Webley 455 "shaved" cylinder - Page 2

**Mike Irwin** · June 2, 2018, 06:37 AM

Imported Webley and Enfield revolvers in .380 Revolver were quite the different animal.

Again, there wasn't much ammunition available surplus from Britain, for the reasons I mentioned, but .38 S&W was, after WW II, still very commonly available and S&W was still chambering revolvers for the round, and would for another 20 to 30 years.

"Or, looking at it another way, he took off just enough metal to get it to work, and no more. I would point out that its quite possible the point was to get it to work with ACP brass and a supplied clip.
Possibly, the idea of having it work with 45AR brass wasn't even considered. Auto Rim brass isn't exactly common, either. And it does still fire .455 ammo."

I simply can't fathom why it won't work with AR brass, given the design purpose and specifications. But, whasevah.

**44 AMP** · June 3, 2018, 11:09 PM

Quote:

I simply can't fathom why it won't work with AR brass, given the design purpose and specifications. But, whasevah.

It doesn't work with AR brass because not quite enough metal was removed from the cylinder to allow it. The gun will close with AR brass in the chambers, but they are tight against the recoil shield, and won't allow the cylinder to turn.

I have no idea who did the work, or when, of course, but if there is one, there could be others.

I have been able to look at other shaved Webleys, and if you can put them side by side, its easy to see the difference, due to the numbers on the cylinders.

In other shaved guns, numbers like 3, 6, and 8 on the cylinder have their bottoms clipped off, on my gun only the outside edge of the bottom curve is clipped off.

Perhaps the guy who did the work simply set his cutting tool slightly wrong...perhaps every Webley he did is like that, perhaps, only the one I've got. No way to know.

**Mike Irwin** · June 4, 2018, 06:47 AM

Which, given the purpose for the existence of the .45 Auto Rim in the first place makes no sense.

If it doesn't work with the ARs, it shouldn't work with clipped .45 ACP ammo, either, because the the AR was designed to emulate the headspace created by use of .45 ACP ammo in clips

rock185 · June 20, 2018, 01:16 AM

cj, My Mk VI is "shaved"/rear of cylinder machined, and functions fine with both moon clips with ACP brass, and with Auto Rim Brass. I would not attempt to shoot .455 Webley ammo in my gun due to the grossly excessive headspace my gun would have with the original ammo....ymmv

Judging from some informal measuring I've done, it appears the cylinder throats and groove diameter of my example are a lot tighter than .455". Closer to .450". Must be why .451" and .452" bullets work so well in my old (1918) gun

I wasn't sure if the old gun would even stay on the paper at 15 yards, but was pleasantly surprised

RickB · June 20, 2018, 06:59 PM

My S&W HE2 has had a M1917 cylinder installed in lieu of shaving.
The cylinder will accept ACP cases loaded with 260gr., .456" bullets, and the gun is reasonably accurate with that bullet.
It will just barely stay on a paper plate at 10yds shooting .45 hardball.

I've read Webleys do not have such oversized bores as the S&Ws, but don't know.
I'd become all excited when I'd discovered .45 Schofield cases chambering perfectly in my Webley Mk. I, but the rims are just thick enough to rub on the standing breech.

Model12Win · June 22, 2018, 01:28 PM

The .455 Webley was considered a devastating manstopper. It would pick a man up off his feet and knock him down with authority. The later .38 Webley's were a peashooter by comparison, barely more effective than a .22.

**44 AMP** · June 23, 2018, 02:19 PM

The original .455 was loaded with soft lead bullets. There was for a time, a "H" mantle bullet which was reported to be a devastating stopper.

Later FMJ slugs, not so much, but still a .45, and better than the .38 that replaced it. The British .38/200 is/was a .38S&W loaded with a 200gr bullet (and later a lighter FMJ to comply with the Hague accords), moving at about the speed of an arthritic turtle. Ok, maybe a healthy tortoise...

Not considered a good manstopper in the US, and not well thought of by the line troops who had to use it.

Since Europeans essentially consider war a sporting event (and personal self protection is simply never even considered), the governments has no trouble agreeing to ban things that actually worked effectively.

The .455 Webley worked tolerably well in its military role, and reasonably well in the role of personal self defense, so of course, it had to be replaced by progressive small caliber advocates. 9mm was enough for the Germans, so surely .38 would be enough for the British...

The "barbarous colonials" in the US held on to our .45 because it worked well in both roles. it was only a political decision in the 50s that caused the replacement of the .45 with the 9mm in the 80s.

There are some, still, who think that was a poor decision.

**Mike Irwin** · June 25, 2018, 08:31 AM

"It would pick a man up off his feet and knock him down with authority."

Uhm... no.

Physics is the law.

It must be obeyed.

Jim Watson · June 25, 2018, 09:03 AM

There was a British theory on "stopping power" that the revolver bullet should be tuned to the resonant frequency of the human chest wall. A relatively slow heavy bullet was the best match and would beat that Fuzzy Wuzzy like a drum. The Manstopper bullets of wadcutter or hollow wadcutter configuration probably hurt even more.

June 2, 2018, 06:37 AM	#26
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Imported Webley and Enfield revolvers in .380 Revolver were quite the different animal. Again, there wasn't much ammunition available surplus from Britain, for the reasons I mentioned, but .38 S&W was, after WW II, still very commonly available and S&W was still chambering revolvers for the round, and would for another 20 to 30 years. "Or, looking at it another way, he took off just enough metal to get it to work, and no more. I would point out that its quite possible the point was to get it to work with ACP brass and a supplied clip. Possibly, the idea of having it work with 45AR brass wasn't even considered. Auto Rim brass isn't exactly common, either. And it does still fire .455 ammo." I simply can't fathom why it won't work with AR brass, given the design purpose and specifications. But, whasevah. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 4, 2018, 06:47 AM	#28
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Which, given the purpose for the existence of the .45 Auto Rim in the first place makes no sense. If it doesn't work with the ARs, it shouldn't work with clipped .45 ACP ammo, either, because the the AR was designed to emulate the headspace created by use of .45 ACP ammo in clips __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 20, 2018, 06:59 PM	#30
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,517	My S&W HE2 has had a M1917 cylinder installed in lieu of shaving. The cylinder will accept ACP cases loaded with 260gr., .456" bullets, and the gun is reasonably accurate with that bullet. It will just barely stay on a paper plate at 10yds shooting .45 hardball. I've read Webleys do not have such oversized bores as the S&Ws, but don't know. I'd become all excited when I'd discovered .45 Schofield cases chambering perfectly in my Webley Mk. I, but the rims are just thick enough to rub on the standing breech. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

June 23, 2018, 02:19 PM	#32
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,791	The original .455 was loaded with soft lead bullets. There was for a time, a "H" mantle bullet which was reported to be a devastating stopper. Later FMJ slugs, not so much, but still a .45, and better than the .38 that replaced it. The British .38/200 is/was a .38S&W loaded with a 200gr bullet (and later a lighter FMJ to comply with the Hague accords), moving at about the speed of an arthritic turtle. Ok, maybe a healthy tortoise... Not considered a good manstopper in the US, and not well thought of by the line troops who had to use it. Since Europeans essentially consider war a sporting event (and personal self protection is simply never even considered), the governments has no trouble agreeing to ban things that actually worked effectively. The .455 Webley worked tolerably well in its military role, and reasonably well in the role of personal self defense, so of course, it had to be replaced by progressive small caliber advocates. 9mm was enough for the Germans, so surely .38 would be enough for the British... The "barbarous colonials" in the US held on to our .45 because it worked well in both roles. it was only a political decision in the 50s that caused the replacement of the .45 with the 9mm in the 80s. There are some, still, who think that was a poor decision. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 25, 2018, 08:31 AM	#33
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"It would pick a man up off his feet and knock him down with authority." Uhm... no. Physics is the law. It must be obeyed. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 22, 2018, 01:28 PM	#31
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	The .455 Webley was considered a devastating manstopper. It would pick a man up off his feet and knock him down with authority. The later .38 Webley's were a peashooter by comparison, barely more effective than a .22.

June 25, 2018, 09:03 AM	#34
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,529	There was a British theory on "stopping power" that the revolver bullet should be tuned to the resonant frequency of the human chest wall. A relatively slow heavy bullet was the best match and would beat that Fuzzy Wuzzy like a drum. The Manstopper bullets of wadcutter or hollow wadcutter configuration probably hurt even more.

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