black powder cartridges... one primer or primer type better ???

Magnum Wheel Man · October 8, 2014, 03:21 PM

I'm considering loading some black powder cartridges ( actually several ) this is pretty new to me, I'm highly experienced loading smokeless... as the title says... anything better or worse than others???

cup hardness or brisance matter... small primers equal to large, magnum primers better or worse for any reason ???

cartridges I'm considering range in size from 38 Short Colt, to 45 Black powder Magnum ( which uses 460 S&W cases ) with a few in between... so large & small primers...

does the granulation of the powder make a difference on the primer used???

would a coarser powder, still packed in tight offer a lower velocity, lower pressure load, or is one better off in cartridges, using the finest grinds of powder ???

thanks for any info...

any with experience want to chime in ???

Poindexter · October 8, 2014, 03:33 PM

In general BP lights easier than modern smokeless, so in general any old primer should be fine.

I had no trouble lighting 777 in 45 Colt cases last winter at -40dF using regular primers.

I have no experience with the 45BPM (460 sized) case. If the book/ recipe says regular not magnum priomer I would expect to light off just fine.

I have found going to a slightly smaller granulation gets me a tiny tiny bit of velocity in trade for a gun barrel that gets a lot hotter a lot faster.

Best of luck to you. I have burnt a bunch of 777 and got my hands on some Goex this summer. I'll probably go back to stocking 777.

FWIW the soft red crayon lube from penn bullets dot com (no affiliation) works good for me in my guns down to about +10dF.

Jim Watson · October 8, 2014, 03:56 PM

You can justify almost anything.
For a while, BPCR shooters used magnum primers, trying to recapture the arsenal .45-70's "long burn" primer meant to break up the compressed powder charge.
Now most use standard primers with some going down to pistol primers in rifle cases so as to disturb the bullet seat before the powder gets going.

I would start out with standard primers and FFg or FFFg.
The old timers tended to use a coarser grained powder than we do now.

bedbugbilly · October 8, 2014, 09:19 PM

I have no experience with the 45 but I do load 38 Colt Shor & Long, 38 Spl. and 357 Mag with BP. All I use is standard small pistol primers - currently using CCI primers - ignition just fine.

I load those with 3F Goex. Make sure you use a compressed load.

On the 357 casing, I use a 38 spl. casing as a dipper to measure the powder. That leaves about a 1/10" between the powder level and the case mouth rim. I load a 160 gr. lead RN out of a Lyman 358311 mold in the 357 and the 38 Spl. Seating to the crimp line gives good compression to the powder and they seem to work well for me. I don't use any wad I just finger lube the lube grooves int he bullet with my standard BP lube with my finger, seat and put a moderate crump.

On the 38 spl casing, I use a 38 Colt Long casing for a powder dipper - again, it gives about 1/10 of an inch oowdr level below the case mouth rim and seating the above bullet compresses the load and they fire every time.

Fot the 38 Colt Short and Long casings, I trim a Short and a Long casing down 1/10 of an inch or so to use as a powder dipper. In the Short and the Long, I'm using a 121 gr. RN cast in a Lyman 358242 mold. I like this bullet and also use it at times in 38 spl. as well.

I have a fairly decent suppy of 3F Goex so I load with that. I would imagine you could use 2F in a pinch but for the smaller cartridges, I like the 3F.

For my 38 spl. BP cartridges, I use nickel casings. As soon as you get home from shooting, de-prime and wash the casings well in hot soapy water, then since to get rid of the corrosive fouling. The 38 Colt Short/Long and 357 casings that I use are brass as that's all I have. I clean the same way and keep them separate from my supply of casings I use for smokeless reloading.

The 38 Colt Shorts, Longs and Specials I'm shooting out of a 5 1/2' New Vaquero and a 4 3/4 Uberti Bisley.

The BP 357s I've been using in my 357 Handi-Rifle. Still getting used to it ant playing with it but it's a hoot to shoot witht he BP cartridges. I run a wet patch from the breech to the muzzle every coupe of shots and allow "cooling time" between shots. Even with smokeless loads in my Handi - if I fire too quickly and the barrel is warm, it will throw off the POI.

If you're loading smokeless - you won't have a problem at all - just dive in and get your feet wet. Basic rules to follow - no airspace in the casing - use a compressed load and de-prime and thoroughly clean your casings in a timely manner. I guarantee that after you fire your first few BP cartridges, you'll have a great big old smile on your face! Let us know how it goes!

Hawg · October 9, 2014, 04:30 AM

I use standard primers. They work equally well with Pyrodex RS and Swiss FFG.

noelf2 · October 9, 2014, 10:35 AM

Smoke what ya got.

mehavey · October 9, 2014, 10:57 AM

Use large/small standard Pistol primers with (true) black powder
-- on both pistol AND rifle.

whughett62 · October 23, 2014, 02:39 PM

This past summer and early fall I used up some 400+ Large Rifle primers of various brands in my Ruger Old Army with its R&D conversion cylinder. From full to the brim to sub loads under filler, they all went boom. Worked for me and used up surplus components . Will note that said primers seated better in the StarLine brass than the Winchester stuff. (45Colt) Winchester they sat a tad high but did not interfere with the two piece R&D type conversion cylinder.

Rigmarol · October 25, 2014, 03:34 PM

I shoot BP cartridges in .45Colt for my Cowboy Action shooting.
Full cartridge to the bottom of the bullet with real black or substitutes in 2f and 3f work just fine with standard primers for me. I've used Magnum primers and can't tell any difference.

royal barnes · October 25, 2014, 04:08 PM

Magnum primers are not necessary. I load .38 special, .45 Colt and .44-40 with 2f Goex. I use Federal and Winchester primers. CCI's are a little harder and may cause problems especially if you're using a gun with a light trigger. The biggest boon for success is properly lubed bullets. Any of the big groove projectiles with a mixed lubricant(there are many) helps. These loads keep the fouling soft and makes for easier cleanup. k

Driftwood Johnson · October 25, 2014, 09:40 PM

Howdy

I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 38-40, and 44 Russian with Black Powder. Goex but more often Schuetzen. As stated, BP is easier to ignite than Smokeless. Some writers have said in the past that magnum primers were necessary, but I have always used standard Large Pistol primers, either Winchester or Federals. Generally speaking, using FFFg instead of FFg will result in between 60 - 100 fps more velocity, all other things being equal. The dividing line between FFg and FFFg was traditionally 45 Caliber, with FFFg used for anything smaller, however many guys use FFg in 38 caliber in a pinch.

Loading BP is dead simple. Determine how deep the bullet sits when seated and crimped. Add enough powder so the powder will be compressed 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. Do use a soft BP compatible lube. I used to pan lube with a 50/50 mix of Crisco/Beeswax, these days I usually use SPG.

Clean with a water soluble solvent.

October 8, 2014, 03:21 PM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	black powder cartridges... one primer or primer type better ??? I'm considering loading some black powder cartridges ( actually several ) this is pretty new to me, I'm highly experienced loading smokeless... as the title says... anything better or worse than others??? cup hardness or brisance matter... small primers equal to large, magnum primers better or worse for any reason ??? cartridges I'm considering range in size from 38 Short Colt, to 45 Black powder Magnum ( which uses 460 S&W cases ) with a few in between... so large & small primers... does the granulation of the powder make a difference on the primer used??? would a coarser powder, still packed in tight offer a lower velocity, lower pressure load, or is one better off in cartridges, using the finest grinds of powder ??? thanks for any info... any with experience want to chime in ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 8, 2014, 09:19 PM	#4
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I have no experience with the 45 but I do load 38 Colt Shor & Long, 38 Spl. and 357 Mag with BP. All I use is standard small pistol primers - currently using CCI primers - ignition just fine. I load those with 3F Goex. Make sure you use a compressed load. On the 357 casing, I use a 38 spl. casing as a dipper to measure the powder. That leaves about a 1/10" between the powder level and the case mouth rim. I load a 160 gr. lead RN out of a Lyman 358311 mold in the 357 and the 38 Spl. Seating to the crimp line gives good compression to the powder and they seem to work well for me. I don't use any wad I just finger lube the lube grooves int he bullet with my standard BP lube with my finger, seat and put a moderate crump. On the 38 spl casing, I use a 38 Colt Long casing for a powder dipper - again, it gives about 1/10 of an inch oowdr level below the case mouth rim and seating the above bullet compresses the load and they fire every time. Fot the 38 Colt Short and Long casings, I trim a Short and a Long casing down 1/10 of an inch or so to use as a powder dipper. In the Short and the Long, I'm using a 121 gr. RN cast in a Lyman 358242 mold. I like this bullet and also use it at times in 38 spl. as well. I have a fairly decent suppy of 3F Goex so I load with that. I would imagine you could use 2F in a pinch but for the smaller cartridges, I like the 3F. For my 38 spl. BP cartridges, I use nickel casings. As soon as you get home from shooting, de-prime and wash the casings well in hot soapy water, then since to get rid of the corrosive fouling. The 38 Colt Short/Long and 357 casings that I use are brass as that's all I have. I clean the same way and keep them separate from my supply of casings I use for smokeless reloading. The 38 Colt Shorts, Longs and Specials I'm shooting out of a 5 1/2' New Vaquero and a 4 3/4 Uberti Bisley. The BP 357s I've been using in my 357 Handi-Rifle. Still getting used to it ant playing with it but it's a hoot to shoot witht he BP cartridges. I run a wet patch from the breech to the muzzle every coupe of shots and allow "cooling time" between shots. Even with smokeless loads in my Handi - if I fire too quickly and the barrel is warm, it will throw off the POI. If you're loading smokeless - you won't have a problem at all - just dive in and get your feet wet. Basic rules to follow - no airspace in the casing - use a compressed load and de-prime and thoroughly clean your casings in a timely manner. I guarantee that after you fire your first few BP cartridges, you'll have a great big old smile on your face! Let us know how it goes! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

October 9, 2014, 10:35 AM	#6
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Smoke what ya got. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

October 8, 2014, 03:33 PM	#2
Poindexter Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2009 Location: Interior Alaska Posts: 154	In general BP lights easier than modern smokeless, so in general any old primer should be fine. I had no trouble lighting 777 in 45 Colt cases last winter at -40dF using regular primers. I have no experience with the 45BPM (460 sized) case. If the book/ recipe says regular not magnum priomer I would expect to light off just fine. I have found going to a slightly smaller granulation gets me a tiny tiny bit of velocity in trade for a gun barrel that gets a lot hotter a lot faster. Best of luck to you. I have burnt a bunch of 777 and got my hands on some Goex this summer. I'll probably go back to stocking 777. FWIW the soft red crayon lube from penn bullets dot com (no affiliation) works good for me in my guns down to about +10dF.

October 8, 2014, 03:56 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,536	You can justify almost anything. For a while, BPCR shooters used magnum primers, trying to recapture the arsenal .45-70's "long burn" primer meant to break up the compressed powder charge. Now most use standard primers with some going down to pistol primers in rifle cases so as to disturb the bullet seat before the powder gets going. I would start out with standard primers and FFg or FFFg. The old timers tended to use a coarser grained powder than we do now.

October 9, 2014, 04:30 AM	#5
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I use standard primers. They work equally well with Pyrodex RS and Swiss FFG.

October 9, 2014, 10:57 AM	#7
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	Use large/small standard Pistol primers with (true) black powder -- on both pistol AND rifle.

October 23, 2014, 02:39 PM	#8
whughett62 Junior Member Join Date: October 22, 2014 Posts: 2	This past summer and early fall I used up some 400+ Large Rifle primers of various brands in my Ruger Old Army with its R&D conversion cylinder. From full to the brim to sub loads under filler, they all went boom. Worked for me and used up surplus components . Will note that said primers seated better in the StarLine brass than the Winchester stuff. (45Colt) Winchester they sat a tad high but did not interfere with the two piece R&D type conversion cylinder.

October 25, 2014, 03:34 PM	#9
Rigmarol Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 344	I shoot BP cartridges in .45Colt for my Cowboy Action shooting. Full cartridge to the bottom of the bullet with real black or substitutes in 2f and 3f work just fine with standard primers for me. I've used Magnum primers and can't tell any difference.

October 25, 2014, 04:08 PM	#10
royal barnes Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2012 Location: Wendell, N.C. Posts: 189	Magnum primers are not necessary. I load .38 special, .45 Colt and .44-40 with 2f Goex. I use Federal and Winchester primers. CCI's are a little harder and may cause problems especially if you're using a gun with a light trigger. The biggest boon for success is properly lubed bullets. Any of the big groove projectiles with a mixed lubricant(there are many) helps. These loads keep the fouling soft and makes for easier cleanup. k

October 25, 2014, 09:40 PM	#11
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 38-40, and 44 Russian with Black Powder. Goex but more often Schuetzen. As stated, BP is easier to ignite than Smokeless. Some writers have said in the past that magnum primers were necessary, but I have always used standard Large Pistol primers, either Winchester or Federals. Generally speaking, using FFFg instead of FFg will result in between 60 - 100 fps more velocity, all other things being equal. The dividing line between FFg and FFFg was traditionally 45 Caliber, with FFFg used for anything smaller, however many guys use FFg in 38 caliber in a pinch. Loading BP is dead simple. Determine how deep the bullet sits when seated and crimped. Add enough powder so the powder will be compressed 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. Do use a soft BP compatible lube. I used to pan lube with a 50/50 mix of Crisco/Beeswax, these days I usually use SPG. Clean with a water soluble solvent.