Sig Suspends Shipping on P365 - Page 2

WVsig · February 15, 2018, 04:27 PM

Why does this surprise anyone. Name the last new Sig design that shipped and did not have a problem once it was in the hands of paying beta testers?

556? P250? GSR 1911? P320? P238? MPX?

Honestly the last gun they brought to market that ran perfectly right off the bat was the P229 which was really just a P228, which is really just a shortened P226, in 40 S&W. IIRC they were introduced when Sig was still a German company.

Always remember WVSig rule: NEVER and I MEAN NEVER buy a new Sig in the first year of its production.

TruthTellers · February 15, 2018, 04:45 PM

Quote:

It's not completely the fault of manufacturers. The percentage of people that will pay the extra for a longer lasting product is smaller than you think. We have Ruger, for example, discontinuing some more expensive models in lieu of models they can sell for close to $200 because for many people that's all they are willing to spend. Heck even the 365 is likely to have a notably higher street price than some of the other micro pistols out there, and fortunately for SIG they have the capacity argument to try and rationalize that added cost. People want the newest product as fast and as cheap as possible. The reality is if SIG had kept with their low volume model model of the past they likely would have gone out of business by now.

"Long lasting" is very subjective, but even with the $200 Rugers and $150 Hi Points, they last longer out of box than this Sig pistol did.

But, this is a very new pistol and design, so the bugs are there. They should have been taken care of during prototype testing though. There's no excuse for broken firing pins or mushroomed barrels and battery failures. I thought Sig was better than that, but it's obvious than any gun manufacturer is capable of making bad stuff because their employees are capable of producing bad parts.

lifesizepotato · February 15, 2018, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVsig

Why does this surprise anyone. Name the last new Sig design that shipped and did not have a problem once it was in the hands of paying beta testers?

556? P250? GSR 1911? P320? P238? MPX?

Honestly the last gun they brought to market that ran perfectly right off the bat was the P229 which was really just a P228, which is really just a shortened P226, in 40 S&W. IIRC they were introduced when Sig was still a German company.

That's why it's always peculiar to me that there are still rabid SIG fanboys who get excited about their new releases and treat the company as a high-end gun manufacturer. It may have made sense in 1993, but as far as I can tell the company's been coasting on their reputation from the P210, 550 and P22x for too long.

WVsig · February 15, 2018, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifesizepotato

That's why it's always peculiar to me that there are still rabid SIG fanboys who get excited about their new releases and treat the company as a high-end gun manufacturer. It may have made sense in 1993, but as far as I can tell the company's been coasting on their reputation from the P210, 550 and P22x for too long.

Yeah IMHO they have lost their way. One thing we have to remember that back before Cohen took over and moved the company to the US they were losing money. They were starting to lose market share to Glock. They were not selling enough pistols and the company was in real danger.

Without Cohen Sig could have gone away. He is great at marketing. IMHO these days Sig is a great marketing company who happens to sell guns. They unfortunately are better at the marketing than making the guns. Look at the new Military contract they won that by marketing and selling the modular concept and then bid it appropriately.

presspics · February 15, 2018, 06:31 PM

It's not just SIG..Hell, Glock has been making the same gun for 30+ years and they still have problems. S&W's have problems, Colt still can't make a 100 year old gun correctly..Crap happens..

fourbore · February 15, 2018, 06:53 PM

Wow! SIG haters. I recently got my first SIG. It is a well built inside and out. Tight and accurate, but at the same time 100.000% reliable. Also 100% plastic free. If SIG is a poor builder, what is Ruger and S&W?

I think, I can cut them some slack on bugs with a new design. Now, anyone who is averse to issues with new guns, should try and exercise a little restraint and wait a while. If you just hate SIG, ok, (dont even own the gun in question) here is your opportunity. I though it was just the baggy pants youth who lack patience. But, I been thinking recently. Yes, it hurts! Way back, as far as I can remember, there been new gun announcement and buyers waiting for the first one they can get. Worse than that, if not complaining about inevitable new design bugs, they are livid with ANGER over any delay between announcement and release. To soon, too late, ....

TunnelRat · February 15, 2018, 07:05 PM

I would argue that a number of those companies you mentioned have QC issues that I could attribute to occasional defects. This isn't just a few defects, this is a failure to test a design fully before release to the public and arguably a failed manufacturing process.

I've gone on here before about how I have (or these days had) friends that worked at the factory over years. The turnover at SIG is quite high. From what I've been told, and obviously there's a big caveat with hearsay, SIG is one of the biggest CNC manufacturers of parts around. It just happens that they use those parts to make firearms. If you think SIG and you think old school craftsmanship, you're wrong. I had friends doing runs of thousands of parts in a given week. Basically they ran the machines, machines produced parts, and on they went. Hand-fitting or whatnot isn't a factor, it's about using CNC to produce parts as efficiently as possible. For my friends it was a never ending race of producing more and more parts. There would be entire batches that would be bad and thousands of parts would get trashed because, as best as I can tell, their testing is on very large batches and they don't seem to catch issues early enough. These same employees complained of long hours (essentially mandatory OT), Christmas bonuses being cut to have a better quarter, and pay that while decent wasn't so great that basically every place they applied to after paid more money despite being much smaller shops.

Does this make SIG the devil? No, and frankly I imagine they operate just like any number of other companies out there. But that's the point. This notion of a cut of quality above the rest is to me no longer valid. I take courses at SIG Sauer Academy. I take typically 4-6 a year. I have seen plenty of failures of SIG products, both from loaners and from attendees who, surprise surprise, tend to buy SIG products. I don't see anything that makes me think, "Damn that's impressive." I'm not calling it junk, I'm calling it average and their marketing is based around being anything but average. None of this makes me thrilled. I don't hate SIG. I've owned over a dozen SIG pistols, I still have two, and despite being a bit backwoods I'm proud to be from NH. However, SIG isn't really a source of pride for me anymore.

Mk VII · February 15, 2018, 07:14 PM

One of our auto manufacturers here used to have an internal slogan "The customer is our final inspector", and it was true, they did leave final inspection to the customer.

TruthTellers · February 15, 2018, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifesizepotato

That's why it's always peculiar to me that there are still rabid SIG fanboys who get excited about their new releases and treat the company as a high-end gun manufacturer. It may have made sense in 1993, but as far as I can tell the company's been coasting on their reputation from the P210, 550 and P22x for too long.

In the firearm industry, it takes a long time to change a company's reputation of their products. Hi Points are among the most heavily criticized guns by people who believe they're pieces of garbage simply for how they look or that they use polymer and zamak.

I've shot one, it worked. Trigger wasn't great and the ergonomics sucked, but that's the trade off for a $150 gun and at the least, the customer service is great.

Same thing I've seen with Pietta cap and ball revolvers. Somebody had one in the early 90s, it was a lemon, and for 25 years he's complained about it and never tried another one and swears Uberti is the best.

Compare that to Remington who the average Joe and old guys look at as a premium gun manufacturer of utmost quality and ethics when in reality they're responsible for deaths of people via the design flaw of the Remington 700 triggers, they've declared bankruptcy, can't release a gun that works properly, and have poor customer service. In 2018 though, Remington is still the Holy Grail of outdoors sporting and hunting firearms.

Reputations in the gun industry stick for a very long time and seemingly, they don't change or their fanboys don't accept reality until the company goes out of business or is on the verge of it, i.e. Colt and Remington.

IMO, blind faith gets you nowhere in life, especially with the gun industry from the manufacturer all the way down to your local FFL.

WVsig · February 15, 2018, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I would argue that a number of those companies you mentioned have QC issues that I could attribute to occasional defects. This isn't just a few defects, this is a failure to test a design fully before release to the public and arguably a failed manufacturing process.

I've gone on here before about how I have (or these days had) friends that worked at the factory over years. The turnover at SIG is quite high. From what I've been told, and obviously there's a big caveat with hearsay, SIG is one of the biggest CNC manufacturers of parts around. It just happens that they use those parts to make firearms. If you think SIG and you think old school craftsmanship, you're wrong. I had friends doing runs of thousands of parts in a given week. Basically they ran the machines, machines produced parts, and on they went. Hand-fitting or whatnot isn't a factor, it's about using CNC to produce parts as efficiently as possible. For my friends it was a never ending race of producing more and more parts. There would be entire batches that would be bad and thousands of parts would get trashed because, as best as I can tell, their testing is on very large batches and they don't seem to catch issues early enough. These same employees complained of long hours (essentially mandatory OT), Christmas bonuses being cut to have a better quarter, and pay that while decent wasn't so great that basically every place they applied to after paid more money despite being much smaller shops.

Does this make SIG the devil? No, and frankly I imagine they operate just like any number of other companies out there. But that's the point. This notion of a cut of quality above the rest is to me no longer valid. I take courses at SIG Sauer Academy. I take typically 4-6 a year. I have seen plenty of failures of SIG products, both from loaners and from attendees who, surprise surprise, tend to buy SIG products. I don't see anything that makes me think, "Damn that's impressive." I'm not calling it junk, I'm calling it average and their marketing is based around being anything but average. None of this makes me thrilled. I don't hate SIG. I've owned over a dozen SIG pistols, I still have two, and despite being a bit backwoods I'm proud to be from NH. However, SIG isn't really a source of pride for me anymore.

100% spot on!

TruthTellers · February 16, 2018, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Does this make SIG the devil? No, and frankly I imagine they operate just like any number of other companies out there. But that's the point. This notion of a cut of quality above the rest is to me no longer valid.

I agree and the difference between companies now is clearly their customer service and repair department.

In that case, Ruger, North American Arms, Charter Arms, and Hi Point are some of the best.

Kilrb · February 16, 2018, 05:29 AM

You see this everywhere, I work in customer service in a large industry and seen this get worse over the years. It is something that seems acceptable now. Don't get what is wrong with slowing up and sending out quality.

PPGMD · February 16, 2018, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Hand-fitting or whatnot isn't a factor, it's about using CNC to produce parts as efficiently as possible.

You do realize that the entire folded slide process developed for the 220 was done because it was cheaper than hand machining that was used for the P210. Hand fitting was required because it isn't as precise of a process as CNC milling. SIG's were and are cheap service pistols.

The only pistols that SIG sells that gets hand fitting are the 1911s.

TunnelRat · February 16, 2018, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PPGMD

You do realize that the entire folded slide process developed for the 220 was done because it was cheaper than hand machining that was used for the P210. Hand fitting was required because it isn't as precise of a process as CNC milling. SIG's were and are cheap service pistols.

The only pistols that SIG sells that gets hand fitting are the 1911s.

I do realize that. My point is many people I encounter have such a mental image.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lohman446 · February 16, 2018, 09:45 AM

Quote:

I'm calling it average and their marketing is based around being anything but average

I think you have touched on my disappointment. Though I question if the last few "new" firearms by Sig even qualify as average which really is what makes me sad.

My thought process on this was like "I like the specs I'm seeing. We'll wait a couple months, make sure they don't have issues like that last one I recall hearing about, and buy one. I mean its a SIG I'm sure it will be good to go"

Its been like a couple weeks since people were complaining about the high release price and declaring it a "Glock killer" and I'm rethinking the whole "it will be good, its a SIG" portion of my thought process. That gets me to thinking how far they have come from being one of the premier brands that I remember.

straightshooterjake · February 16, 2018, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PPGMD

You do realize that the entire folded slide process developed for the 220 was done because it was cheaper than hand machining that was used for the P210. Hand fitting was required because it isn't as precise of a process as CNC milling. SIG's were and are cheap service pistols.

The only pistols that SIG sells that gets hand fitting are the 1911s.

I disagree with the statement that "SIG's were and are cheap service pistols." I have found German made SIG pistols that are at least 15 years old or more to be very well made. I am a range officer for my club, and I see a lot of guns in use. Older German SIG pistols very rarely malfunction, and are generally quite accurate. I think the older SIG P22x guns deserve their strong reputation.

Note that I am not a SIG fan. I have seen lots of problems with more recently manufactured SIGs, and I am not satisfied with their quality. I also am not a fan of traditional double action autos for most purposes. So for both of these reasons, I generally recommend against SIGs when I am asked. But I still have respect for the older SIG pistols.

Ignition Override · February 16, 2018, 11:30 AM

Well, if you live in southern AL near Mobile, an Armslist seller has a "P6"/ Sig 225 for $550 (No shipping).

Not joking, as so many people seem now to look back to the 100% German guns as the solution to any concerns.

TunnelRat · February 16, 2018, 12:22 PM

I think people always equate cheap with poor quality. The reality was the folded and welded slides were done to reduce costs. They also used alloy frames rather than steel. It wasn’t a Jurassic Park, “We spared no expense”, type of situation. The same was true of the HK MP5. They used stampings wherever possible to cut down on production time and costs. It doesn’t mean they were bad firearms, but cost certainly factored into how they were made and they used manufacturing processes available to them that allowed them to reduce costs. Yet they also maintained a degree of quality.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

t4terrific · February 16, 2018, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishbed77

Pointlessly, I changed the wording in your post.

I made your post more accurate.

Lohman446 · February 16, 2018, 12:48 PM

What we are discussing though is not the cost of manufacturing (at any level). SIGs problems are not about the cost of manufacturing alone. Its that for whatever reason they have run into a flurry of having to recall for safety concerns or stop shipping after marketing campaigns touting their quality and readiness at any moment. Its disturbing if the gun is $200 or $2000. The fact that it is a SIG kind of hurts

PPGMD · February 16, 2018, 01:49 PM

Quote:

I disagree with the statement that "SIG's were and are cheap service pistols." I have found German made SIG pistols that are at least 15 years old or more to be very well made. I am a range officer for my club, and I see a lot of guns in use. Older German SIG pistols very rarely malfunction, and are generally quite accurate. I think the older SIG P22x guns deserve their strong reputation.

Note that I am not a SIG fan. I have seen lots of problems with more recently manufactured SIGs, and I am not satisfied with their quality. I also am not a fan of traditional double action autos for most purposes. So for both of these reasons, I generally recommend against SIGs when I am asked. But I still have respect for the older SIG pistols.

I didn't mean that as an insult, simply that their market is service pistol market. Just like Glock, S&W, and many other pistols that I feel also are cheap service pistols. For some reason people seem to hold SIG pistols to absurd standards, like you are getting a Korth or that $4k Sphinx pistol. You want that level of perfection out of a metal framed pistol, expect to pay 2-3 times what SIG USA is charging.

And exception of the Stainless Slide Internal Extractor and for a period of time during the late 2000 through the early 2010s, when SIG was attempting to find alternate small parts production methods so they can compete with Glock. I've seen no major issues with SIGs, I've shot many many thousands of rounds through SIGs, and at one point I was even sponsored by them to help promote the 320.

t4terrific · February 16, 2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PPGMD

I didn't mean that as an insult, simply that their market is service pistol market. Just like Glock, S&W, and many other pistols that I feel also are cheap service pistols. For some reason people seem to hold SIG pistols to absurd standards, like you are getting a Korth or that $4k Sphinx pistol. You want that level of perfection out of a metal framed pistol, expect to pay 2-3 times what SIG USA is charging.

And exception of the Stainless Slide External Extractor and for a period of time during the late 2000 through the early 2010s, when SIG was attempting to find alternate small parts production methods so they can compete with Glock. I've seen no major issues with SIGs, I've shot many many thousands of rounds through SIGs, and at one point I was even sponsored by them to help promote the 320.

Sig did “Sig” very well. They started having trouble when they started trying to do “Kimber”. They really took a beating when they tried to do “Glock”. Now that they are trying to do what seemed impossible (a 10 round micro 9), they have really stepped on their tail.

Hopefully they shake things out and put more focus on doing what they do right.

chaim · February 16, 2018, 02:25 PM

Full disclaimer before I start, I am a SIG fan. I am not a "fanboy" of any brand where they can do no wrong...The closest I come is CZ, and I've had a CZ P01 for a year and a half that while it is 100% reliable, I just haven't been able to warm to and will probably sell it very soon. I have had a SIG P229 which was one of my favorite guns (I really need another), a P226 which was OK, and a P290 and P250 which despite initial reputations have been great guns.

It seems that SIG is one of several manufacturers who leave it up to the consumer to be a beta tester for the first year or two of a new design. That would be fine if they were up front about it and offered a discount or rebate, but when you are led to believe (from the marketing) that you are getting, and you are definitely paying for, a top of the line fully tested firearm that is a problem.

Now, SIG isn't the only guilty party. Some may remember the Ruger P345 from a decade ago. If you bought one from the first 2/3 of its run you had a good chance of getting a bad one (despite this info being all over the internet, I bought one, it was a piece of crap). While I intend to eventually buy a Glock, I will never buy one in the first year or two of a new generation (luckily they know of this issue, and that many have the same idea, so they've been selling the old generation alongside the new generation for years now). Heck, I won't buy any gun in its first year or two of a new design (usually I am the same with cars, but I did make a recent exception and been OK).

So, anyone saying that this is proof of a total downfall at SIG is overplaying it. They make good guns, and the P365 will be a good gun in a year or two. My P250 and P290RS are great guns that many people overlook (enough that they eventually were discontinued) due to the early issues. Obviously, the old non-polymer designs are terrific. Others do the same as well. However, anyone that says that SIG is fine, no problem, well, they either need to stop this now quite long-running issue or they need to be upfront that the 1st gen of a model is a beta test and price accordingly.

PPGMD · February 16, 2018, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Sig did “Sig” very well. They started having trouble when they started trying to do “Kimber”. They really took a beating when they tried to do “Glock”. Now that they are trying to do what seemed impossible (a 10 round micro 9), they have really stepped on their tail.

Hopefully they shake things out and put more focus on doing what they do right.

If you are talking about the P250 that is all on SIG Germany, SIG USA had no hand in that. In fact the entire modularity of the gun is designed for German gun laws, as some licenses limit the number of serialized guns you can own.

I've shot over 30,000 rounds through the P320, it is a fine pistol. The drop safety issue isn't an angle that is commonly tested for. They discovered the issue and had a fix out in a few months. About the only thing I can fault them for is I wish it was a more widespread recall rather than the euphemism that they are using.

As for the 365, I don't see it as a big deal. And this is coming from someone that has no intention of buying one, I am happy with my current carry guns, which are mostly Glocks.

Bartholomew Roberts · February 16, 2018, 03:29 PM

I think TunnelRat and WVSig hit the high points already. I’d still buy a SIG; but the whole shameless marketing blather AFTER they screwed up really puts me off them as a company.

It reminds me of the way H&K used to respond to customer service inquiries... “Nein! Unmoglich! How did you improperly abuse our wanderwaffen to even create that perception?”

SIG recently is just an upbeat, insane optimistic version of this (in tune with the marketing). Your gun fires when dropped. “I know, isn’t that trigger amazing? How about a voluntary upgrade?”

February 15, 2018, 04:27 PM	#26
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	Why does this surprise anyone. Name the last new Sig design that shipped and did not have a problem once it was in the hands of paying beta testers? 556? P250? GSR 1911? P320? P238? MPX? Honestly the last gun they brought to market that ran perfectly right off the bat was the P229 which was really just a P228, which is really just a shortened P226, in 40 S&W. IIRC they were introduced when Sig was still a German company. Always remember WVSig rule: NEVER and I MEAN NEVER buy a new Sig in the first year of its production. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

February 15, 2018, 06:31 PM	#30
presspics Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 343	It's not just SIG..Hell, Glock has been making the same gun for 30+ years and they still have problems. S&W's have problems, Colt still can't make a 100 year old gun correctly..Crap happens.. __________________ "Quid Clarius Astris"

February 15, 2018, 07:05 PM	#32
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,213	I would argue that a number of those companies you mentioned have QC issues that I could attribute to occasional defects. This isn't just a few defects, this is a failure to test a design fully before release to the public and arguably a failed manufacturing process. I've gone on here before about how I have (or these days had) friends that worked at the factory over years. The turnover at SIG is quite high. From what I've been told, and obviously there's a big caveat with hearsay, SIG is one of the biggest CNC manufacturers of parts around. It just happens that they use those parts to make firearms. If you think SIG and you think old school craftsmanship, you're wrong. I had friends doing runs of thousands of parts in a given week. Basically they ran the machines, machines produced parts, and on they went. Hand-fitting or whatnot isn't a factor, it's about using CNC to produce parts as efficiently as possible. For my friends it was a never ending race of producing more and more parts. There would be entire batches that would be bad and thousands of parts would get trashed because, as best as I can tell, their testing is on very large batches and they don't seem to catch issues early enough. These same employees complained of long hours (essentially mandatory OT), Christmas bonuses being cut to have a better quarter, and pay that while decent wasn't so great that basically every place they applied to after paid more money despite being much smaller shops. Does this make SIG the devil? No, and frankly I imagine they operate just like any number of other companies out there. But that's the point. This notion of a cut of quality above the rest is to me no longer valid. I take courses at SIG Sauer Academy. I take typically 4-6 a year. I have seen plenty of failures of SIG products, both from loaners and from attendees who, surprise surprise, tend to buy SIG products. I don't see anything that makes me think, "Damn that's impressive." I'm not calling it junk, I'm calling it average and their marketing is based around being anything but average. None of this makes me thrilled. I don't hate SIG. I've owned over a dozen SIG pistols, I still have two, and despite being a bit backwoods I'm proud to be from NH. However, SIG isn't really a source of pride for me anymore. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

February 16, 2018, 12:22 PM	#43
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,213	Sig Suspends Shipping on P365 I think people always equate cheap with poor quality. The reality was the folded and welded slides were done to reduce costs. They also used alloy frames rather than steel. It wasn’t a Jurassic Park, “We spared no expense”, type of situation. The same was true of the HK MP5. They used stampings wherever possible to cut down on production time and costs. It doesn’t mean they were bad firearms, but cost certainly factored into how they were made and they used manufacturing processes available to them that allowed them to reduce costs. Yet they also maintained a degree of quality. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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February 15, 2018, 06:53 PM	#31
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	Wow! SIG haters. I recently got my first SIG. It is a well built inside and out. Tight and accurate, but at the same time 100.000% reliable. Also 100% plastic free. If SIG is a poor builder, what is Ruger and S&W? I think, I can cut them some slack on bugs with a new design. Now, anyone who is averse to issues with new guns, should try and exercise a little restraint and wait a while. If you just hate SIG, ok, (dont even own the gun in question) here is your opportunity. I though it was just the baggy pants youth who lack patience. But, I been thinking recently. Yes, it hurts! Way back, as far as I can remember, there been new gun announcement and buyers waiting for the first one they can get. Worse than that, if not complaining about inevitable new design bugs, they are livid with ANGER over any delay between announcement and release. To soon, too late, ....

February 15, 2018, 07:14 PM	#33
Mk VII Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2000 Location: England Posts: 455	One of our auto manufacturers here used to have an internal slogan "The customer is our final inspector", and it was true, they did leave final inspection to the customer.

February 16, 2018, 05:29 AM	#37
Kilrb Member Join Date: September 20, 2017 Posts: 25	You see this everywhere, I work in customer service in a large industry and seen this get worse over the years. It is something that seems acceptable now. Don't get what is wrong with slowing up and sending out quality.

February 16, 2018, 11:30 AM	#42
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,884	Well, if you live in southern AL near Mobile, an Armslist seller has a "P6"/ Sig 225 for $550 (No shipping). Not joking, as so many people seem now to look back to the 100% German guns as the solution to any concerns.

February 16, 2018, 12:48 PM	#45
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	What we are discussing though is not the cost of manufacturing (at any level). SIGs problems are not about the cost of manufacturing alone. Its that for whatever reason they have run into a flurry of having to recall for safety concerns or stop shipping after marketing campaigns touting their quality and readiness at any moment. Its disturbing if the gun is $200 or $2000. The fact that it is a SIG kind of hurts

February 16, 2018, 02:25 PM	#48
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	Full disclaimer before I start, I am a SIG fan. I am not a "fanboy" of any brand where they can do no wrong...The closest I come is CZ, and I've had a CZ P01 for a year and a half that while it is 100% reliable, I just haven't been able to warm to and will probably sell it very soon. I have had a SIG P229 which was one of my favorite guns (I really need another), a P226 which was OK, and a P290 and P250 which despite initial reputations have been great guns. It seems that SIG is one of several manufacturers who leave it up to the consumer to be a beta tester for the first year or two of a new design. That would be fine if they were up front about it and offered a discount or rebate, but when you are led to believe (from the marketing) that you are getting, and you are definitely paying for, a top of the line fully tested firearm that is a problem. Now, SIG isn't the only guilty party. Some may remember the Ruger P345 from a decade ago. If you bought one from the first 2/3 of its run you had a good chance of getting a bad one (despite this info being all over the internet, I bought one, it was a piece of crap). While I intend to eventually buy a Glock, I will never buy one in the first year or two of a new generation (luckily they know of this issue, and that many have the same idea, so they've been selling the old generation alongside the new generation for years now). Heck, I won't buy any gun in its first year or two of a new design (usually I am the same with cars, but I did make a recent exception and been OK). So, anyone saying that this is proof of a total downfall at SIG is overplaying it. They make good guns, and the P365 will be a good gun in a year or two. My P250 and P290RS are great guns that many people overlook (enough that they eventually were discontinued) due to the early issues. Obviously, the old non-polymer designs are terrific. Others do the same as well. However, anyone that says that SIG is fine, no problem, well, they either need to stop this now quite long-running issue or they need to be upfront that the 1st gen of a model is a beta test and price accordingly.

February 16, 2018, 03:29 PM	#50
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	I think TunnelRat and WVSig hit the high points already. I’d still buy a SIG; but the whole shameless marketing blather AFTER they screwed up really puts me off them as a company. It reminds me of the way H&K used to respond to customer service inquiries... “Nein! Unmoglich! How did you improperly abuse our wanderwaffen to even create that perception?” SIG recently is just an upbeat, insane optimistic version of this (in tune with the marketing). Your gun fires when dropped. “I know, isn’t that trigger amazing? How about a voluntary upgrade?”