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Old August 25, 2014, 06:09 PM   #1
KimH
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German Schuetzen/Schutzen Rifle question…

I have a question about a German “Schuetzen rifle” - it says "Victor Trülzsch in Nürnberg" on the barrel. It’s basically covered with hand carving and engraving.

My uncle brought it back from occupied Germany at the end of WWII. His unit was disarming German homes, and they put confiscated rifles in the street- muzzles on the curb, and stocks on the street. Then they ran over them with a tank. I guess that’s war- effective, but imagine the antiques that were lost… My uncle saw this particular rifle about to be crushed, and saved it and took it back to the States.

Anyway, I decided it was time to put it on the market- sad but true. It's listed here:

http://www.oldetymestuffe.com/aboutus604.html

Better pix on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/gp/kimhill/5YEpS2

But I found out today that the auction is happening weeks sooner than I expected- actually this Thursday, 8/25, and now I'm nervous. I set a reserve price of $3,000 for it, and I’m not sure if that’s the appropriate amount. Does anyone here have any perspective on this? I only have two days left to change this…

Thanks!

Kim



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Old August 25, 2014, 07:06 PM   #2
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I think you might want to consider listing it on a firearms dedicated auction site such as gunbroker. I would delay the auction you have listed until you have some confidence in its true value.

Schuetzen rifles are part of "Schuetzenfest"; a beer drinking/shooting festival focused on marksmanship. I think a wooden eagle is carved and blown to bits with .22's throughout the festival. Prizes given for knocking of each wing, head, final hunk of wood.

Very special rifle you have there.
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Old August 25, 2014, 07:48 PM   #3
Jim Watson
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That is a nice example.
The stock carving is better than some and the engraving is a good deal better than some I have seen.

How is the bore? It looks mostly dirty in the picture, which will not help resale.

The Martini action is not as common in German guns as Swiss.

It is a darned good thing it retains its sights. Many shooters stored them off the gun and they were left behind when GI gun controllers made off with the loot.

I can't guess a dollar value.
You might sign up on Gun Broker and search on completed auctions. I doubt there are many for scheutzens, though.
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Old August 26, 2014, 08:28 PM   #4
James K
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Googling "Schuetzen rifles for sale" will turn up some sites that specialize in those. Values (or asking prices) vary a lot, but $1800-3000 seems about average.

Sometimes those guns are hard to sell; the engraving, while excellent, is very Germanic and not to everyone's taste.

Jim
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Old August 27, 2014, 01:50 PM   #5
KimH
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Thanks, Vt.birdhunter, and thanks for the info. If there weren’t other issues, I would delay the auction. Unfortunately, the rifle has been out of state at a relative's home, and there were some logistical challenges in managing cross country transport - expensive, time-intensive, and potentially a damage risk. So I stuck with the local auction house in Massachusetts. Also, I’m based in NYC, which is extremely hostile in terms of gun laws. Even though it’s an antique, I would be concerned about running afoul of something/someone if I brought it here beforehand. Sad, but true…

Jim W, I’m afraid I didn’t think to check the bore, but given the rifle’s overall condition, I think the bore should be in pretty good shape. I’m also wondering- how many collectors would actually plan to shoot it? How do you get the old, non-standard shells for it?

James K, thanks for the price guestimate!
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Old August 27, 2014, 06:08 PM   #6
Jim Watson
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I don't know how many schuetzen owners actually shoot them, probably not a high proportion considering the decline of offhand shooting in the USA, but some do. And bore condition counts at any NRA standard rating and an NRA Antique rating of Fine or Excellent. Even if the bore were "dark" and it was being considered only as a showpiece, cleanliness would matter.

A friend had one, not as ornate as yours, but in excellent condition. He handloaded for it and shot it. Darned well, too.
"Old non standard shells" are a non-issue if you are willing to go to a little trouble to keep a nice old gun in action.
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Old August 27, 2014, 06:32 PM   #7
James K
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I don't see any mention of caliber, but many of those guns were made for a cartridge that is almost unobtainable today, .22 Long Rifle.

Otners were made in centerifire calibers that can be obtained or relatively easily loaded for.

Jim
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Old August 27, 2014, 07:30 PM   #8
Jim Watson
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The hole in the end of the barrel looks larger than .22.

Likely an 8.15x46R but not certain.
Apparently few Europeans cast bullets, there were a lot of factory bullets in graduated diameters and weights to allow tuning the load.
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Old August 27, 2014, 08:27 PM   #9
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Even powder was sold in pre-weighed packets, not only for convenience but mainly to comply with laws restricting purchase of bulk powder.

Jim
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Old August 27, 2014, 09:55 PM   #10
Jim Watson
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I have seen that someplace but could not find it in the 1911 Alfa catalog to cite.
Although Alfa did carry bulk powder for some markets.
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Old August 27, 2014, 10:50 PM   #11
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Jim W, thanks for the info- very interesting. I think I overestimated the challenge of procuring ammo, although I’ve never hand loaded anything. In retrospect, it would have been great to actually shoot it. Unfortunately, living in NYC also makes everything a lot harder.

The bore definitely looks larger than .22. I’ve seen the 8.15x46 caliber mentioned before for related guns, and I’m guessing that this may well be it.
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Old August 27, 2014, 10:51 PM   #12
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>> "…many of those guns were made for a cartridge that is almost unobtainable today, .22 Long Rifle"

I guess I'm getting old. That's mostly what I used when I was a kid.
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Old August 28, 2014, 09:34 AM   #13
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The Panickers, hoarders, and scalpers have virtually eliminated the cheap, varied .22 ammo market. Who knows how long it will take to refill the supply chain. We are only now seeing supplies of centerfire reloading components getting available, and pistol powder is still scarce.
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Old August 29, 2014, 07:27 AM   #14
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Agree with you Jim. I heard there's one guy at Trinidad with the inside scoop at Wally World. He's there every Thursday at 7 a.m. waiting for the ammo to be placed on the shelves and he brags he has 500,000 round of 22 LR.

I'm waiting for ODCMP to fill my order for 22 LR. Tain't cheap, but it'll get here. Gone are the happy days of $13 for 550 rounds. Man, I'm old.
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Old September 3, 2014, 10:47 AM   #15
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If the gun didn't sell, pull the forearm stock. There should be a number of proof stamps underneath on the barrel. These should tell you the caliber (the chamber in the pictures doesn't look like a rimfire chamber, so the 8.15 guess might be spot on), the timeframe it was proofed in, and the proof house. All info that would help in determining the true value of the rifle.
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Old September 3, 2014, 02:40 PM   #16
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Gary, the first .22 LR I ever bought was 35 cents a box. That was Monkey Wards brand (made by Federal*, I think) back around 1947. .22 Short was 29 cents. Then it went up to around $.50 a box. There was a little store in my home town that was owned by a gun guy. He equated 1 .22 LR to 1 cent on about everything. I remember buying a nickel bottle of Pepsi ("Twelve full ounces for a nickel too" was the radio jingle) for two pennies and three .22 "shells".

*I might be wrong, but I don't think Federal sold ammo under their own name; they made ammo for the store brands. At least, I never heard of Federal brand ammo until a lot later.

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