Franklin BFS vs. Fostech Echo vs. Tac Con 3MR

[nomad636]

Over the past few years and most recently the past year we have seen a ton of new innovative triggers on the market.

I am looking for some reviews by people who have used the aforementioned triggers. I'm looking for a new rapid fire trigger for hog hunting, and I've narrowed it down to the the Franklin BFS, the Fostech Echo and the Tac Con 3MR.

I've fired the Tac Con and I was able to get some pretty fast double taps... but nothing more impressive than my Geissele SD3G trigger can produce. Both Franklin and Fostech have some interesting "double fire" triggers that fire a round on the pull and again on the release of the trigger. Has anyone used them? Can anyone give me an actual review or comparison between them?

I'm not looking for Nay Sayers who want to preach on the potential hazards of the triggers.... just some honest reviews and opinions. As they are both $400++++.... I only have the cash to buy one.

[Skans]

I don't own any of these, but have done some research on this and have decided, myself, that I want a Franklin BFS. I want simulated full-auto fire - the closest thing to legal full-auto without the stamp and the price. FWIW, I already have registered full-auto 5.56, but there's something about owning a gun that has the technology to simulate full-auto without being full-auto that I just really like.

I elimintated the Tac Con 3MR because all it really does is allow for a really fast reset - sounds like a learning curve to me and I don't want a learning curve. From what I can tell, it doesn't really simulate full-auto fire.

I've considered the Fostech slide-fire stock. And, I was going to get one...until, the Franklin BFS came out. So, now if I get the BFS, I can keep my nice sturdy stock on my AR and not have to rely on the rifle moving back and forth to simulate full-auto fire.

Now the "cons" with the BFS. You can fire it too fast. If you fire it too fast, the hammer will ride the bolt and not strike the firing pin with enough force to ignite the primer. Waste a round and need to chamber a new round to continue. But, if you can just slow it down a tad, you will effectively get as close to real, controllable full-auto fire as you can, for about $500.

If Franklin Armory could design a feature into their BFS to force the trigger/hammer to reset before the trigger can be released, that would eliminate malfunctions due to operating the trigger too quickly. I hate to buy one now only to find that FA comes out with an improved one for the 2017 shot show! Then again, I'd hate for BATFE to force FA out of business before I can get my hands on one of these!

[nomad636]

Hi SKANS,

I wasn't referencing the Fostech Slide Fire Stock but the Echo Trigger. It is very similar to the Franklin BFS trigger but it is my understanding that another forum member was actually the inventor of the trigger and holds the patent on it.

Like you, I am looking for simulated double tap capabilities for my rifle.

[Skans]

I checked out the Fostech Echo. I don't see how it differs from the FA Binary. Except, it seems to be a bit more expensive and not available. The FA Binary was independently tested. I saw a youtube video on this and was actually glad the guy shows its limitations.

[nomad636]

Skans,

So one of the problems that has been brought up with the BFS trigger is the fact that the hammer will follow the bolt when firing at a high rate of fire and you will have to manually cycle the weapon to recock the trigger. If you watch MAC you will see where he has this issue: https://www.full30.com/video/403c893...98a598640f5654

Also the trigger pull is milspec, so it has a heavy trigger pull and isn't super precise. If you buy the drop in trigger, you will have to shim it or possibly mill your lower reciever in order for it to work properly. OR you can send your lower off to FA and for $125 they will install the trigger for you.

Total cost with install: $525 + Shipping

I called Fostech this morning and spoke with Judd about the Echo trigger. The Echo trigger features Hiperfire springs for light and precise trigger pull, and also the Mossberg Cassette so it will easily drop in to any lower reciever. No milling or shims required. They have also fixed the hammer follow problem that FA has, so you will never have to manually cycle the bolt to engage the trigger.

http://youtu.be/P6_F9_6ZTZg

Total cost: $480

I ended up placing an order for the Fostech. $200 pre-order fee and $280 due upon shipping (sometime in the 3rd qtr of this year).

Although the shipping time is less than perfect and I hate waiting for things... especially for gun parts.... It seemed like it was worth it for me to have a trigger that I won't have issues with. I won't have to shim or mill my receiver and I won't have to cycle my bolt if I am firing "too fast".

Once I receive the ECHO trigger I will be making a youtube video, comparing the rate of fire to my Hiperfire 24C, My Geissele SD3G, a standard milspec trigger and the FA BFS trigger (that my buddy ordered a few weeks ago).

It will be curious to see how all 4 of them compare. It is going to be an expensive range trip........ perhaps I can get an ammunition sponsor?

Regardless though, best of luck on your trigger search. IMHO this is as close to a three round burst or full auto as you can get.

[Skans]

Nomad, if the Fostech Echo was available AND they truly fixed the hammer-follow problem, I would spend the extra and get it.

However, I have seen all too many times when people put money down for a product planned to be out (I've even done it once) and it takes way longer than anticipated or never materializes. One example is the Shrike Beltfed upper receiver. Some folks had to wait many years for delivery. There are other examples in gun industry.

As far as having to shim or fit the trigger system, this is something I think I could easily handle. If it became a problem, I'd buy another cheap lower receiver and see if that worked any better before I'd send it out for fitting. I think they put that information in there to dissuade anyone who is non-mechanical from attempting this where some minor fitting might be necessary.

I called Fostech this morning and spoke with Judd about the Echo trigger. The Echo trigger features Hiperfire springs for light and precise trigger pull, and also the Mossberg Cassette so it will easily drop in to any lower reciever.

This reminded me of the other problem I had with the Echo Trigger - there isn't any of this information on their website. In fact, there is hardly ANY information on their website on how it works or how it eliminates hammer-follow. It's hard for me to plop down that kind of money for a device that isn't being made yet and who's makers have little to no information about it on their website.

[nomad636]

Skans, you bring up some good points regarding the possible amount of time for delivery. I hadn't actually considered that when I ordered it as they gave me an estimated delivery time. Regardless though, good point.

If you do end up going the direction of the Franklin BFS, please put up a post and a review on it. I would love to read about it!

The only reason I can come up with as to why they have such limited information on their website is because it hasn't been fully released yet. but... even that is a lame rationalization. It could be that they have a poor marketing dept. who knows.

[FuzzyKorean]

Nomad,
I purchased the BFS in august last year and recieved one of the first bfs lowers produced and i have had amazing results out of it. Ive been running a bolt carrier weighing around 7 oz. And a stronger carbine buffer spring and i have yet to recieve problematic hammer follow ising that setup. However it will have hammer follow when i use a milspec bcg but all you have to do is charge the handle halfway back and youre back in action. From the videos ive seen, i can get a higher rate of fire than the echo without any troubles. But i try not to use the system for simulated automatic fire but rather a burst style or quick follow up system. Regardless of how i use the system it seems to work well and reliably for any of my uses. Trigger isnt a match grade trigger though. Roughly 6.5 pound pull on mine but it is cleaner than a standard milspec trigger. I have no regrets from my purchase. Works well with my .50 beowulf and .458 socom upper if anyone was interested in unnecessary large bore rapid fire.

[nomad636]

Fuzzy, it's good to hear that you have had positive results with the trigger. Thank you for taking the time to post a reply! Of of the uppers I have is a 6.5 Grendel and I'm going to try and use the new trigger on it. As you have large bore uppers that you use the trigger on, how well does the controlled pair work? Does the amount of muzzle jump cause an issue?

I won't be using the trigger for simulated full auto but for controlled pairs and rapid follow up shots.

Happy Easter.

Nomad636

[Skans]

Fuzzy, I enjoyed reading your review of the Franklin BFS. The claim of a faster rate of fire intrigues me, but I still have concerns about hammer follow. My first concern on this is the possibility that ATF could reclassify the device as a MG, especially if they can get it to run FA using soft primers.

The second concerns is one that is a little more practical - I don't mind buying a stiffer recoil spring, but I don't want to have to invest in a lightened BCG after dropping $500 too. Still, I have the feeling that once you learn the limitations of the trigger, FAB trigger, it would be pretty easy to learn how ot fire it reliably without having to swap out more parts.

On the other hand, the Franklin trigger is available for purchase and the Echo is not. So, you're gambling $200 in hopes that it will eventually get a call to pay more money to actually receive it.

If I had the money, I'd buy two of the Franklin Binary triggers and place an order for two Echo triggers, knowing that I'd be able to sell off whatever I did receive for the $$$ I have into it. The risks??? ATF recalling Franklin's trigger and Echo never getting their out to those who pre-ordred.

Because I don't have that kind of money sitting around, I'm going to choose one. I went on the USPTO's website to read the patent information on the Echo - the description was impressive. I have no idea why their marketing material on their website is much weaker than the information provided in their patent.

So, I think I'm now leaning toward the Echo, but Fuzzy, your description of the Binary is compelling also.

PS: When are either of these companies going to make one of these things for the MP5?

[nomad636]

Skans, Fuzzy, to be totally honest, I'm not worried about the faster rate of fire with the BFS as my intent for the trigger is not going to be mag dumps... but rather controlled pairs (Double Taps) when pig hunting. I am concerned about the BFS not holding a patent and the potential lawsuit that could be filed by Fostech regarding patent infringement... also the BFS doesn't have an accepted letter from the ATF like the Echo does.

Carrier follow is also a concern of mine. If I'm dumping $400-$500 on a trigger and then I have to purchase a second BCG $100 or more and lighter buffer springs, and perhaps a lighter buffer as well..... well the $80 cost break on the BFS doesn't make up the difference in extra parts and pieces. Also, what does that do to the timing of the rifle if you want to shoot steel cased ammo? It would seem to me that by speeding up the timing of the BCG, you aren't letting the cases cool enough for extraction and this could cause issues.

The next concern that I have is longevity. It is my understanding that the BFS has VERY tight tolerances. What happens if during a 3gun course something shifts a 1/1000th of an inch? Does the trigger fail to work?

The link below is the review that Iraqveteran8888 did on the Echo.

https://youtu.be/PYThNUVZrYM

The link below is the review that MAC did on the BFS

https://youtu.be/UVJHVqgXRVI

After watching both videos each having first time users behind the trigger... the echo doesn't have near the problems that the BFS does... although it would appear that Fuzzy is right and the BFS can achieve a higher rate of fire.

Just food for thought guys. Thank you for weighing in!

[Fishbed77]

None of the above.

Stick to a Geissele product and avoid the novelty triggers.

[Skans]

The Geissele triggers are a completely different thing. If you are looking for a very light, precision trigger, then I'm sure these triggers are fine. But, if you want the closest thing to burst-fire or full-auto, then the Binary and Echo triggers are about the closest thing you will find with the ability to stay on target.

The '86 Machinegun ban really sticks in my craw. It has essentially eliminated the possibility of anyone who doesn't have $10,000 at their disposal to ever experience it or train with such a weapon. These two relatively new trigger systems give those who want it something close to a machine gun for 5% of the ridiculous cost. Some of us who were lucky enough to buy a full-auto, or tri-burst gun when they cost less than what many quality semi-auto rifles sell for today. And, even though I have an AC556, it's now too valuable for me to shoot it like I would a $700 AR with one of these 2-shot triggers installed. Also, it would be interesting to me to compare the 2-shot trigger to genuine tri-burst and full-auto gun from a rate of fire and accuracy standpoint.

So, I'm going to get one of these systems too, I've decided. Leaning toward the Echo, but unsure about putting money on deposit until who-knows-when.

[Skans]

So, I decided to get in line by placing an order for the Fostech Echo. I see that they are supposed to start shipping this month (April). Does anyone know if any have been delivered yet?

[nomad636]

So, I decided to get in line by placing an order for the Fostech Echo. I see that they are supposed to start shipping this month (April). Does anyone know if any have been delivered yet?

Have you called Fostech? When I placed my order a few weeks ago, they told me that I would be looking at a ship date at the start of the 3rd quarter of the year. So sometime in July.

I haven't heard of anyone receiving their orders yet though.

[Skans]

I suppose I could call them, but now I know that I'm in line after you, so I shouldn't expect anything until July. That's a long time to wait. Just need to put it out of mind for awhile, I suppose.

[nomad636]

That's what I did. I figure it will get here when it gets here and I can't do anything to speed it up.

[Skans]

I just want one of these triggers before we get into the national election cycle. I think there's a good chance that if Hillary is elected, she will have BATFE outlaw further production, label them DD's or AOW's and require that the ones already purchased be registered on a Form 1. If that happens, that will be the end of them. Remember Bill Clinton and the USAS-12.

[nomad636]

That is my thought as well. Get it while the gettin is good.

[nomad636]

I wanted to post an update to you guys. I just got off the phone with Fostech and asked them if they had started shipping out the triggers. I was told (by a very polite lady) that triggers hadn't started shipping yet but that they should within the next few weeks. There was a manufacturing kink that held things up. I gave her my order number (order was placed at the end of Feb.) and was told to expect my trigger to arrive in June or July sometime.

Country Boys Outdoors took the Fostech guys on a helicopter pig hunt a few weeks ago and should be airing footage to youtube and the sportsmans channel come June. There is supposed to be some solid footage of the trigger in action.

All we can do now is anxiously await the arrival of them.

[Skans]

Thanks for the update. "Manufacturing kink" though, makes me a bit uneasy. Hopefully this company didn't rush the process and try to bring something to market that isn't ready. Anyway, they have my deposit too. We'll just have to wait and see if they live up to their word that they will start shipping them in April.

[nomad636]

I'm assuming the manufacturing kink that I was told about is the same one that was referenced in Iraqveteran8888's video review of it.

[Skans]

If Fostech actually starts shipping significant numbers this month, then I will think the Echo is the real deal. If they don't ship any this month, then I'm going to wonder if they are going to be like: the Reliant pepperbox pistol, Shrike, and many other gun products that have problems delivering. I'm really hoping that won't be the case.

[Skans]

It's now May 11 - has anyone actually received an Echo Trigger yet?

[nomad636]

I sent Fostech an e-mail. Please see correspondence and reply below. This was on May 2nd.

To Fostech:
"Good Afternoon,

I wanted to follow up as to the status of the Echo Trigger orders. Previously when I had visited your website (and placed my order) the anticipated ship date was the first of April, but when I view your website now there is no anticipated shipping date; rather a vague statement about shipment commencing during the 2nd quarter of 2016. I'm rather nervous as to the removal of the shipment date and as to the potential of these triggers not actually shipping. I also saw a statement on your website about current orders not shipping until the 4th quarter of 2016.

Please give me an update as to when early orders will be shipping."

From Fostech:
"First triggers to start shipping out this month. We did have a delay in one of the parts did not come in as scheduled. However, the 4th quarter is for those customers that are ordering today. If you have an early order you should be within a 30-45 day delivery window."