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Old November 6, 2013, 08:27 PM   #1
charlesc
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Instructor said this

I took a class as recommended. The instructor said many things of which I have several questions (which I will ask later) but at present time I am asking only about this:

1. Does not recommend CZs'

2. Recommends Smith & Wesson Revolvers over Ruger Revolvers.

what should I make of this?
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:33 PM   #2
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"CZ" covers a lot of guns from the 1920's to today. I suspect he may have had problems with one model, but I find it hard to believe all would be bad, even if I didn't know they are not.

As to S&W over Ruger in revolvers, that would be my preference, too, because the S&W guns are simply more refined and easier to use. That being said, Ruger's DA revolvers (I assume he was not referring to SA revolvers if he was making a comparison to S&W products), while rugged, strong, and reliable, do not have (IMHO) the smoothness and handling of a good S&W.

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Old November 6, 2013, 08:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
what should I make of this?
Here's my take on ANY instructor:



Unless (and maybe even if- his reasons and reasoning my not match yours) he can give good reasons to any "why" question you give him, then it's just his unsubstantiated opinion .... and may or may not be worth what you paid for it.


Do your own Homework .....

Question with Boldness .....
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:37 PM   #4
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I don't know James but I went to a store today and Ruger felt good unlike Smith and Wesson which seemed 'malnourished/underfed' for lack of a proper word. But then I am only beginner beginner.

As for CZ I asked him about CZ 75 BD full size gun. He recommends Smith and Wesson MP 9mm over it.

Jimbob86 I like this - TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
I don't know James but I went to a store today and Ruger felt good unlike Smith and Wesson which seemed 'malnourished/underfed' for lack of a proper word. But then I am only beginner beginner.
There is good reason for that too. S&W's are made from forged steel, Ruger's are made from cast steel. Since forged steel is stronger than cast steel, Ruger needs to implement more of it into their guns to get them to be the same strength as a smaller forged S&W. For a comparison, the Ruger Gp100 is larger than a S&W 686, but that does not make it any stronger.

With that said I would not hesitate to own either. Both Ruger and S&W make quality products.
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:45 PM   #6
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Simply the instructor's recommendations, or opinion. I wouldn't put more into it than I would give any other opinion. I agree with the other comments. Do your own research and maybe ask "why" those recommendations were made and keep asking why after the first response.

Personally, I might choose a S&W over a Ruger, all thing being equal, but if I was looking for a new gun at a value price, I might choose Ruger over Smith and Wesson.

CZ might not always have the same finish as some weapons, but they also make some that are. Regardless of the finish, there are people who would argue they are very reliable and accurate.

Don't give my opinion any more weight though than others. Research and decide for yourself.
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:48 PM   #7
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And here we see my principle in action:

Quote:
his reasons and reasoning my not match yours
with the very experienced James K giving a perfectly reasonable explanation why he likes the Smiths over the Rugers:

Quote:
That being said, Ruger's DA revolvers, (........) while rugged, strong, and reliable, do not have (IMHO) the smoothness and handling of a good S&W.
and your reasoning:

Quote:
Ruger felt good unlike Smith and Wesson which seemed 'malnourished/underfed' for lack of a proper word. But then I am only beginner beginner.
"Handling" is a very subjective thing, and only you know what feels right.

FWIW, I think you both are wrong/misguided/whatever: COLT DA Revolvers have the best triggers, fit and finish, and handling characteristics, and they don't turn the wrong way, either!

Sadly, they are not made any more, and repair parts are ...... a problem.
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:58 PM   #8
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Colt DA triggers stack and so do Rugers (the LCR excepted).

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Old November 6, 2013, 09:00 PM   #9
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I looked for first time at you tube videos about guns and there is a 'grandfather looking' nice guy by name of Hickock45 who seems very intelligent and knowing of firearms and he seems to think CZ is a pretty good gun and so are Ruger revolvers.
Now should I take his word over my instructor's words?

Edit -What is meaning of 'stacking' James K?
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Here's my take on ANY instructor:



Unless (and maybe even if- his reasons and reasoning my not match yours) he can give good reasons to any "why" question you give him, then it's just his unsubstantiated opinion .... and may or may not be worth what you paid for it.


Do your own Homework .....

Question with Boldness .....
jimbob nailed it.

When you're in a class and the instructor says something that doesn't seem right to you, ASK! Don't just sit there like a lump, absorbing everything he or she throws at you. Be an active part of the learning process. Listen thoughtfully, ask about anything you don't understand or don't agree with or aren't sure about. Don't be a jerk, but don't take everything on faith either.

If it's that guy's opinion you want to understand, you should be asking that guy -- not us.

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Old November 6, 2013, 09:04 PM   #11
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It is his opinion, yours and mine may differ as well. Keep in mind that just because he is an instructor, that doesn't mean his preference in guns is more valid than yours.

Personally, I prefer Smith & Wesson revolvers over Ruger based on how they feel and shoot. That said, Ruger makes fine reliable guns, I just prefer Smith.

Don't buy a gun because someone suggests it, buy the one that you like and fits your hand the best.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:09 PM   #12
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charlesc,
My handgun is a CZ 75 BD full size. I love it. Recoil and muzzle flip is very low and it's really just a pleasure to shoot. If I had to, I could fire it more accurately and quickly than any other handgun in the house (we have 5).

Might the Smith and Wesson M&P9 be a great gun? Yes, I've never fired one. Might it be the better gun for you? Of course. I did some research and like my CZ. One reason he could have recommended the M&P9 is because it's simpler. It has a long trigger pull and will fire every time you pull the trigger with no safety. The CZ 75 BD also has no safety but has two firing modes -- double action and single action -- as well as a manual decocker which sets it to half cock. Slightly more complicated. I also believe the CZ might be a little bigger, which I like as it's a gun for my house and my car. The bigger gun is more accurate in my opinion but harder to conceal. I also believe the CZ might be a little cheaper but I don't know that offhand.

As for "stacking" that means the way the bullets are set. In single stack they lay on top of each other. This means that the magazine (and consequentially, the grip) is thinner. However, you may only get 8-10 rounds. With a double stack magazine, the bullets are staggered next to each other. This makes the magazine and grip necessarily wider but you may get as many as 12-20 rounds per magazine that way. It's all about preference.

Don't listen to the above. This refers to magazine stacking, something totally different. I've highlighted it because it's still good general information. Should've read the thread better
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Last edited by dakota.potts; November 6, 2013 at 09:24 PM.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Edit -What is meaning of 'stacking' James K?
I can answer that one:

Quote:
Stacking is the characteristic resistance of the trigger’s pull weight, it’s like a trigger pull weight profile. If a gun does not have stacking, the trigger pressure (really trigger force) required to pull the trigger is uniform from start to finish. That non-stacking is actually pretty difficult to realize because as one compresses a spring, more force is required to compress the spring further.
James is saying the Colt and Ruger triggers get harder to pull as they go back.

I never noticed ..... but I did notice that the pull on my Colt is smoother than all of the other revolvers I have fired, and lighter than most.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:10 PM   #14
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The instructor also recommended Springfield XD over glocks. He said he had several Xd and some had 40k-50k rounds and still doing good and they did not need cleaning and he had cleaned them only very few times since they were new.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:15 PM   #15
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Hi, Charlesc,

Stacking is when the trigger pull weight on a DA revolver increases as the trigger comes back and the mainspring and trigger spring compress. Colt developed some tricks, notably in the Python, to minimize the effect but it is still there. S&W uses a second cam with greater leverage that comes into play when the hammer comes back to keep the trigger pull consistent throughout.

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Old November 6, 2013, 09:21 PM   #16
charlesc
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Kreyzhorse said Don't buy a gun because someone suggests it, buy the one that you like and fits your hand the best.
____________
The instructor did not give a method to find which gun fits my hand best. He said there isn't any. Said to Just try all I could at the range and that can get really expensive.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:24 PM   #17
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Smith and Ruger are equally very good pistols and CZ makes one of the finest pistols there are.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:25 PM   #18
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How would you react if you took a driving class, and the instructor said that they don't recommend Subaru's.

Use some common sense and give these types of statements from anyone with a grain of salt (read: a likely oversimplified bias that makes THEM feel better).

For me: people who make statements like these loose credibility points.

You ARE on the right track to question the statements, and do your own research. YTube reviews, and A vs B vs C reviews, blogs, and other experienced shooters.

Hickock45 is an institution and reliable reviewer. See, you are watching him USE a weapon, and tell you WHAT and WHY he likes or dislikes. You are not watching a video of me sit in front of the camera saying I don't like or recommend CZ's. The difference is obvious.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
looked for first time at you tube videos about guns and there is a 'grandfather looking' nice guy by name of Hickock45 who seems very intelligent and knowing of firearms
Hickock45 is very knowledgeable, and can shoot pretty darn well, too. I like his videos, and have learned a few things watching him. Though there are worse ways to spend your time than watching him, there is no substitute for hands-on instruction, except maybe hands-on trial and error.
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Old November 6, 2013, 10:10 PM   #20
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That's entirely the instructor's personal bias speaking. None of the guns he mentioned are anything but exemplary.

Frankly, it's far from the first time I've heard such drivel from instructors.
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Old November 6, 2013, 10:14 PM   #21
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If the "instructor" made such wide generalities about his preferences, I'd be suspicious of anything else he might have said.
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Old November 6, 2013, 10:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlesc
As for CZ I asked him about CZ 75 BD full size gun. He recommends Smith and Wesson MP 9mm over it.
Find a new instructor. This guy is obviously a Smith & Wesson fanboy. S&W makes (or made) excellent firearms, but so does Ruger. And the CZ-75 is arguably THE most widely adopted handgun in the world, and IMHO anyone who would suggest to someone who is considering a CZ-75 that the M&P is "better" really needs to perform a reality check.
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Old November 6, 2013, 10:29 PM   #23
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Charles,
Your instructor gave preferences, apparently without passing on much of a foundation.

There is nothing wrong with those CZ pistols that are based on the CZ75.
There have been problems reported with one or two of the newer polymer CZ pistols.

I've worked with two CZ 75 compacts, ended up buying the last one despite my resolve to buy no more guns.

Recommending a Smith M&P9 over a full-sized CZ 75D is comparing apples to oranges.

Two different trigger mechanisms, two different sizes, two different weights, two different safety mechanisms.
The Smith would be lighter, more compact, and its trigger would be easier for you to learn. It's a simpler pistol, and that may be the reason behind his recommendation.

Define your own anticipated uses.
If strictly a range toy, get whichever you like.
If concealed carry, the Smith has a size advantage.

The instructor's admonition against CZ pistols could be because they have a long double-action trigger pull, and a more complicated (slightly) operation that involves dropping the hammer after firing. The Smith doesn't have that.

As far as Smith & Wesson revolvers over Rugers goes, that never fails to open up a metric ton of arguments.

I'll state my own opinions, based on having carried both brands in uniform, working professionally with several samples of each over the past few years, currently owning several of both, and discussing both brands with custom gunsmiths:

The Smith is more refined.
The Smith is not what it used to be.
The Ruger is a more modern design, not based on updates of the Smith's century-old basic mechanism.
The Ruger was designed from the ground up to handle both higher pressures and a higher volume of sustained use.
The Smith will tend to go out of time before the Ruger will (comparing DAs here).
Both companies have suffered from quality control issues recently.
Both companies have turned out overly-torqued barrels leaving canted sights.
The Smith has had internal dimension changes over the past few years that leave it (full-sized models, not the Js) with a stiffer DA trigger and one less tunable.
Both brands use MIM parts.
The Ruger is a more durable gun.

I am aware opposing opinions will follow, but at least I've given you the reasons behind mine.

If you don't plan to shoot 40,000 rounds of hot loads through a revolver, the choice will make no difference to you. Pick the one you think you like, and then get a set of grips that'll fit your hand if what comes on it doesn't.
Understand that the outa-box feel is not final, you can find numerous aftermarket grips to change how the gun feels in your hand for both brands.

The Springfield XDs are a decent pistol, but not superior to a good Glock in my opinion, and they do need to be cleaned.
I've carried Glocks in uniform & I've owned two Springfields.
I am not a Glock fanboy, but I still own five, and I sold the Springfields.

In your situation, I'd pass on an auto till you've got a more solid foundation behind you.
I'd suggest strongly that you learn the basics with a simpler revolver.
Failing that, the Glock, Smith, and Springfield will all be easier to learn than the CZ, because they're simpler to operate & have shorter & lighter trigger pulls.

It's good that you took a class, but when an instructor makes recommendations for or against, ask him why next time.
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Old November 6, 2013, 10:36 PM   #24
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charlesc,

Don't take the instructor's comments to mean all that much.

Now I LIKE S&W revolvers, especially older ones, but I sure don't say for self-defense they are to be picked over a Ruger.

And I don't know what his problem is with CZs.

One thing I learned years ago with teaching CHL, one keeps their personal opinions out of the class.

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Old November 6, 2013, 10:47 PM   #25
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Deaf Smith said: One thing I learned years ago with teaching CHL, one keeps their personal opinions out of the class.

charlesc, you need to take your training from Deaf.
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