January 21, 2017, 04:46 AM | #1 |
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6mm Creedmore merits
I ask this question because while looking at the specs of the 6.5mm Creedmore American rifle, I saw that Ruger is making a 6mm Creedmore too. It got me to thinking: what's the benefit, the thing it does better that .243 Winchester doesn't do? The .243 is a flat shooting cartridge as I'm sure 6mm Creed is, but the .243 has been around longer, is better established. There seems to be no point in getting into 6mm Creedmoor at all.
The 6.5mm Creedmore I see having a purpose; it fits right between .223 and .308 in bullet diameter and weights. It's a long range cartridge, longer than .308, but has less recoil. It's more powerful than .223, but not as powerful as .308, so the 6.5 makes sense. Somebody tell me that the 6mm has a leg to stand on because I'm not seeing it. |
January 21, 2017, 05:26 AM | #2 |
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Factory rifles and barrels built to take advantage of longer, heavier 6mm bullets and a case designed to shoot those heavier bullets without taking up powder capacity. Which is exactly the same advantage 6.5 Creedmoor has over 260.
I you go to the trouble to custom build a 243 or 260 and handload your ammo they can do the same thing as 6mm and 6.5 Creedmoor. But the Creedmoor's offer the option of buying that capability off the shelf with both rifles and ammo. If you're shooting bullets under 100 gr in 243 or under about 120 gr in 260 then the Creedmoor's don't offer any advantages. But people are finding that heavier bullets in both calibers can do some amazing things.
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January 21, 2017, 07:01 AM | #3 |
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the twist in the barrel will be the thing to watch, the 6mm with good heavy bullets is the only long range option. eastbank.
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January 21, 2017, 08:26 AM | #4 |
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Spell it Creedmoor. It helps when people use the search function.
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January 21, 2017, 09:10 AM | #5 |
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trumps president, no moor PC grammer police please. eastbank.
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January 21, 2017, 11:03 AM | #6 | |
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January 21, 2017, 11:49 AM | #7 |
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I did that not to police grammar, but rather to make a suggestion as to how to make the conversation more useful in the future. I can't tell you how many times I have typed Creedmoor into some form of a search engine. I like to think I am not alone in this. The OP can take it as a constructive suggestion or be offended. His choice.
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January 21, 2017, 02:22 PM | #8 | ||
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This article was written before the 6.5 CM hit the scene but it explains why GA Precision (GAP) went to 6mm bullets early on. In fact I think GAP was one of the first to offer the 6mm CM and have been selling factory Hornady 6mm CM brass for the last few years. Here is a quote from the article. Quote:
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January 21, 2017, 02:49 PM | #9 |
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The merit of the 6mm CM is escaping the "deer cartridge" label tagged on the .243Win. It does not do anything better as a cartridge.
Like someone else said, the twist is what is important. Ruger was the only one making a factory gun with the proper twist, and now that they dropped it in favor of the 6CM, they have added to that label. There are several top shooters that have won with .243Win. But most are on to something with more sex appeal. Shooter Shame (similar to mid-life crisis) drives them into the arms of the new marketing hottness. |
January 22, 2017, 07:55 AM | #10 |
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"Factory rifles and barrels built to take advantage of longer, heavier 6mm bullets "
This is more of an equipment issue than a cartridge innovation. "and a case designed to shoot those heavier bullets without taking up powder capacity. Which is exactly the same advantage 6.5 Creedmoor has over 260." An "improved" profile and slightly longer neck doesn't seem to be all that much of "an innovative design". |
January 22, 2017, 08:10 AM | #11 |
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Any difference in barrel life between 243 and 6cm?
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January 22, 2017, 09:36 AM | #12 | |
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January 22, 2017, 10:05 AM | #13 | ||
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I am a believer in heavy for caliber bullets, to a point. That is why I argue in favor of the 9.3x62 over the 35 whelen. BUT!!! I dont need 500 grain bullets with a 1:9 twist because some one on the web is blurbing gibberish about his 1000 yard 9.3. Call it a 9.3 creedmore and branch out on your own. I prefer the 6.5x55 over say a 260. I know the difference. Nothing to do with 1000 yard shooting. They key is I know the guns and ammo going in. I am fine with the sweed and 260 being replaced with the creedmore, for long range. A 243 Ruger American 1:10 twist and RPR in 6mm Creed has 7.7 twist. No confusion over what is what. Each gun is optimized for a different task. On balance this seems better to me. Last edited by fourbore; January 22, 2017 at 10:21 AM. |
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January 22, 2017, 10:12 AM | #14 |
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I'm not a competitive shooter so I actually know little about "match class" cartridges from personal experience unless they happen to hit a "dual purpose" category like the 6.5 Creedmoor has. To me that's an important element. For hunting and casual shooting I would go with a 243 due to the cost and availability factor.
In that line of reasoning, in 6.5 caliber, there doesn't seem to be much logic in choosing 6.5 Swede over 6.5 Creedmoor unless you want to launch 160 grain roundnose projectiles. 6.5 Creemoor is now widely available, affordable, with new rifle choices seemly coming out daily. Perhaps 6mm Creedmoor may take the market in a similar fashion, but I doubt it. The 243 Winchester is way more popular than the good ole Swede ever was at least in America. I was reading the results of a survey given to the top 100 competitors of the Precision Rifle Series. Their choice was... #1 6.5x47 Lapua #2 6mm Creedmoor #3 6.5 Creedmoor #4 6mm Lapua The author also stated that these guys were very talented shooters who could probably win with just about any caliber, but nevertheless, these were their choices. |
January 22, 2017, 10:12 AM | #15 |
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fourbore, the ONLY difference in the RPR .243Win and 6CM is the chamber dimensions. Both 1:7.7, with equal velocity ammo, both shoot the same groups with the same drops.
The Ruger American Predator in .243Win has a 1:9, which is appropriate. The 6CM in the RAP with a 1:7.7, won't shoot anything under 85 grain with good results and fouls pretty quick even with the 85 and 87 grain ammo. |
January 22, 2017, 10:22 AM | #16 |
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The that does blur the lines
Oh, if 243 is generally 1:9, that was just lazy on my part. I did not know. It might kind of illustrate the problem - at my expense. |
January 22, 2017, 10:59 AM | #17 |
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.243s have been 1:10 to 1:14. I'd guess 1:10 is the most common now. Ruger twisted most of theirs faster than any manufacturer had in the past, then dumped the best one, the RPR in only 2 years time.
I have 5 .243s, from 1:7.7 to 1:12 and they are all different for sure, but 6mms do tend to be less finicky about twist and velocity (as it affects accuracy) than the other bore diameters I play with. |
January 25, 2017, 10:58 PM | #18 |
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There was no point in making the 6.5 Creedmoor as the 260 Rem was already out, but you can't stop wildcatters from necking every available cartridge up, down, and sideways.
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January 26, 2017, 09:29 AM | #19 | |
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The 6.5 Creedmoor's design allows the most flexibility for seating long slender bullets of various weights from roughly 100 to over 140. If you are a competitive target shooter, that feature matters. Those guys are looking for every little thing where they can pick up an improvement to gain an edge. The 260 is still a fine round, but the Creedmoor is better and that is largely why it replaced the 260 so quickly. |
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January 26, 2017, 12:58 PM | #20 | |
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January 26, 2017, 02:14 PM | #21 |
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But I bet you can't load the Berger's to the lands and remain magazine length. I can't do it with either of mine - 260 or 260 AI. I have no problem loading to the lands with my two 6.5 Creedmoor's and being well within magazine length limits.
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January 26, 2017, 03:40 PM | #22 | |
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January 26, 2017, 05:45 PM | #23 | |
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6.5 Creedmoor owners, get a little more flexibility with a wider variety of bullets whether you think they need it not. Apparently a whole bunch of competitive and casual shooters are choosing to take advantage of it. Do some google research into what the top guys are winning with these days and I think you'll find the Creedmoor ahead of 260. Must be something there, they can't all be wrong. BTW I believe the current world record for 10 shots is still a bit under 2 3/4". It was shot with a 6mm Dasher which I understand is a 6mm BR improved (short, sharp shoulder, lots of bullet out of the case). I wonder why on earth he felt like he needed that when there are so many 243s out there? Last edited by oldscot3; January 26, 2017 at 06:05 PM. |
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January 26, 2017, 06:18 PM | #24 | |
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FWIW, Al Ashton is still kicking about and is on the BOD of the Colorado Rifle Club. When I told him PRS guys were starting to use 6 Dasher, he was a little surprised, and happy. He and Dan did years ago what folks are reinventing. |
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January 26, 2017, 07:11 PM | #25 | |
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As often happens, we're getting off the op.
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This whole thing kinda reminds me of drag and stock car racing. It used to be said, "what wins on the Sunday, sells on Monday". In the automotive world, it really was/is true that "racing improves the breed". I don't think it's a stretch to apply that to competitive shooting. Those guys are sharp innovators, and the rest of us benefit from what they share. |
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