Reloading 223 suggestions - Page 2

Charlie98 · July 18, 2018, 09:14 PM

If a powder charge isn't efficient with the barrel length and bullet weight... sometimes a powder can get 'dirty'... leaving crap in the barrel. There are a bunch of different reasons why a powder can burn dirty, and it's hard to tell until you just happen upon that particular circumstance in your loads. Pistol powders in particular do this... some powders don't do well under lighter bullets, etc.

You also have to be aware of military brass and commercial brass... military brass is thicker, meaning less internal space. The same/same bullet/powder charge... one in commercial brass, one in military brass... the military brass will typically develop higher pressure, so it pays to know your brass.

HiBC · July 20, 2018, 07:39 AM

The point about thick military brass can be true,and it is likely in .308.

With 5.56 and USA manufactured military ammo,such as Lake City and Winchester,I'm pretty sure thick brass is not an issue.

Though,with international brass,who knows?

Generally,with the powders I use there is little to no case volume to spare with 5.56

If case walls were thicker,my powder would be up in the neck.

With adirect impingement AR ,a clean burning vs dirty powder will show up the bolt ,bolt carrier,rings,etc as either "not too bad" or crunchy black stuff.

Some will remain in the gas tube.

Some ball powders are rather nasty. It takes serious deterrent to slow the burn on the fine powder .

A powder in the "slow" range may be dirtier.

That part is less of a concern with a bolt rifle

ninosdemente · July 20, 2018, 12:59 PM

Thanks again guys. Will probably end up going with the Varget as it seems to be mentioned more.

Being new to reloading, I will for the meantime go with the 60gr VMAX. Just to get a feel for it. Then will look into the heavier ones and try different manufacturers.

Now a few times some mentioned CCI 450 instead of CCI 400. Why use 450 instead of 400?

HiBC · July 20, 2018, 09:28 PM

That will work,and I'm splitting hairs. Benchmark is same family as Varget,but a shade quicker. IMO,it gives exceptional performance with the Nosler 60 gr Varmint Ballistic tip.

I spent a fair amount of range time with a chrono fiddling with this stuff.

With a 75 gr Honady HPBT, 77 gr MKs,etc,IMO, RE-15 is hard to beat.Better,IMO,than Varget.
With a 69 gr bullet,Varget is hard to beat.

If you are jumping to a 60 gr bullet,I'd buy Benchmark.(And other powders come into play)

55 gr bullets,one of the classic "bests"is H-335.

Folks get great results with other powders,those are not the only choices.

I'm just sharing the sweet spots as I found them.They will work.

hdwhit · July 21, 2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

ninosdemente asked:
Would 60gr be fine? What other good/better options are there?

A question I have not seen asked and answered here is what distances are you planning on shooting?

And what results are you looking for?

If you're shooting at a range where the farthest target is 100 yards out and all you care to do is punch paper plates, then your needs are vastly different from someone who is going to reach out to 300 yards and aspires to having five shots and only one hole.

I am not, now will I ever be, part of the "one hole" crowd. Most of my shooting is done at ranges of 100 yards or less. And essentially all of it is done offhand with no bench, bags or rest for support. For casual shooting under those conditions, I have found the much aligned 55 grain FMJ boattail that are available for as little as about 6 cents each to be more than adequate. I have found them quite satisfactory with IMR-4064 at loads close to the Starting Load.

For hunting and self-defense use, I long ago developed a load around the Hornady 60 grain Spire Point bullets (they make both Hollow and Soft Point) loaded above IMR-4198, IMR-3031, Winchester 748 or, still in development, Benchmark. It works very well on the deer in northern Arkansas and would presumably be just as effective on a person although I hope to never be in a situation where I have to find out.

std7mag · July 21, 2018, 03:50 PM

His home range is, I believe, 200 yards.

ninosdemente · July 21, 2018, 06:49 PM

Yes, as std7mag said... the two ranges near me go up to 200yds which I do plan on shooting that far and only paper targets.

ninosdemente · July 21, 2018, 07:05 PM

To be honest as far as results expectations... I am just trying to learn as I go. I am first generation gun enthusiast/owner so basically all you guys, this forum, youtube and google are my teachers. As well as other forums, but mostly here. LOl. Plus a couple of people have been kind enough to answer questions I have that kinda may seem embarrassing for me to ask. But won't learn if I don't go to range either.

I do try to read threads that pertain to me even those that may not pertain to me... and try and soak up information that may be good to know or just to know.

This may seem dumb, but not sure what to expect/look for as far as results when I do load .223. I know part will depend on me when behind the trigger, and I know I have more practicing to go. I have even gone online and looked up "what to expect from reloading" and other phrases.

ninosdemente · July 21, 2018, 07:09 PM

Well...

A few people I spoke with vaguely at different stores in the past, mentioned that when your groups get closer and closer, that is an indication of what your gun likes. So that is one result I am looking for.

ninosdemente · July 21, 2018, 09:16 PM

At the store there was no CCI 400. Only CCI 450, but there was a CCI BR-4 for small rifle. I went to CCI site and it says it bench rest for getting more accurate results. Would these work or what would be best application for these?

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...imer_chart.htm

Ifishsum · July 22, 2018, 04:29 PM

BR-4s work very well, I use them quite a bit but I can't honestly say I've done extensive accuracy testing against the standard 400s. Since most of my .223 shooting is with the AR platform and often with ball powder so I generally only keep 450s and BR-4s because they have a thicker cup - I feel they also reduce risk for a slamfire when single loading. Most all of my small rifle loads are developed with one or the other since that's what I tend to have around.

BWM · July 22, 2018, 07:11 PM

I like Accurate 2200 and 2230 both are very good powder. I like 62 64 gr bullets and Sierra 69 gr BTHPM they have shoot one hole with 4 shots at 100 yard the 62 64 will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards in my AR,S Your Savage can do the same if you reload your own ammo. It takes time to build a accurate load lot of range time. GOOD LUCK

Marco Califo · July 22, 2018, 07:21 PM

Use CCI 450's. Not 400's. The 400's pierce easily at warm pressures. CCI #41 are milspec for the commercial market.
My Savage Axis in 1:9 will stabilize Hornady 75 gr HPBT, not the Amax (haven't tried it). I have Savage 10 in 223 but I do not load those 75 HPBT for that gun because I cannot load long (they won't chamber; or if I force them to, the bullet gets set back).
Yes, it will stabilize the Barnes 70 gr all copper. There is a stability calculator available free that will help you see this on paper before buying the bullets and confirming it.
http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/...culators.shtml
I suggest you check your chamber length/throat by making a dummy cartridge, no crimp, just barely start the bullet. Load it and close the bolt (some effort will be needed). You just measured your max COAL, remove the cartridge, measure it on calipers and write it down. I have two Savages in 223: one wont close on anything longer than 2.26", the other will take longer 2.36". The longer length is useful with the heavy longer bullets. But the ammo wont be interchangeable.
I have shot 40 to 75 gr bullets in 224 with 1:9 twist.

ninosdemente · July 24, 2018, 03:13 PM

Thanks guys for the help.

BWM, good thing I do have time for loading, unfortunately don't have very much time for the range as much as I would like to.

I did end up getting the Varget but they didn't have Benchmark and did get both CCI 450 and CCI BR4. Since I have 4064, guess will give it a try as well. When I run out of the 60gr V Max will move up to 69gr... just still deciding what manufacturer to go with.

Jeffm004 · July 24, 2018, 08:14 PM

My friend just returned from nationals shooting a 200 at 200 with a Hornady 75 eld and 4064. Bolt gun, not mag length but still pretty awesome. FWIW, even after that he is moving to Varget and a bigger bullet for longer than 200. His attention to ammo detail, is .... obsessive. It does help.

thallub · July 24, 2018, 08:27 PM

In 1968 i began reloading .223/5.56mm for my bolt action rifles. Tried all the powders suitable for that round that were available at that time. The powder i chose was IMR 3031: i continue to use that powder almost exclusively with bullets to 55 grains. Seldom reload bullets heavier than 55 grains and don't reload for my AR-15 rifles or Steyr AUG.

IMR 3031 has worked extremely well for me.

hounddawg · July 24, 2018, 09:24 PM

When you go to the 69's try the SMK's and the Nosler CC's. They performed pretty much equally in my rifles both bolt and gas gun.

HiBC · July 25, 2018, 01:31 PM

IMO,Hounddawg is giving good advice.Those are the 69's I would use.

I went to a 1 in 8 twist from a 1 in 9. These days I like the 75 gr Hornady HPBT.It has a real good BC and they are reasonably priced.

Some say the 75's are right on the edge of stabilizing in a 1 in 9.

With a long barreled bolt gun you might get the velocity and revs up enough to make it work.That bullet flies pretty good.
My chrono said RE-15 gave more velocity than I could get with Varget.

It beat the 4895's,too.I never tried 4064.Another powder I have not tried that may be promising is CFE 223.

July 18, 2018, 09:14 PM	#26
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	If a powder charge isn't efficient with the barrel length and bullet weight... sometimes a powder can get 'dirty'... leaving crap in the barrel. There are a bunch of different reasons why a powder can burn dirty, and it's hard to tell until you just happen upon that particular circumstance in your loads. Pistol powders in particular do this... some powders don't do well under lighter bullets, etc. You also have to be aware of military brass and commercial brass... military brass is thicker, meaning less internal space. The same/same bullet/powder charge... one in commercial brass, one in military brass... the military brass will typically develop higher pressure, so it pays to know your brass. __________________ _______________ "I have this pistol pointed at your heart!" "That is my least vulnerable spot."

July 20, 2018, 07:39 AM	#27
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	The point about thick military brass can be true,and it is likely in .308. With 5.56 and USA manufactured military ammo,such as Lake City and Winchester,I'm pretty sure thick brass is not an issue. Though,with international brass,who knows? Generally,with the powders I use there is little to no case volume to spare with 5.56 If case walls were thicker,my powder would be up in the neck. With adirect impingement AR ,a clean burning vs dirty powder will show up the bolt ,bolt carrier,rings,etc as either "not too bad" or crunchy black stuff. Some will remain in the gas tube. Some ball powders are rather nasty. It takes serious deterrent to slow the burn on the fine powder . A powder in the "slow" range may be dirtier. That part is less of a concern with a bolt rifle Last edited by HiBC; July 20, 2018 at 07:54 AM.

July 20, 2018, 09:28 PM	#29
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	That will work,and I'm splitting hairs. Benchmark is same family as Varget,but a shade quicker. IMO,it gives exceptional performance with the Nosler 60 gr Varmint Ballistic tip. I spent a fair amount of range time with a chrono fiddling with this stuff. With a 75 gr Honady HPBT, 77 gr MKs,etc,IMO, RE-15 is hard to beat.Better,IMO,than Varget. With a 69 gr bullet,Varget is hard to beat. If you are jumping to a 60 gr bullet,I'd buy Benchmark.(And other powders come into play) 55 gr bullets,one of the classic "bests"is H-335. Folks get great results with other powders,those are not the only choices. I'm just sharing the sweet spots as I found them.They will work. Last edited by HiBC; July 20, 2018 at 09:36 PM.

July 21, 2018, 03:50 PM	#31
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	His home range is, I believe, 200 yards. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

July 22, 2018, 07:11 PM	#37
BWM Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2013 Location: SW IN Posts: 438	I like Accurate 2200 and 2230 both are very good powder. I like 62 64 gr bullets and Sierra 69 gr BTHPM they have shoot one hole with 4 shots at 100 yard the 62 64 will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards in my AR,S Your Savage can do the same if you reload your own ammo. It takes time to build a accurate load lot of range time. GOOD LUCK __________________ Man that likes guns. Navy. USS Ponchatoula AO 148 USS Vesuvius AE 15

July 20, 2018, 12:59 PM	#28
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Thanks again guys. Will probably end up going with the Varget as it seems to be mentioned more. Being new to reloading, I will for the meantime go with the 60gr VMAX. Just to get a feel for it. Then will look into the heavier ones and try different manufacturers. Now a few times some mentioned CCI 450 instead of CCI 400. Why use 450 instead of 400?

July 21, 2018, 06:49 PM	#32
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Yes, as std7mag said... the two ranges near me go up to 200yds which I do plan on shooting that far and only paper targets.

July 21, 2018, 07:05 PM	#33
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	To be honest as far as results expectations... I am just trying to learn as I go. I am first generation gun enthusiast/owner so basically all you guys, this forum, youtube and google are my teachers. As well as other forums, but mostly here. LOl. Plus a couple of people have been kind enough to answer questions I have that kinda may seem embarrassing for me to ask. But won't learn if I don't go to range either. I do try to read threads that pertain to me even those that may not pertain to me... and try and soak up information that may be good to know or just to know. This may seem dumb, but not sure what to expect/look for as far as results when I do load .223. I know part will depend on me when behind the trigger, and I know I have more practicing to go. I have even gone online and looked up "what to expect from reloading" and other phrases.

July 21, 2018, 07:09 PM	#34
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Well... A few people I spoke with vaguely at different stores in the past, mentioned that when your groups get closer and closer, that is an indication of what your gun likes. So that is one result I am looking for.

July 21, 2018, 09:16 PM	#35
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	At the store there was no CCI 400. Only CCI 450, but there was a CCI BR-4 for small rifle. I went to CCI site and it says it bench rest for getting more accurate results. Would these work or what would be best application for these? http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...imer_chart.htm

July 22, 2018, 04:29 PM	#36
Ifishsum Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,033	BR-4s work very well, I use them quite a bit but I can't honestly say I've done extensive accuracy testing against the standard 400s. Since most of my .223 shooting is with the AR platform and often with ball powder so I generally only keep 450s and BR-4s because they have a thicker cup - I feel they also reduce risk for a slamfire when single loading. Most all of my small rifle loads are developed with one or the other since that's what I tend to have around.

July 22, 2018, 07:21 PM	#38
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Use CCI 450's. Not 400's. The 400's pierce easily at warm pressures. CCI #41 are milspec for the commercial market. My Savage Axis in 1:9 will stabilize Hornady 75 gr HPBT, not the Amax (haven't tried it). I have Savage 10 in 223 but I do not load those 75 HPBT for that gun because I cannot load long (they won't chamber; or if I force them to, the bullet gets set back). Yes, it will stabilize the Barnes 70 gr all copper. There is a stability calculator available free that will help you see this on paper before buying the bullets and confirming it. http://jbmballistics.com/ballistics/...culators.shtml I suggest you check your chamber length/throat by making a dummy cartridge, no crimp, just barely start the bullet. Load it and close the bolt (some effort will be needed). You just measured your max COAL, remove the cartridge, measure it on calipers and write it down. I have two Savages in 223: one wont close on anything longer than 2.26", the other will take longer 2.36". The longer length is useful with the heavy longer bullets. But the ammo wont be interchangeable. I have shot 40 to 75 gr bullets in 224 with 1:9 twist. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; July 25, 2018 at 10:29 PM. Reason: Typo/spelling

July 24, 2018, 03:13 PM	#39
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Thanks guys for the help. BWM, good thing I do have time for loading, unfortunately don't have very much time for the range as much as I would like to. I did end up getting the Varget but they didn't have Benchmark and did get both CCI 450 and CCI BR4. Since I have 4064, guess will give it a try as well. When I run out of the 60gr V Max will move up to 69gr... just still deciding what manufacturer to go with.

July 24, 2018, 08:14 PM	#40
Jeffm004 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2013 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 255	My friend just returned from nationals shooting a 200 at 200 with a Hornady 75 eld and 4064. Bolt gun, not mag length but still pretty awesome. FWIW, even after that he is moving to Varget and a bigger bullet for longer than 200. His attention to ammo detail, is .... obsessive. It does help.

July 24, 2018, 08:27 PM	#41
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	In 1968 i began reloading .223/5.56mm for my bolt action rifles. Tried all the powders suitable for that round that were available at that time. The powder i chose was IMR 3031: i continue to use that powder almost exclusively with bullets to 55 grains. Seldom reload bullets heavier than 55 grains and don't reload for my AR-15 rifles or Steyr AUG. IMR 3031 has worked extremely well for me.

July 24, 2018, 09:24 PM	#42
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	When you go to the 69's try the SMK's and the Nosler CC's. They performed pretty much equally in my rifles both bolt and gas gun. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; July 24, 2018 at 09:29 PM.

July 25, 2018, 01:31 PM	#43
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	IMO,Hounddawg is giving good advice.Those are the 69's I would use. I went to a 1 in 8 twist from a 1 in 9. These days I like the 75 gr Hornady HPBT.It has a real good BC and they are reasonably priced. Some say the 75's are right on the edge of stabilizing in a 1 in 9. With a long barreled bolt gun you might get the velocity and revs up enough to make it work.That bullet flies pretty good. My chrono said RE-15 gave more velocity than I could get with Varget. It beat the 4895's,too.I never tried 4064.Another powder I have not tried that may be promising is CFE 223.