Urban Combat: Shotgun or Assault Rifle?

[stevelyn]

I'll take the rifle. The shotgun is great for unarmored targets at room and yard distances, but you do know that something down the street is gonna need whacked and the rifle is the only thing that'll give you that reach and precision.

[garryc]

I'm going with the rifle. Assuming we are talking military combat. I'd choose it in police situations, but not a semi. It would be a 7600p.

[Para Bellum]

Happiness is a full gunsafe, not really, but it helps.

That made me LOL. I love that!

[smince]

Well, I just tied the poll, but I'll go with the assault rifle, or a semi-auto variant.

[Dwight55]

All our point guys in 'Nam who could get one would grab the shotty every time. They looked like the Pillsbury dough boy with every conceivable pocket either filled with shells or water as they went out on patrol, . . .

The question was asked about urban warfare, . . . the implication being house to house, . . . up the alley, . . . down the street. Yessir, . . . shotgun for me.

May God bless,
Dwight

[locknid]

I would take a rifle over a shotgun(as i apologize to mine) in an urban combat situation. The rifle has three main aspects as to why I would carry it over a shotgun. First is the rate of fire, much faster then a shotgun(unless full) and with a rifle the recoil is usually not as bad so you can shoot multiple times more accurately. Second is I have more ammo at my disposile before I have to think about changing mags, also it is easier to carry multiple say AR-15 mags over tons of shotgun shells which I have to manually load one at a time in a pump. If I was clearing houses and part of a team I would def be the shotgunner. Also in a civil unrest zombie situation I would probably use a shotgun from the comfort of my bedroom. But if I was in urban combat hand me a nice rifle, doesn't even have to be full auto.

[jeager106]

I fellas.
This debate was bound to happen.
It's interseting and brings out a lot of common sense, the experiences of others who have "been there done that", and some silly stuff like, 000 buck will stop a Humvee "dead in its tracks".
I'm retired LEO ( disabled in the line really.
I formed our SWAT team, was the firearms instructor, as well as designated sniper, and led drugs raids and other fun, but boring stuff.
The combat s.g. is an extremely effective but very sepcialized weapon.
We abandoned the use of the "riot" gun in it's antiquated form years ago.
We still issue the 12 bore in 870 persuasion but with some minror changes and a whole lot of training so cops, who don't necessarily know much about guns, would understand it's limited usefullness.
At distances under 60 feet the s.g. is quite effective against gobblins wearing normal clothing and using buckshot as the payload.
Our 870 wore i.c. inserted tubes to give a bit better pattern and still be able to fire slugs.
The slug is very, very, effective against tissue targets out to and a little beyond 100 yards if the shooter can manage the weapon.
All issued 'riot' guns have rifled sights, are (were) sighted in dead bull at 50 yards. Issued slug ammo was Winchester 1 oz soft lead fosters.
Why? They work as well as any other foster in a smoothie and are pretty cheap by the case.
The s.g. barrel will need cleaned thoroughly after shooting just 5 rounds of the pure lead fosters.
Even years ago we learned to chuck a 12 bore cleaning rod in a 3/8 drill and apply the drill and solvent liberally to properly "get the lead out".
If I were still able to play policeman again I would consider using Brenneke K.O. slugs.
1) they are cheaper even than Winny
2) they are more accurate
3) that big flat nose dumps more gee whiz and tears up tissue rather well.
4) a dead solid hit in the K-5 even over body armor will dizzy a bad guy real bad!
I use them for bambi and they are 4" at 75 yards accurate on a bad day.
A properly loaded and sighted in shottie can serve as a passable rifle.
Not minute of angle accurate but minute of gobblin accurate.
About ammo.
Buckshot sucks!
Period.
Unless distances are close, under 30 yards, there is the distinct possibility that every one of the 9 00 buck could miss a gobblin! (18" no choke)
I have set up targets to teach the troops how easy it is to completely miss a man sized gobblin with the standard issue of cheap unplated, unbuffered, 9 pellet 00 buck load.
Remember, even a few hits from buck at any distance at all is an anemic projectile.
A .33 lead ball at 900 f.p.s. won't do much damage unless you run said ball up the gobblins nose holes. Compare the buck to a rather old, slow, .32 auto bullet. Would that be your choice in a save yer bacon situation?
At thirty FEET and under, ANY shot load can be devestating, slugs are a no brainer. Slugs is nasty.
When considering the s.g. for serious social interaction one must also consider the fact that there is a veritable plethora of ammo specific to doing certain work.
The s.g. must then be loaded with the ammo specific to the job at hand and it takes time to load the sucker. Assuming you have ammo on your person and the time to switch it out.
I love the s.g. for certain applications.
For a bedroom defense against a burglarizing bad guy it will definately stop any armed confrontation. Distances of course are going to be less than 20 feet.
Up close and personal the s.g. reigns king,
Go beyond 30 yards and you have issues and must switch to slugs and rely on sights to get proper effect from one ounce of soft pure lead.
The "assult" rifle, whatever you choose that term to mean, is superior all around.
Even at very close range the s.g. must still be pointed, call it "aimed", and so does the rifle.
A .223, even the 7.62 X 39 rounds, recoil very little, the s.g. recoils a whole bunch.
The rifle muzzle blast can be minimized with a flash hider, the muzzle blast from a s.g. at night will flat blind you!
Recoil from the mentioned rifle calibers are very mild allowing fast aimed fire.
Recoil from the shottie needs no further comment.
I could go on with this learned diatribe but you get the picture.
For general purpose 'saving my bacon' in an urban combat situation I would not feel naked with the shottie but my tactics would be altered to fit the weapon in my hands.
I would feel much better with at least an AK-47 in a combat situation.

[SpK]

Wait a minute!


Quote:
I have grown to love the assault rifle, ever since I first knew what one was.

Do you really know what an assault rifle is?

Let's be clear. It is NOT an AR-15. Nor is it an M1A, SKS or any other semi-automatic rifle, regardless of its configuration.

Assault rifles (Sturmgewehr) are moderately short, light select-fire weapons capable of fully-automatic fire (including burst-mode) which utilize an intermediate-range rifle cartridge with a magazine capacity suitable for suppressive fire as well as accurate semi-automatic fire.

A combat shotgun will have a barrel 18" or less in length and may include a pistol grip and/or folding stock for CQB. There exists a version of the combat shotgun that could be called an "assault shotgun" in that it is select fire and uses either a box or drum magazine.

Let's also note that a shotgun with 00-Buck (9 pellets/round) and a 6 round magazine puts out 54 projectiles while the M16/M4/M14 puts out only 20-30 projectiles. (Think of shotguns as the "original burst mode" gun.)

In urban combat - where house clearing is a standard function - the almost-ideal shotgun would be the late High-Standard Model 10 "bullpup" shotgun or the aforementioned "assault shotgun". In the CQB scenarios of house clearing, the 12 gauge 00 buck round is devastating. Slugs can penetrate solid wood doors and even heavy lathe & plaster walls with surprising ease.

Reality says that your urban combat team should consist of at least one rifleman who has an assault rifle capable of precision shooting. A five man team would consist of two shotguns and two rifles with the 5th man able to go either way since he is the point man in a withdrawl, if necessary.

Thus the shotgun and assault rifle compliment each other in urban combat, instead of fighting for supremacy.

Squad sized teams should include at least one .30 caliber rifle (M14) and/or an M60E4 and one or more members with an M203 grenade launcher on an M16 or M4.

Yes, I REALLY know what the definition of an assault rifle is. I know AR-15s, SKSs, or M1As (especially M1A due to large cartridge) are not 'assault rifles'. However, being semi or fully automatic, I prefer to call them 'assault rifles' due to the ease of saying that over calling them semi-automatic autoloaders. If you want to call them semi-automatic autoloaders, that's fine, too.

[Para Bellum]

All our point guys in 'Nam who could get one would grab the shotty every time. They looked like the Pillsbury dough boy with every conceivable pocket either filled with shells or water as they went out on patrol, . . .

That was maybe because the M16 didn't work. I have never heard of guys issued AKs, AUGs or FALs etc wanting to trade their Rifle for a shotgun.

[RevolverLover]

That was maybe because the M16 didn't work. I have never heard of guys issued AKs, AUGs or FALs etc wanting to trade their Rifle for a shotgun.

When I was on point, I still wanted a shotgun instead of the M16, AK, M3 grease gun, or anything else we had at the time. You would have to be at point to know why.

[snolden]

IF you know you are going to need a long gun, you DON'T go by yourself. You bring as many friends as you can and you mix up your weapons. The shotgun loaded with slugs, with some buckshot deep in the mag. The rifle loaded with teh best ammo you can afford along with a couple mags of ball for penetrating walls, a .30 cal (even a bolt action) for concrete walls, lights, radios, full bore.

If it is urban combat and you are alone, you are DEAD. The only way a lone person will survive a combat scenario is if they are lucky and have a chance to run away.

[BobK]

I like the shotgun but would use an AR our equivilent rifle for urban warfare because of the short and long range capability. But if I were in extreme close quarters battle then the shotgun would be first. Actually it would be nice to carry both.

[Speer]

Rate of fire, load time, range, low recoil. Rifle for me.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You run out into the street and rack your shotgun. The noise causes all bad guys in a 2 block radius to run away. Vehicles are disintegrated by the sonic waves from a racking pump gun. Didn't ya know that?

[Nagano21]

I have to go with the Assault rifle. Further range,more accurate, and can fire off rounds, and reload a lot faster than a shottie. However a shotgun is still going to do its job well, but just not what I would prefer.

[Greg_Dunn]

In up close and personal role the shotgun is a versatile weapon, can be used for breaching, less lethal, and lethal applications.

There is a great variety of specialty ammunition available nowadays.
You don't have to be a good marksman to have an effect with it as you do with a rifle and it covers area targets better.

I love my M4 and have used it with the 203 as well, but to me the ultimate urban combat weapon is the shotgun for general use.

I still like my old 870P.

[CobrayCommando]

Slugs may not penetrate armor, but at reasonable ranges anyone in soft armor (maybe even with a metal trauma plate) is probably going to be incapacitated with a shot to the chest.

[David Armstrong]

Shotgun, hands down. No other weapon gives you the versatility for the urban environment. Proper selection of ammo and weapon allows effective engagement of targets out to 100 meters, and nothing is as good for hit rates within 50 meters. This assumes, of course, a properly trained operator, and those are few and far between. The rifle, in the hands of the moderately trained, is probably better, but for the well-trained the shotgun dominates.

I have never heard of guys issued AKs, AUGs or FALs etc wanting to trade their Rifle for a shotgun.

You just haven't been around enough.

[jeager106]

Shotgun, hands down. No other weapon gives you the versatility
Versitility? The question addressed urban combat. The s.g. is a specialized weapon. Even in military applications the s.g. is issued for specific reasons. It is not a general combat weapon, nor is it versitile.
for the urban environment. Proper selection of ammo and weapon allows effective engagement of targets out to 100 meters,
O.K. What ammo is effective to 100 meters? I'm hoping you say a bullet like projectile, i.e. slug, not buck shot.

and nothing is as good for hit rates within 50 meters.

Hit rates at 50 meters with what ammo? From a s.g.? Are you talking about 10 guys shooting buckshot all at once? Then yes, you could fill the air with buck.
But hit rate at 50 meters from a military or police s.g. from one person firing?
Perhaps you missed my post where I reported out on the fact that you could miss a man sized target using a cyl. bore 12, and the standard load of nine 00 soft lead, unbuffered, unplated buckshot.
At 50 meters 00 buck don't penetrate worth a hoot. Remember it's a .33 caliber roundball rocketing along at the screaming velocity of about 700 f.p.s. at that range. Maybe slower. Besides a lead cube, nothing, absolutely nothing, sheds velocity faster than a roundball.
I'm quite sure that a pellet or two would wound an opponent but you ain't gonna set any records for knockdown power.
Oh, by the way. Not long ago I shot some Seller and Bellot JUNK 00 buck over my P-35 and it registered a whopping 835 f.p.s. at 12 feet from the muzzle.Wonder if the pellets hit warp factor 10 at 50 meters?

This assumes, of course, a properly trained operator, and those are few and far between. The rifle, in the hands of the moderately trained, is probably better, but for the well-trained the shotgun dominates.

Listen: What in the world makes you think "proper training" changes the ballsitics of buckshot???????
Your turn.

[Dirty_Harry]

AR-15 for me

[john in jax]

One of each. Both have their roles.

Up close or even at extended ranges with a .308 or .30-06 there is a good chance, if I can determine your location, that I can shoot you even THROUGH most building materials (a.k.a. walls, doors, etc...).

A shotgun isn't as effective in that very narrow situation BUT is hard to beat for laying down a lot of fire power. And slugs do make breeching doors easier.

[dixierifleman]

M4 with Remington 870 Express Super Magnum underneath it. loaded 00 buck, slug, 00, slug, 00, slug, 00

[jeager106]

The original question was:
My question is: having been both well documented, which weapon do you think is more effective in modern urban combat?
Since the war we are currently involved in has morphed into a largely urban battle one wonders why the rifle has not been largely replaced by the shotgun?
The shotgun remains a specialized weapon and is not issued en mass to the troops.
Could be the military has a handle on the situation and our military leaders understand the role of the combat shotgun quite well.

Now let me posit a question.
Has anyone here, even one of you, ever patterned 00 buck from a cylinder bore 12 gauge at any distance?
Now, has anyone of you ever, in a controled test, fired the standard nine 00 buck load at a full measured 50 yards from a cylinder bore 12 gauge shotgun?

Does anyone that has posted here know what the weight of a single 00 buckshot pellet is?
Do you know the velocity of the pellet at 50 yards? At the muzzle?
Done any penetration tests at 50 yards with 00 buck?

Mind you I think we need to agree, or disagree and argue, (scientific sense of the word) that the combat shotgun is NOT equipped with a turkey full choke.

Can we agree on that?
Do we agree that a combat shotgun probably doesn't need to be equipped with removable choke tubes?
If it has removable choke tubes can we agree that swapping choke tubes during an armed confrontation is probably a really, really, bad move?

That said, the combat shotgun is likely a cylinder bore.
Which brings me back to the statements I've read here in these posts about the shotgun being effective at 50 yards with 2 3/4" 00 buck.

IT AIN'T effective at 50 yards with 00 buck.

Yes indeedy you might get a lucky strike or even two from the standard 00 buck load on a person at 50 yards, but effective as a stopper it ain't.

Arguments for the other side please?

[frog21]

That said, the combat shotgun is likely a cylinder bore.
Which brings me back to the statements I've read here in these posts about the shotgun being effective at 50 yards with 2 3/4" 00 buck.

IT AIN'T effective at 50 yards with 00 buck.

Yes indeedy you might get a lucky strike or even two from the standard 00 buck load on a person at 50 yards, but effective as a stopper it ain't.

Arguments for the other side please?

I own 3 tactical shotguns that will put 6 or 7 00 buck pellets on a 12 inch plate at 50 yards. I have done this many times. None of them have chokes. They have been modified by Hans Vang. I am not saying that those pellets will have a lot of stopping power at 50 yards but they may have a pretty good effect depending on where and what they strike.

Shooting slugs from the same shotguns is no problem even out to about 125 yards. I have shot 5 inch, 5 shot groups at 100 yards with all of my shotguns and I have taken effective head shots at 100 yards on a standard pepper popper on several occasions.

In most true urban combat, 50 yards is long shot.

I do not remember the velocity at 50 yards or the weight of a 00 pellet but I have patterned many shotguns with many types of loads and I have tested the effects on body armor, ballistic gelatin and differnt types of clothing.

The combat shotgun can be effective in urban combat but it does take the proper ammuniton and you must be aware of it's limitations.

By the way, in the poll, I voted for the rifle. I have combat experience with both and the carbine is better overall but not by much.

[RevolverLover]

Versitility? The question addressed urban combat. The s.g. is a specialized weapon. Even in military applications the s.g. is issued for specific reasons. It is not a general combat weapon, nor is it versitile.

Yes, the shotgun is versatile. I used it very effectively in combat. The shotgun is not a general combat weapon...nobody said it was...but the question was what would someone rather have...so it boils down to personal preference.

O.K. What ammo is effective to 100 meters? I'm hoping you say a bullet like projectile, i.e. slug, not buck shot.

See you can use both buckshot and slugs...isn't that versatile?

What in the world makes you think "proper training" changes the ballsitics of buckshot???????

Proper training doesn't change the ballistics of buckshot but allows you to use it more effectively.