don't mount anything except for the "ergo" fore grip as you can see in the pictures.

As someone mentioned earlier, you are over thinking this a bit.

peggysue · January 27, 2017, 05:09 PM

I believe you are over thinking this.

fourbore · January 27, 2017, 07:10 PM

I missed the whole point here - deleted. Senior moment.

stagpanther · January 27, 2017, 08:32 PM

I don't really care all that much either way--from my point of view a longer rail gives better balancing for a tripod/bag rest

Double Naught Spy · January 27, 2017, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Now, most handguards have shaved off the 3,6 & 9 o'clock full-length rails, and become more tubular in cross-section, with small rail-pieces available to snap into m-loc or key-loc slots. But, many of them have grown so long that they reach all the way to the end of the barrel.

So there have been significant improvements in capability and adaptability. What is wrong with that?

Quote:

Are we putting too much torque on that poor barrel nut, with accessories & sling attachment points now located 15+ inches away?

Just because you have a 15" rail doesn't mean you have to put the sling attachment at the end of it.

Quote:

Or is there no problem anyway, and I'm just over-thinking this?

Let's see. You haven't identified any actual problems and are just hypothesizing them as justification for asking if handguards have gotten too long. I would have to say that you are way overthinking this.

The bottom line is that if you don't want to use a long handguard, don't. It isn't as if handguards have grown longer at the expense of doing away with shorter handguards.

reynolds357 · January 27, 2017, 11:35 PM

I guess as long as you do not shoot your finger off or burn your hand, it is not too long.

lordmorgul · January 27, 2017, 11:56 PM

Aero Precision M4E1 and M5E1 uppers do not have a barrel nut attach for the hand guard, instead mounting the hand guard directly to the upper. This works really well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Theohazard · January 28, 2017, 01:55 PM

The OP has a point here. Most free-float rails aren't truly free-floated since they attach to the barrel nut. They still give a noticeable improvement in consistent accuracy over traditional handguards since you're not putting pressure on the forward part of the barrel, but you can still put pressure on the barrel through the barrel nut. The longer the free-float rail, the more leverage you get, so you can potentially put even more pressure on the barrel nut with a longer free-float rail.

The question is, does this make a noticeable difference in repeatable accuracy? Some companies think it does, as manufacturers like LWRC, Aero Precision, and Daniel Defense have engineered proprietary upper receivers that attach directly to the free-float handguard and completely bypass the barrel nut. I haven't experimented with this myself, but it makes sense.

rickyrick · January 28, 2017, 03:19 PM

All I know is that handguards and free float tubes are the nemesis of AR assembly. Often times it's the item that gets the most energy when shopping for them. Most are expensive and require proprietary hardware; sometimes proprietary tools. They can be the most expensive part of the build.

In the post-election era, I'm seeing combo sales with Anderson parts and expensive furniture.

It seems that ARs with shorter guards and longer barrels do look odd.

Chainsaw. · January 28, 2017, 04:43 PM

Im "only" 6'2.5" and I appreciate the heck out of the longer forends. Shooting a stock handguard gun is like driving a 73 civic. I can do it, but more room is greatly appreciated.

BluRidgDav · January 28, 2017, 05:08 PM

Thanx Hazard,

I've owned almost exclusively Colt AR's, since they started the whole AR business, and build to mil-spec for the most part. But, I've also watched what some of the other smaller manufacturers were doing to "improve the breed". At about the same time that many handguards reached the end of the barrel, I saw Aero Precision introduce their M4E1 upper receivers, and then Daniel Defense came out with their DD5. (Sorry, I missed LWRC's developments.) So, it started me thinking; maybe some companies, that are less traditional than Colt, are already evolving the barrel nut interface, to better handle these full-length handguards???

Plus, there are all those "monolithic" uppers out there . . . . .

Jim Watson · January 28, 2017, 05:20 PM

I want a handguard that goes clear out in front of the muzzle with no openings except right at the breech end. Ever see a Lewis gun?

dakota.potts · January 28, 2017, 05:36 PM

Jim, maybe something like this? http://gearsofguns.com/wp-content/up...16/07/MP18.jpg

RoughDivider · January 28, 2017, 05:41 PM

My 10.3" barrel has a 10" handguard on it. I like it.

Model12Win · January 28, 2017, 09:00 PM

No.

Today's modern operator needs more rail space and tactical accessories now than ever if they hope to operate in a dynamic warfighter battlespace.

Mobuck · January 28, 2017, 09:07 PM

I don't shoot with "tight sling" support so I'm not much into the primary need for a freefloat HG. I do have 3 or 4 AR's with free floats but mostly because that's just what parts were handy.

Jim Watson · January 28, 2017, 09:47 PM

No, Dakota, the Lewis gun barrel shroud is open only at the rear.
Muzzle blast draws fresh air over cooling fins.
http://modernfirearms.net/machine/usa/lewis-e.html

dakota.potts · January 28, 2017, 11:29 PM

I know want to fabricate a Lewis-style shroud for an AR

stagpanther · January 29, 2017, 12:19 AM

I'm currently researching large fancy rails with a good cut-out grate pattern that allow me to attach meats--cooking my lunch or dinner while I'm burning through multiple mags.

Fishbed77 · January 31, 2017, 01:28 PM

Quote:

No.

Today's modern operator needs more rail space and tactical accessories now than ever if they hope to operate in a dynamic warfighter battlespace.

That quote was all tactical as hell.

Of course, the same all applies to the mall ninjas that buy these products as well.

Personally, though, I really appreciate the 13" KMR rail on my BCM.

turtlehead · January 31, 2017, 11:18 PM

The correct length for a 16" barrel is 12-12.5". All other lengths are incorrect.

January 27, 2017, 01:58 PM	#1
BluRidgDav Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 314	Are AR handguards getting too long? As originally designed by Eugene Stoner, the AR platform had a set of plastic handguards that were supported in both the front, by the front sight base, and in the back, by the barrel nut. On the carbines, the handguards were only about 7" long. Then, along came the "free float barrel" and "tactical accessories" trends, and eventually the front sight bases disappeared under the early aluminum quad-rails. Because quad-rails were so heavy, few of them were more that a foot long. Now, most handguards have shaved off the 3,6 & 9 o'clock full-length rails, and become more tubular in cross-section, with small rail-pieces available to snap into m-loc or key-loc slots. But, many of them have grown so long that they reach all the way to the end of the barrel. While the long top-rails provide an increased sight radius, for those that still use iron sights, instead of optics. Are we putting too much torque on that poor barrel nut, with accessories & sling attachment points now located 15+ inches away? Do some handguard manufacturers do a better job than others, beefing up support around the barrel nut, to where it's less of a potential problem? Or is there no problem anyway, and I'm just over-thinking this? Thanx, Dave. __________________ Watch your top-knot.

January 27, 2017, 02:53 PM	#2
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	Lots of folks tend to follow the shooting sports fashions (in both pistols and rifles). The long hand-guard is a 3-gun type comp fashion, based on the hold that's popular in those sports. I don't shoot 3 gun, and I'm too old to change so I still use a more conventional hold or (horrors) a vertical fore grip, so I still like the shorter hand-guards. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

January 27, 2017, 07:10 PM	#7
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	I missed the whole point here - deleted. Senior moment. Last edited by fourbore; January 27, 2017 at 09:14 PM.

January 27, 2017, 08:32 PM	#8
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	I don't really care all that much either way--from my point of view a longer rail gives better balancing for a tripod/bag rest __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

January 27, 2017, 11:56 PM	#11
lordmorgul Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2016 Posts: 206	Are AR handguards getting too long? Aero Precision M4E1 and M5E1 uppers do not have a barrel nut attach for the hand guard, instead mounting the hand guard directly to the upper. This works really well. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

January 27, 2017, 03:12 PM	#3
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	No offense... but yes I believe you are over thinking this. Most quality handguards are pretty dang strong. Eugene Stoner's carbine was meant to be a LtWt AR...but he didn't have the ability to use any of the current machining and materials that we do. He also designed the carbine to be used F/A as well. IMHO, free float tubes are great... offering much better versatility over Stock handguards. And ultimately, the main design feature is Free Floating... think about the DCM free float tube you can install under a standard handguard... its main function is so you can sling up firmly.

January 27, 2017, 03:46 PM	#4
O4L Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2015 Posts: 646	I will probably put a 15" handgaurd on my next build. I am 6'6" and have long arms so I would like more room to stretch out a bit instead of being all bunched up. I don't hang accessories or slings on my handgaurds so I'm not too worried about them flexing. I also like the look of the longer handgaurd on a rifle without the front sight post.

January 27, 2017, 04:15 PM	#5
6MT Member Join Date: January 19, 2017 Location: Above 53 degrees Posts: 54	Mine is 14" or 15" long. It does flex, but it is also more than .050" from contacting the gas block. So I'm not worried. I prefer the longer hand guard for 3 gun competition. And I don't mount anything except for the "ergo" fore grip as you can see in the pictures. As someone mentioned earlier, you are over thinking this a bit.

January 27, 2017, 05:09 PM	#6
peggysue Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2014 Posts: 1,835	I believe you are over thinking this.

January 27, 2017, 11:35 PM	#10
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I guess as long as you do not shoot your finger off or burn your hand, it is not too long.

January 28, 2017, 01:55 PM	#12
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	The OP has a point here. Most free-float rails aren't truly free-floated since they attach to the barrel nut. They still give a noticeable improvement in consistent accuracy over traditional handguards since you're not putting pressure on the forward part of the barrel, but you can still put pressure on the barrel through the barrel nut. The longer the free-float rail, the more leverage you get, so you can potentially put even more pressure on the barrel nut with a longer free-float rail. The question is, does this make a noticeable difference in repeatable accuracy? Some companies think it does, as manufacturers like LWRC, Aero Precision, and Daniel Defense have engineered proprietary upper receivers that attach directly to the free-float handguard and completely bypass the barrel nut. I haven't experimented with this myself, but it makes sense. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

January 28, 2017, 03:19 PM	#13
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,237	All I know is that handguards and free float tubes are the nemesis of AR assembly. Often times it's the item that gets the most energy when shopping for them. Most are expensive and require proprietary hardware; sometimes proprietary tools. They can be the most expensive part of the build. In the post-election era, I'm seeing combo sales with Anderson parts and expensive furniture. It seems that ARs with shorter guards and longer barrels do look odd.

January 28, 2017, 04:43 PM	#14
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	Im "only" 6'2.5" and I appreciate the heck out of the longer forends. Shooting a stock handguard gun is like driving a 73 civic. I can do it, but more room is greatly appreciated. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

January 28, 2017, 05:08 PM	#15
BluRidgDav Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 314	Thanx Hazard, I've owned almost exclusively Colt AR's, since they started the whole AR business, and build to mil-spec for the most part. But, I've also watched what some of the other smaller manufacturers were doing to "improve the breed". At about the same time that many handguards reached the end of the barrel, I saw Aero Precision introduce their M4E1 upper receivers, and then Daniel Defense came out with their DD5. (Sorry, I missed LWRC's developments.) So, it started me thinking; maybe some companies, that are less traditional than Colt, are already evolving the barrel nut interface, to better handle these full-length handguards??? Plus, there are all those "monolithic" uppers out there . . . . . __________________ Watch your top-knot.

January 28, 2017, 05:20 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	I want a handguard that goes clear out in front of the muzzle with no openings except right at the breech end. Ever see a Lewis gun?

January 28, 2017, 05:36 PM	#17
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	Jim, maybe something like this? http://gearsofguns.com/wp-content/up...16/07/MP18.jpg __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

January 28, 2017, 05:41 PM	#18
RoughDivider Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2014 Location: Collierville, TN Posts: 152	My 10.3" barrel has a 10" handguard on it. I like it.

January 28, 2017, 09:00 PM	#19
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	No. Today's modern operator needs more rail space and tactical accessories now than ever if they hope to operate in a dynamic warfighter battlespace.

January 28, 2017, 09:07 PM	#20
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I don't shoot with "tight sling" support so I'm not much into the primary need for a freefloat HG. I do have 3 or 4 AR's with free floats but mostly because that's just what parts were handy.

January 28, 2017, 09:47 PM	#21
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	No, Dakota, the Lewis gun barrel shroud is open only at the rear. Muzzle blast draws fresh air over cooling fins. http://modernfirearms.net/machine/usa/lewis-e.html

January 28, 2017, 11:29 PM	#22
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	I know want to fabricate a Lewis-style shroud for an AR __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

January 29, 2017, 12:19 AM	#23
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	I'm currently researching large fancy rails with a good cut-out grate pattern that allow me to attach meats--cooking my lunch or dinner while I'm burning through multiple mags. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

January 31, 2017, 11:18 PM	#25
turtlehead Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2015 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,203	The correct length for a 16" barrel is 12-12.5". All other lengths are incorrect.