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Old July 1, 2014, 12:53 PM   #1
tateconcepts
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Primers too crushed to fire and removing scored, sized casings - Thoughts?

Hello all,

I have been 'fiddling' with a Lee Pro 1000 (yes I know) in too many ways that one to get 1000 rounds of 223 through it. I'm tired of fighting the primer system alongside the darn Pro Auto Disk Dispenser and Adjustable Charge Bar. While I know the Adjustable Charge Bar does work correctly, it won't work correctly if you have to muscle a cartridge from the first stage as it wasn't quite sized correctly and in turn, some extra powder falls from a small ridge inside the Universal Charging Die (making too high of a charge when I am already pushing the envelope). It's also annoying that it is scratching my brass! : Any thoughts on getting those deep scratches out anyone?

While that is one of the issues, does anyone have a thought on what I can do with some of this brass. I have all the Lyman top notch stuff to compensate for Lee's inadequacies (like volume vs weight in dispensing powder)(I calculated VMD and that darn Pro Auto Disk still dropped too much powder at times because of it's design, even though the Adjustable Charge Bar was present and tuned into the VMD. I also sent Lee a fix for the VMD calculation program that was made in 2005 and does not work on 64bit systems to help some folks out (the developer wrote it in old Visual Basic that is since dead, therefore it does not run on any new Windows 7/8 64 bit systems as they all are now - even Linux and Mac OS Apple systems are 64bit).

Therefore I have resulted to using my Lyman Gen 6 which gets it right on the money each time and is not affected by the press movement, but it's primer seating is driving me nuts. Some go in smooth, some go in with some force then seat. I don't like this at all. Upon examination of the primers - I see some are just slightly crushed on a beveled side but are level. The others look flattened out. What is the limits on what will fire and what will not. I don't have brass and primers galore to test this right now. I think the first will probably fire but the second - I'm not so sure about.

I also, I know about the steel wool but I need something to hold the brass in place which I sand it. Fine grain emery cloth perhaps? This scoring looks bad. I know it is because I did not use lubricant on the second run through the press but as they were sized already, I didn't think that was necessary. If you need pictures. I can provide them.

Happy loading and reloading folks!

One last thing, anyone know of a powder dispenser that works in GRAINS and not in the dumb volume sense that Lee has and will work with their Pro 1000? I really like the Pro 1000 simplicity. It has served me well over the years and I have owned on their products but with 223, 300 BLK and 308 WIN - this damn thing is a bastard due to design and I hate lubing all the casings with Hornady One Shot prior as it will cause some to enter the mouth of the case and attract powder, powder that needs to go to the bottom of the case, not the neck sides.

Thoughts anyone?
Brian
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Old July 1, 2014, 03:25 PM   #2
243winxb
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Change lube to RCBS 2, apply with pad. Lube inside of case neck with RCBS nylon brush. Use very little lube inside the neck. Have you removed the military crimp from the primer pockets? If the brass has crimped primers? I guess you have seen this link? Lee Help http://leeprecision.net/support/inde...roduct-support I gave up on Lee years ago.
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Old July 2, 2014, 10:24 AM   #3
tateconcepts
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My apologies everyone, I did not clarify this enough. I use a Lyman Case Prep on all my brass. If there is a military crimp it is removed during the reaming, pocket cleaning and case uniform of the primer pockets.

My question is what is too crushed of a primer? I know what really crushed primer is but how crushed can one be to fire without me testing them? I will post a photo in a moment and see if I can get some feedback on these. These are CCI Rifle primers.

Also, DOES ANYONE have any suggestions for removing scratches left by the scoring of brass when they went through the sizing die again with minor dirt? I can't tumble them and get these out, I tried and they still show. If I had something to attach to the casing and hold it still, I'm confident some fine grit emery cloth would work and then a polish in the tumbler (once I plug the casing as these are primed brass). It's annoying I know but crap happens sometimes and I need to clean these up as they are part of a production run and I want to move this brass to move in the new stuff.

Regards,
BT
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Old July 2, 2014, 02:34 PM   #4
243winxb
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Polish the brass by spinning, using a Lee lock stud & shell holder. Steel wool or fine emery paper may work. http://leeprecision.com/case-conditi...rimming-tools/ Crushed primers will fire as long as the firing pin hits in the middle of the primer. Seated to deep is not a big problem as most firing pin protrude about .050" An inertia firing pin will go till it makes contact with the primer in 1911 type pistols.
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Old July 2, 2014, 06:01 PM   #5
higgite
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I don't have a Lee Universal Charging die to look at, but I'm surprised that any charging die would have an internal ridge that would catch powder and drop it randomly. Sounds like a defect. Have you asked Lee about it? FWIW, that die is intended for use with a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, not the Auto Pro.

As for the brass scratches, I wouldn't sweat the cosmetic appearance, just load them and shoot them. That is, unless they are deep enough to be a safety concern. Then I'd toss them.

The only powder measures that I know of that work on actual weight are those similar to your Lyman. The only ones that I've seen that will work on a progressive press measure volume, not weight. I wouldn't call that an inadequacy, Lee's or otherwise. Just the nature of the beast. If others know of a weight based measure compatible with progressive presses, hopefully they'll chime in.

If you're the Brian Tate that owns Alliance Ammunition, and if it's not proprietary information, I'm curious, how are the powder charges measured for your remanufactured ammo? By weight? Volume? Both? I've always assumed it's measured by volume on a production line, but you know what they say about assuming.
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Old July 2, 2014, 10:12 PM   #6
chiefr
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Dillon: Problem solved
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Old July 2, 2014, 11:02 PM   #7
Jim Watson
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I know of no volumetric powder measure reading in grains. How could it? Different granulations have different densites, which Lee tries to account for by their VMD, which is in the mixed units of grains per cubic centimeter, and graduating their measures in ccs. But it is not very accurate.
All others are graduated arbitrarily and it is up to you to produce a calibration chart or curve.
(Not counting the Lyman 55 which is said to retain the graduations of the Ideal No 5, which was meant for black powder.)

If you ran gritty cases through your sizing die, you very likely scratched up the die itself, not just some cases. It will mar future brass from here on out until polished smooth.

I have not primed on a press other than a progressive CH or Dillon in many years. The Lee hand tool is adequate for most purposes.
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Old July 4, 2014, 05:26 PM   #8
tateconcepts
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To chiefr,

To Hornady Ammo Plant with Bullet and Case Feeder - problem solved.

I feel Dillon is overpriced and too proprietary for my tastes. Plus, I don't get massive Cabela's bucks on their products.
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Old July 4, 2014, 05:55 PM   #9
tateconcepts
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Sorry everyone, I sent this reply by email over a day ago and for some reason or another it didn't send - so here it is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks 243winxb!

I did forget about the lock stud! I have moved on to use of my Hornady Ammo Plant and said goodbye to the Pro 1000 unless I'm running pistol. I had the Ammo Plant set up for another caliber therefore I decided the Pro 1000 was easier to change out (which it is) for a different caliber. I also want to make a correction, this is not the Universal Die but the Rifle Charging Die. It does have a ridge at the top of the internal charging tube, that's just how it works to dispense when a cartridge is inserted up inside it and it pushes against the (Pro) Auto-Disk Dispenser.

I am indeed who you say I am higgite. I am a perfectionist (as I must be in my trade)also by the type 06 license that we are issued. I thought I'd see what the critics say about a few primers before I toss them out, I suppose I likely know better that most anyway so I will go with my gut feeling and just toss them. They probably don't matter (there are only five or so out of 1000) and I know the brass doesn't matter but when they are match - yes everything matters. Since my brass COMES PRIMED - I don't get much of a choice do I?

As for the last person, may I ask why you inquire of this and how it was relevant to the thread? Sometimes we do load by volume, you have to! (Actually I don't HAVE TO - My Lyman Gen 6 that replaced the Gen 5 does so by weight only and it's HIGHLY ACCURATE.) We calculate all 8# and 4# powders for VMD and then adjust appropriately as would any manufacturer. This is the typical process for range ammunition. For match ammunition like these, it's measured in weight and verified on the Lyman Gen 6 each time (which only works by weight as mentioned before). If you were aware of what we sell - 70% of our products are through our vendors and the other 30% are our own. Our website is for consumer overruns - as I DO NOT SELL our product to consumers PERIOD. They are a tax ordeal at both the federal and local tax levels. YES there is an 11% federal excise tax if you just reload. NO we don't use remanufactured brass (where did you infer that from and I refrain from you using that term otherwise). I do use remanufactured brass for test loads in order to not waste my components however. We ONLY buy new primed/unprimed brass! 1000 primed 9mm are $135 and that's with shipping. If you want to know where, that is proprietary as they will need to see your type 06 specifically anyway. It's not easy building relationships with LE and private security vendors therefore I don't appreciate the use of 'remanufactured' as we use new brass for our clients as much as possible. If it's range ammo, we have been known to use once fired Lake City brass but that's the only way it comes. It is also HIGHLY INSPECTED BOTH VISUALLY AND WITH VARIOUS EQUIPMENT.

Thanks again all on the tip for polishing up the occasional scored brass. No there is nothing in the die nor is the die scratched. I have several sets of the same calibers anyway. Every now and then, some random brass shaving ends up on these just after a batch gets lubed and behold, the ocassional scratch. Sure, I know they shoot fine and quite accurately and consistently too, but that doesn't mean the customer likes this on match casings! I forget about Lee tools these days. I guess that's because I own just about every Lee press with accessory that there is but that stud. I always hated Lee's case trimming methods. I went straight to Lyman and never looked back. Now that I'm on a small CNC I even forget about it occasionally! Therefore I did pick one of those Lee devices yesterday. Took the scratches right out and then was polished out as usual in an hour or so! As for the primers, I think I can answer my own questions.

For those that are curious, we have a full ballistics testing facility for our products and we test everything from velocity to energy, even penetration. WE DO NOT SELL OUR PRODUCTS TO CONSUMERS! IF WE DID YOU WOULD BE BUYING A PALATE OF IT AT A TIME AND WOULD NEED BOTH A 01 FFL DEALERS LICENSE ALONG WITH A STATE TAX AND RESALE CERTIFICATE. Sales taxes and small change are NOT my thing. I don't do this as a hobby and haven't for some time now. Additionally, since most of our products are not manufactured by us - I also don't need to be concerned with anything other than recalls (hence we dropped Olin last month permanently that helps greatly). Thanks again for the stud suggestion, I need to get back to the shop for shipping and deliveries and then off to the grill and fun for today with the family. Thanks again everyone!

I sure wish I could get this dumb 22LR out of my way, I get more of this junk than I know what to do with and the little man's profit bubble is going to break within the month anyway, I've know about that for almost three months already. Unbelievable, but people want it.

Take care everyone and happy hunting / shooting!
BT
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Old July 5, 2014, 10:05 AM   #10
higgite
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BT, please see below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tateconcepts
As for the last person, may I ask why you inquire of this and how it was relevant to the thread?

-- That person is me. I inquired because I was just curious and we don't get the opportunity to interact with many, if any, manufacturers here. At least, not that I'm aware of. Sorry if I offended you with my question. Thanks for answering it.

Sometimes we do load by volume, you have to! (Actually I don't HAVE TO - My Lyman Gen 6 that replaced the Gen 5 does so by weight only and it's HIGHLY ACCURATE.) We calculate all 8# and 4# powders for VMD and then adjust appropriately as would any manufacturer. This is the typical process for range ammunition. For match ammunition like these, it's measured in weight and verified on the Lyman Gen 6 each time (which only works by weight as mentioned before).

-- Thanks again for answering my question.

If you were aware of what we sell - 70% of our products are through our vendors and the other 30% are our own. Our website is for consumer overruns - as I DO NOT SELL our product to consumers PERIOD.

-- That wasn't obvious to me on your website. I assumed the "add to cart" button was available to anyone since I had access to it.

They are a tax ordeal at both the federal and local tax levels. YES there is an 11% federal excise tax if you just reload.

-- Okay.

NO we don't use remanufactured brass (where did you infer that from and I refrain from you using that term otherwise).

-- I didn't mention remanufactured brass. I asked about your remanufactured ammo, and I didn't infer it. I read it on your website description of your line of 9mm ammo.

"Alliance makes a first-quality product, in a limited line of popular specifications, to bring you the benefit of remanufacturing efficiencies that provide value."


I do use remanufactured brass for test loads in order to not waste my components however. We ONLY buy new primed/unprimed brass! 1000 primed 9mm are $135 and that's with shipping. If you want to know where, that is proprietary as they will need to see your type 06 specifically anyway.

-- No problem. I don't have a type 06, and not sure what that is, and I don't care where you buy your brass.

It's not easy building relationships with LE and private security vendors therefore I don't appreciate the use of 'remanufactured' as we use new brass for our clients as much as possible. If it's range ammo, we have been known to use once fired Lake City brass but that's the only way it comes. It is also HIGHLY INSPECTED BOTH VISUALLY AND WITH VARIOUS EQUIPMENT.

Again, sorry if I offended you. You can be assured it won't happen again.
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