Lucky Gunner has new series on "MOuSE GuNs"

[HighValleyRanch]

I just happened to see that Chris is presenting a new series on mouse guns after talking and taking a class with Claude Werner, "Tactical Professor".
Looks very interesting and adds to the discussion of whether we as a shooting community are overly concerned with calibers, and how the statistics from police encounters are different than CCW.

Since I like to carry my Seecamp and Sig 230, this is of interest to me, and might be to others that also like their down played mouse guns!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6PxB2TqLM

[reteach]

I like that video. Thanks for posting the link. My usual carry method is in my pocket with a .380 or a revolver loaded with .32 H&R. And sometimes I carry a .32 ACP. I agree with Mr. Werner that it is very, very unlikely that I will need a bigger gun. I'll be reading more of his stuff.

[Bill DeShivs]

Mr. Werner is a smart man. No matter where I am, my gun is in my pocket. It's as much a part of my dress as my pants.
It may not be a Desert Eagle, but I have a viable little firearm conveniently with me at all times.

[TunnelRat]

I'd disagree the choices are between a pocket pistol and a Desert Eagle.

Certainly a firearm is better than none and it's better to be realistic about what you can and will carry. We're fortunate to live in a time where concealable pistols are widely available from many manufacturers, as well as holsters of various types designed specifically for them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[TruthTellers]

I won't address .22 rimfire (both LR and Magnum) much here because I think it's common sense that the hyper velocity .22 LR and the Speer, Winchester, and Hornady short barrel .22 Mag is the best for self defense.

So, IMO, the biggest issue facing the .25 and .32 caliber is the lack of innovation and support by ammo manufacturers. The .25 is stuck with two options: 35 grain JHP's that due to velocity won't expand and 50 grain FMJ's while the .32 ACP isn't much better with 60 grain JHP's, 71 grain FMJ's, and a unique 50 grain all copper bullet by Lehigh.

The .25 I don't see much that can be done to improve it, but the .32 ACP isn't that much smaller than .380 that things can't be done with it.

All the focus is on .380, that's where lots of different bullets and ammo and pistols have been developed. My only issue with .380 pocket pistols is that they're tough to shoot for me, the recoil is very tough and my nerves aren't made of steel, so after 20 rounds I get the Michael J. Fox shakes.

The .32 revolver is the real oddball out of all as it's a mousegun caliber, but it's in the same size gun as a 5 shot .38/.357. I have a hard time calling a cartridge that can shoot a 115 grain bullet a mousegun, but with how little recoil .32 S&W has and some .32 H&R have, it's close. I'd rather have a .327 LCR over an LCP every day of the week.

[cslinger]

I think the most important takeaway in these is that YOUR JOB isn’t necessarily to stop the threat so to speak but to be able to break contact.

If the presentation of said firearm causes attacker to break contact awesome.
If putting rounds down range cause the attacker to break contact or give you the escape route....awesome.

Point is it’s all about getting you and or loved ones out of danger and that may not require substantial calibers. Not saying that being prepared for a determined attacker is a bad thing just that the whole goal is simply getting you and yours to safety and some .32 caliber suppression fire might just be the ticket.

I for one don’t ever want to harm another human. I for one would be just as happy running off a bad guy. I for one would have serious mental issues knowing I killed another human, even one who legally and morally deserved it so to speak.

Point is lesser calibers may not kill or physically stop as effectively but in the vast number of cases may very well allow for a safe break in contact and that is all good.

.....said the guy who doesn’t carry less then 9mm with quality defensive ammo.

[Jdin8455]

I wish I could join these conversations, but I live in a state where I'm not allowed to defend my self, when in public.

[USNRet93]

Great video..really like his coverage of 'missions', Military vs Police vs private citizen.

Another good video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc&t=519s

And for above, 'truthtellers'

My only issue with .380 pocket pistols is that they're tough to shoot for me, the recoil is very tough and my nerves aren't made of steel, so after 20 rounds I get the Michael J. Fox shakes.

Glock 42 and Sig P238..very light recoil, not tiny but easy to CCW..I carry a G42 everyday. I have an arthritic RH wrist and poorly repaired dislocated RH thumb(thanks USN docs), so I'm 'recoil sensitive' also. G42 a joy to shoot, very accurate, very reliable..not expensive.

Lehigh Xtreme Defender ammo...

[GarandTd]

That is a good video. 99% of my carry time is with a 380. I also liked the comparison of purpose between civilian, law enforcement, and military.

[HighValleyRanch]

If you look at the date on Chris's posting, it was just ten days ago, so this is very new and current. So we hope to see more presentations on this point of view. I have always enjoyed his videos and presentations, even though I might not agree with all he says.

Remember Claude Werner's 80/20 statement in presenting his point of view. Take care of the 80 percent first.

[Nanuk]

With a wing and a prayer.....


I will stick with my fullsize Glock or magnum revolver.

[wnycollector]

I loved the video and look forward to more in the coming weeks and months. For the last several years my main ccw has been either a Ruger LCP or a Kel-Tec P32. My wife has settled on a Beretta 950 as her primary CCW. While many would disagree with those choices I would prefer to have a pistol in my pocket at all times rather having a service sized handgun locked in my truck.

[Screwball]

My go-to pocket gun is an original Ruger LCP... like post recall LCP. No redesigned trigger, no better sights.... what originally came out from Ruger. I did do a few changes to the gun, especially the updated takedown pin. I might pick up a LCP II, but likely not until I move.

A few years ago, I wanted to move away from not as common calibers. Mainly, a cost issue... but was .380 and .38 Special. That LCP and my S&W 642-1 were included. My Glock 30S did come into rotation around that time, but more of something I wanted than needed (a .45 Glock 19 is something I wanted). I picked up a SIG P938 SAS, and had the 642-1 converted to 9mm with a conversion cylinder. Both are great, and I still carry them... but they aren’t pocket guns for me. The biggest gun I can draw from a normal pocket is the LCP... due to hand size. Can’t with the P938, just due to the larger profile (with the flush six round magazine).

The P938 is a great cargo pocket gun, even though I have IWB holsters for it. The 642-1... predominantly is an IWB gun, but I just had JEA Custom make a cargo pocket holster for it (and the LaserMax light that I run on it). I like that sort of carry (comfortable)... but it isn’t just cargo pocket carry across the board.

That being said, all I managed to do was drop .38 Special. The LCP is just too small, and nothing really can fill that void. There isn’t a 9mm in the same size realm. I run the Magguts magazine internals, in a Recluse rear pocket holster... and it allows me to have 15 rounds of .380 in my back pocket. Can boost it up to 22 rounds, as I usually leave a spare magazine in my center console.

If I need more than that, or more than the 15 to 20 rounds of 9mm that I carry with the other two guns, or more than the 31+ rounds of .45 when I decide to carry the Glock... I shouldn’t be there. Plain and simple. Most people drawing any of those three pistols in .380 or 9mm aren’t taking down an ISIS terror cell (same with the Glock; it is a little more capable as it is moving closer to duty gun size... but it still is a handgun).

[smee78]

I really like his point of having different mission goals. It seems a lot of information is directed toward the other end of the spectrum VS being able to break contact to get away to safety. I am one of the small % who cannot carry a bigger gun due to work regulations/restrictions. I'm not looking to go unprotected due to the location of my work but feel a little better knowing I have my little 32 NAA Guardian in my pocket if ever needed. Its still dark when I open the facility in the AM and am the first one there so I have only myself to depend on.

[Jim Watson]

I like Luckygunner. Why? They post transcripts so I don't have to listen to a Youtube Mumble. True, Claude is a good speaker but not everybody with something worthwhile to say can elucidate and enunciate. Print is good.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by USNRet93

Great video..really like his coverage of 'missions', Military vs Police vs private citizen.

Another good video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc&t=519s

And for above, 'truthtellers'


Glock 42 and Sig P238..very light recoil, not tiny but easy to CCW..I carry a G42 everyday. I have an arthritic RH wrist and poorly repaired dislocated RH thumb(thanks USN docs), so I'm 'recoil sensitive' also. G42 a joy to shoot, very accurate, very reliable..not expensive.

Lehigh Xtreme Defender ammo...

I don't buy .380 pistols to shoot .380, I buy them for the small size, the Glock 42 is not small enough and I'd rather have it a tiny bit larger in 9mm or just go down to .32 ACP.

I can already guess how the .32 ACP will fair in these tests, but the focus on the video is what will make an attacker stop attacking and I would believe .32 ACP would be adequate.

[reteach]

I posted this comment a while back in a discussion about a j-frame being enough gun. It fits here, too:

All I have to do to win is not lose.

In other words, all I need to do is get away safe. As Werner puts it, break contact. A pocket-sized gun is very likely to help me achieve that.

[CDW4ME]

I carry pistols that I would prefer to have in my hand if I had to defend my life, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 are preferred calibers.
I was police in early 90's, there is no difference in my goal now vs then: Stop threat ASAP.

[Nanuk]

All I have to do to win is not lose.

In other words, all I need to do is get away safe. As Werner puts it, break contact. A pocket-sized gun is very likely to help me achieve that.

It is not always that simple. The military context does not apply to civilian self defense. It sounds good, but it is not always as easy to "break contact" on the street.

Chris is really not experienced enough to be pushing his opinions on carry guns. He lost me a while back with his fear of magnum revolvers.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

It is not always that simple. The military context does not apply to civilian self defense. It sounds good, but it is not always as easy to "break contact" on the street.

Chris is really not experienced enough to be pushing his opinions on carry guns. He lost me a while back with his fear of magnum revolvers.

I guess any revolver that's not a magnum revolver is completely worthless, eh?

I know you like your magnums with 180 grain bullets in both .357 and .44 variety, but it's not the standard to go by when it comes to self defense. The standard is a gun you brought with you that you shoot well with and gives you confidence you can shoot it under stress, effectively.

Short barrel .357's don't give me that and with the issues I have shooting the micro .380's, they don't either.

[reteach]

but it is not always as easy to "break contact" on the street.

Nanuk - I see that you have military and law enforcement experience. I appreciate and respect that. You have a different but also informed view on this matter. I'm not challenging you, I really want to understand better. In what way is it harder to break contact in a civilian situation?

Thanks.

[Nanuk]

In what way is it harder to break contact in a civilian situation?

It all depends on the context. If I decided I am taking your wallet and either alone or with friends begin an attack it is already at bad breath distance and you are generally alone.

The military context, you are never alone. The US military is not a good example, especially the SF community as they have the benefit of the latest, greatest technology and battlefield intelligence. If you had a crystal ball to tell you of an impending attack, you could break contact before it really ever happened.

[Nanuk]

I guess any revolver that's not a magnum revolver is completely worthless, eh?

Nope, never said that. I like the 44 Special alot, the 45 Colt. I have no use for the 38 Special. If for whatever reason that is all you can handle, carry on.

I know you like your magnums with 180 grain bullets in both .357 and .44 variety, but it's not the standard to go by when it comes to self defense.

Actually I only used the 180 in the 357 magnum for that one specific scenario 30 years ago, however, from a 6" revolver it works fine for about anything. My main carry load for the 357 was the 145 grn WW STHP, but @ $1 a round these days I will carry 125 grn JHP's when I carry a 357. I don't care who's standard it is or is not, I carry and use what I know works consistently.

The standard is a gun you brought with you that you shoot well with and gives you confidence you can shoot it under stress, effectively.

Yep, carry the most powerful gun you can conceal and shoot well. I usually carry my Glock 31C loaded with these.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...=7865900990521

Short barrel .357's don't give me that and with the issues I have shooting the micro .380's, they don't either.

On the street, the .380 works about as well as a 38 Special. I consider both to be the minimum acceptable.

[jimbob86]

The best arguments against the traditional semi-auto mousegun chamberings (.380, .32 and .25 auto , etc.) are that there are now 9mm guns out there of similar size and weight and practice ammo for these other chamberings are 2 to 3 times what 9mm costs. The difference between them, on a cost basis, is significant if one actually PRACTICES: It's not a talisman and only works if you have the skills to get it into action and make hits. That doesn't happen without expending ammo on a regular basis, and if you are going to burn a $100 to shoot a couple boxes of ammo every time you go to the range, you are less likely to go than if it only costs you $50.

[HighValleyRanch]

going to burn a $100 to shoot a couple boxes of ammo every time you go to the range, you are less likely to go than if it only costs you $50.

Just burning ammo is not a guarantee to getting the proper skills
Knowledgeable practice is the key.

The skills to shoot a small .380 are no different than the skills to shoot a 10mm. One should be masterful enough that the practice does not have to be gun/ammo specific, but skilled enough that no matter what the platform, the skills are transferable.