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Old January 15, 2019, 03:37 PM   #26
603Country
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I’m a hunter. The first shot is the one that counts, and I’m Ok with 3 shot groups from rifles I’ve had long enough to know how they shoot. With new rifles I’ll go for 5 shot groups until I have found the load I want and have confidence it’s a shooter.
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Old January 15, 2019, 04:06 PM   #27
Drm50
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I have shot a lot of groundhogs with HV rifles and big scopes. These rifles are capable of
groups better than I can shoot, even rested. I have a reputation of being a good off hand
shot with a rifle. I have buddy that has been into bench rest shooting for years. He has some money in his rifles and scopes. He also has a case full of trophies. He has framed targets that are one hole. I have shot his rifles and did really well by my standards but I
wouldn't be a contender in the bench rest game. Most don't realize the money, time and
effort put into coming up with a one hole rifle. That's why I get tired of listing to guys who
have a Mosin or such that shots into one hole, all day long.
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Old January 15, 2019, 05:30 PM   #28
Rangerrich99
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I have to admit when I first started using scopes, I would fire a round and then make a scope adjustment, then repeat. Basically chasing holes around my targets. It did work, but it usually involved a lot of wasted time, bullets and targets.

It wasn't until I became friends with an F-class shooter about 16 years ago that I learned to shoot the group first (10-20 rounds), then make my adjustments. Looking back, I can't believe I didn't figure that out on my own, but there it is.

Nowadays when I see someone struggling at the range to zero their rifles (usually I wait until they ask me) I'll point out that first they should shoot a group first, then measure from the center of the group to make any turret adjustments to their scope. However, as often as not, after I return to my bench, I'll see them go back to their previous habits of shooting a shot or two then spinning their turrets.
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Old January 15, 2019, 06:43 PM   #29
ice monkey
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For me, shooting groups is great when you’re testing a new rifle and/or testing different ammo. Beyond that, I find it useless. It doesn’t bring home the dinner or the trophy. Holding a rifle still is only a small part of shooting. A fun part... but only a part.

Shooting groups at a predetermined POI is what it’s all about. Calculating drop and wind while holding the rifle steady. Doing it while standing ... after 30 pushups! Now that’s exciting/skill.

I want to shoot groups where I aim my rifle.
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Old January 16, 2019, 09:37 AM   #30
agtman
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Quote:
Hogs yes, Varmint shooting is not hunting.
Wow, ... guess I'll have to alert my buddies that we haven't been 'hunting' 'yotes all these years.

The only difference between hunting hogs and hunting coyotes is, for the 'yotes we're using a call from a stationary position, whereas with the hogs we're often on the move between engagements. That type of hunting is more fluid.

Either way, we'll be shooting at more hogs or 'yotes on a typical outing than the 1 or 2 deer your average Fuddley might pop from a tree stand every season.

Thus, it matters to know that the particular load I'll be using has been vetted with several 5-shot groups through the rifle at a minimum legit range (100-yds), and then dialed-in with a final, pre-hunt zero, ... which for the 'yotes with my 5.56 AR is 200-yds.

Last edited by agtman; January 16, 2019 at 10:11 AM.
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Old January 16, 2019, 04:34 PM   #31
RC20
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Quote:
For me, shooting groups is great when you’re testing a new rifle and/or testing different ammo. Beyond that, I find it useless. It doesn’t bring home the dinner or the trophy. Holding a rifle still is only a small part of shooting. A fun part... but only a part.
You can't do the rest until you shoot good groups. I can dial it over to dead center but all that tells me is I know how to move dials the right direction.

I don't hunt anymore. Good groups are my fun.

100 yard range at least in the winter. May move to using the 300 meter for warmer weather shooting.

I don't ever expect to do the 1000 for other than interest once in a long while likely.

So, each his own, one guys fun is not another perons (seeing more women shooting) fun and or interest.

I don't hack on the hunter, I know what they are after, they like to see what I do as its interesting to shoot small groups but its no in their wheelhouse to try to match it (nor do I do anything other than tell them what I do and what they do are worlds apart). You guys don't have nice targets on your animals and you don't have a bench and you sure don't want to lug my bull barrel around.

If its a nice 1.5 inch group and centered and (X inches high) at 100 I tell them that is just fine. That is real world hunting, what I do is playing (and enjoy it)

But the basics still are there, good trigger control gets good results.

You can add in the wind and all that if you go out that far it affects what you are trying to achieve.
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Old January 17, 2019, 12:24 PM   #32
davidsog
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How accurate do you want your zero to be?

In SOTIC, we zero'd with 10 shot groups and generally shot 5 shot groups in training exercises.

Why?

Quote:
3. Conclusions/Continuing Questions

I’ll do this as a bulleted list here for those of us who hate math/reading/attention span:

 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the actual distribution of shots. 10-shot groups can precisely describe the actual distribution of shots.

 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the zero of the rifle nearly as well as 10-shot groups.
http://www.bealeinnovations.com/stats-3shotgroup.pdf

The reason 3 shot groups are not ideal is based upon physics and science. It is not based upon how you feel about it.

However, you can "pad" the statistics using a 3-shot group. Simply shoot ANOTHER 3 shot group to confirm your zero. So, six bullets at POA/POI using 3 shot groups equals a zero that is very close statistically to a zero based upon ONE 5 shot group POA/POI.

A 10 shot group is ideal.
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Old January 17, 2019, 02:32 PM   #33
RC20
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I don't know about others, but what I see is the hunter group shoots a number of 3 shot groups.

I did as well and I think that deals with what is needed.
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Old January 17, 2019, 03:25 PM   #34
agtman
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Quote:
How accurate do you want your zero to be?
In SOTIC, we zero'd with 10 shot groups and generally shot 5 shot groups in training exercises.
Why?
Quote:
3. Conclusions/Continuing Questions
I’ll do this as a bulleted list here for those of us who hate math/reading/attention span:
 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the actual distribution of shots. 10-shot groups can precisely describe the actual distribution of shots.
 3-shot groups cannot precisely describe the zero of the rifle nearly as well as 10-shot groups.

http://www.bealeinnovations.com/stats-3shotgroup.pdf
The reason 3 shot groups are not ideal is based upon physics and science. It is not based upon how you feel about it.
However, you can "pad" the statistics using a 3-shot group. Simply shoot ANOTHER 3 shot group to confirm your zero. So, six bullets at POA/POI using 3 shot groups equals a zero that is very close statistically to a zero based upon ONE 5 shot group POA/POI.
A 10 shot group is ideal.
At least someone here gets it. Excellent explanatory post. Thank you.

Then, suddenly, out of the wilds, RC20 unburdened himself with:

Quote:
I don't know about others, but what I see is the hunter group shoots a number of 3 shot groups.
Yes, a group of armed humans known as 'Fuddleys.'

Quote:
I did as well and I think that deals with what is needed.
Major Fudd right there.
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Old January 17, 2019, 05:02 PM   #35
davidsog
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Quote:
Thank you
You're welcome.
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Old January 19, 2019, 12:42 PM   #36
RC20
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agtman:

Unlike some, I do not live in an ideal world. This is a discussion and its about respect as well.

My take is that you feel no one has the right to do it their way even if its both successful and they are ethical. They clearly need to take the US Army sniper course before they should be allowed into the woods.

Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

You miss the point. While davidsog is correct for the modern target shooting to the nth degree, people shot game for hundreds of years with a smooth bore. How could they have been so wrong? ,

Calling people Fuddly that take their game successfully just demeans you.

Your groups go to hell when you are a bit winded and lucky if you can find a way to rest before a hunting shot.

If a person consciously goes to the range, sights in his rifle and hits the target where he wants it then that is not a Fuddly.

Are there poor hunters? Of course there are. Are there people who are loose with calling names and arrogance, that is true as well.
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Old January 19, 2019, 06:20 PM   #37
agtman
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Quote:
If a person consciously goes to the range, sights in his rifle, and hits the target where he wants it, then that is not a Fuddly.
I agree. Thank you.

All is now well in the world.
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Old January 21, 2019, 01:29 PM   #38
hdbiker
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I use Redfield sight in targets, with 5 bullseyes per target. I shoot 4 shot groups into 5 bullseyes, thus one box of loads per target. Only making adjustments after 5 groups. Works for me. hdbiker
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