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Old November 25, 2012, 10:17 AM   #51
Mello2u
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In reference to defensive handguns: "They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."

Concise & accurate, I'm going to use this response in the future.
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:59 AM   #52
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Interesting analysis above...

But it's dependent on your point of few. Some of it comes down to cash flow. Say I'm a .40 S&W shooter and I want something more powerful.

Do I purchase a 10mm or a .45 ACP?

I purchase brass in small lots as needed. My first lot of once fired 10mm brass purchased at a gun show did well for years. I almost never purchase brass in 1,000 count lots, due to the cost. Instead, I purchase a few hundred cases a year and reload them more frequently.

Projectiles are different. When it comes down to the end of the month and I have just enough in the budget to purchase 1,000 projectiles, then I purchase .40 caliber in bulk and reload two calibers over multiple platforms...

So, for someone that also shoots a lot of .40 S&W, the 10mm can make a lot of sense, especially since .40 brass is so cheap/free.

My budget doesn't always allow me to buy two calibers in bulk at the same time, so from a perspective of cash flow, I get a lot of bang for my buck shooting 10mm/.40 S&W.

That's one reason why I love reloading. I budget for individual components and can use them in multiple calibers.

Anyway, back to the original post...

For me, I meet quite a lot of .45 snobs. When I bring up the 10mm, they usually don't know what it is, or tell me it's too expensive to shoot. I haven't found that to be the case.

Last edited by testuser; November 25, 2012 at 12:28 PM.
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Old November 25, 2012, 05:55 PM   #53
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When will people stop fighting over handgun calibers, Really people. First no one "wants to be shot.. with anything!" Second, everyone know the best thing for home defense or personal defense is not a handgun its a couple daisy chained claymores! Third comparing military shootings are not accurate unless you plan on carrying the same load. So when people who have never been to Iraq tell me (who has) that the 9mm sucks at shooting people I just ask them how many people they shot to get that data>
News flash 9mm ball kinda sucks,.. .wait another news flash ALL FMJ pistol rounds SUCK!! contrary to popular opinion the .45 with FMJ does not do any better in real shootings than the 9mm. there have been studies done on this so don't argue with me, read the research. Besides who really carries ball anyway? I mean in the military we had to ;ROE, but for Iraq the international law would have allowed us expanding but the Gov, is not going to buy differant type of ammo and than ask the guy your fighting if he has a Genava conventions card! So a few of you have admitted to being caliber snobs, and a few to being gun snobs, me I am a bullet snob. I use the best bullet I can for the given task. Yes I have a 9mm, yes I have a .45, and a .40, .357 sig, .357 mag, .44 mag, .32 acp, couple 22's and I am sure some other stuff.

SO my nightstand gun is a .45 H&K, but if something goes bump in the night I am getting my AR out. But my daily carry gun is a Sig 9mm. the only thing that they have to do is get me to my AR or my 12 Gauge. Remember what Clint Smith says " your handgun is to fight your way to the long gun that you should have not set down to begin with."
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Old November 25, 2012, 06:04 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by stevedscross
Remember what Clint Smith says " your handgun is to fight your way to the long gun that you should have not set down to begin with."
I like Clint, but I don't see how that really applies, outside of a combat environment. I mean come on seriously, how many people walk around(in the USA, before someone mentions Israel, etc) carrying a long arm for SD? I'm sure we'd all wish we had an AR-10, or HK-21, etc when the big shoot out goes down, but I don't think many people CCW one.
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Old November 25, 2012, 07:02 PM   #55
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I'm no snob as I use two calibers, .380acp .45acp everything in between above or below doesn't interest me.
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Old November 26, 2012, 02:12 AM   #56
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I can't wait for a caliber snob to approach me at the range shooting my CCW a .38 snub, and tell me I should get a real gun like a 45acp. Then, I'll laugh and say that's not a real gun, opening up my Pandora's box and see him walk away with his tail between his legs.
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Old November 26, 2012, 02:33 AM   #57
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I can't wait for a caliber snob to approach me at the range shooting my CCW a .38 snub, and tell me I should get a real gun like a 45acp. Then, I'll laugh and say that's not a real gun
Just tell him your carry guns an 88 Magnum, but it shoots THROUGH ranges, so this my BUG, they let me shoot it here.
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Old November 26, 2012, 03:41 AM   #58
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They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
Well, if I was limited to his unknown person's shooting ability I'd probably say the same thing too.
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Old November 26, 2012, 05:49 AM   #59
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Well, if I was limited to his unknown person's shooting ability I'd probably say the same thing too
The person I was quoting in my post is one of the most talented shooters I've ever met. We work together at a gun shop/range/training facility and he is better than any of the professional instructors we have. He works the retail side because he knows more about guns than anyone else on staff and he's a good salesman and an experienced gunsmith. Recently I found out that he's friends with Massad Ayoob and has taken many of his LFI courses. He's even beaten Ayoob several times in straight-up competition. I'll admit, I'm a little in awe of the guy, but I've shot next to him at our range and I've seen how good he is.

But even if the guy I quoted couldn't shoot at all, how is what he said in any way incorrect?
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Old November 27, 2012, 04:02 AM   #60
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I am glad you are captivated by this shooter/instructors/salesman/ all around upstanding citizen’s comment. But I’m not.

Installing confidence with any pistol the student chooses to show up with is a cornerstone of pistol instruction.

What kind of response would Alvin York and Jim Cirillo have to this, instructor’s, comment? Perhaps this comment is taken out of context. And maybe it is good that this man’s name and associated training facility remain unknown for the good of shooting.
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Old November 27, 2012, 06:25 AM   #61
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But even if the guy I quoted couldn't shoot at all, how is what he said in any way incorrect?
On a competition level some misinformation might help them get the edge on there competitors. Just ask Gov Arlond Mr. America 1972.
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Old November 27, 2012, 07:44 AM   #62
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"They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."

This statement should not be taken at face value, it is made with the intention for the listener to spend some time and THINK about it.

As i see it, by saying "they all suck" means all calibers are not perfect, each has it's own performance levels and limitations. No one round does it all. Learn your ammo.

By picking "the one you shoot best" means not only knowing what ammo you can handle but knowing your gun and knowing why it works best for you. Learn your gun/firearm/weapon.

This also includes knowing everything you can learn how the gun and the ammo and you the shooter work as a system and understanding that power, potential and limitations. Know what you are doing.

It's amazing how just ten word can say so much, if you just stop and think about them.
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Old November 27, 2012, 10:49 AM   #63
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I think you're both missing the point here. Remember, he was talking about the 9mm, .40, and .45; and the point is that the actual difference between the three is very small as far as terminal ballistics are concerned. Too often people pick the .45 thinking its far superior to the .40 and the 9mm; or they pick the .40 thinking its far superior to the 9mm. But that's just not the case. And they are all vastly inferior compared to a rifle such as an AR-15.
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Old November 27, 2012, 10:57 AM   #64
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I am glad you are captivated by this shooter/instructors/salesman/ all around upstanding citizen’s comment. But I’m not.

Installing confidence with any pistol the student chooses to show up with is a cornerstone of pistol instruction.

What kind of response would Alvin York and Jim Cirillo have to this, instructor’s, comment? Perhaps this comment is taken out of context. And maybe it is good that this man’s name and associated training facility remain unknown for the good of shooting.
He didn't make the comment in a class setting. It was simply a private conversation. And, like I said, he doesn't even work as an instructor anymore; and that may be because he's not as good an instructor as he is a shooter.

But, as I posted above, his comment is still pretty accurate; there's not a lot of difference between the 9mm, .40, and .45 and you should be prepared to put multiple shots center mass because none of these rounds are magical man-stoppers.
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Old November 27, 2012, 11:56 AM   #65
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But it's dependent on your point of few. Some of it comes down to cash flow. Say I'm a .40 S&W shooter and I want something more powerful.

Do I purchase a 10mm or a .45 ACP?
True - however - I'm not a .40 S&W shooter.
I am a .45 LC shooter though.
.452" 230 grain lead bullets work in both .45acp and .45LC in my guns.
I got "lucky" w/my Blackhawk .45 Colt.
The bore and chamber mouths all slug the same - .451".
I've also got a Winchester Trapper in .45LC that eats the 230 grain like candy.

Pretty much the same as your method.

I stock one "standard" bulk for both for "plinker" or "shoot em up" rounds.
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Old November 27, 2012, 11:58 AM   #66
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Dont matter how big it is if you cant hit anything with it. Shoot what your comfortable with.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:01 PM   #67
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I think you're both missing the point here. Remember, he was talking about the 9mm, .40, and .45; and the point is that the actual difference between the three is very small as far as terminal ballistics are concerned. Too often people pick the .45 thinking its far superior to the .40 and the 9mm; or they pick the .40 thinking its far superior to the 9mm. But that's just not the case. And they are all vastly inferior compared to a rifle such as an AR-15.


OH! I thought that I was agreeing with you.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:39 PM   #68
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While I don't have anything against a 9mm for CCW as it is adequate for personnel, those of us who take our pistols out into the woods as protection from thick skin, possibly dangerous animals don't find the 9mm a useful caliber. Further, I handload and there isn't much cost advantage in handloading 9mm over my 357mag, 40, 45, and 10mm handguns so I haven't a need for a 9mm for cost reasons. Lastly, I don't like the idea of training on a platform or caliber that I won't be actually using so a 22lr or 9mm training weapon isn't in the cards either.

My daily CCW piece is a Glock 23 stuffed with 180grn Speer Gold Dots which is great for a defense against an attacker. However, in the Rocky Mountains, my 'walkabout' sidearm is my custom Glock 20L loaded with 200grn hardcast. At just over 1,400fps and over 870ft/lbs ME, these handloads provide protection against anything I might encounter. Best of all, with the magwell removed, my custom G20L actually weighs less loaded with 17+1 rds than my 6" barreled S&W 686 with only 6 rds of 158grn 357mag ammo on board so it's the logical choice for my woods gun.

I practice regularly with both my G23 and G20L at the range where I also shoot my 45acp Springfield Range Officer for fun. Neither the 40 or the 45 have the trajectory for longer range shooting that I regularly practice at. Anything over 100yd for the 40 and over 50yd for the 45 produce trajectory drops that I don't like so I limit both to those distances. However, my custom longslide and my hot 10mm 165grn loads gives me a flat trajectory so that I can shoot accurately at our steel plates at 200yds.

I've come to practice at ranges of at least 50yds and farther exclusively because it helps me pay attention to my fundamentals. At those ranges any mistakes are magnified dramatically so I'm constantly having to watch my grip, sight picture, and trigger management. With my aim small, miss small philosophy, I work on the fundamentals constantly so I'm always sure of my proficiency.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:45 PM   #69
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OH! I thought that I was agreeing with you.
Ha, sorry about that; I guess I missed your point instead.
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Old November 27, 2012, 03:21 PM   #70
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In reference to defensive handguns: "They all suck, so pick the one you shoot best."
This is probably one of the most accurate statements I have read in recent memory. With very few exceptions, a handgun is primarily a defensive weapon, although still very lethal.

I take heat now and then for my choice of the 9mm, I have become immune to it, I just shrug my shoulders and say "Okay" or something and let the him think he got me. If He/she values their own opinion so much to attack my caliber choice, there is very little point in me showing my disagreement of it.
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Old November 27, 2012, 03:29 PM   #71
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Old November 27, 2012, 03:42 PM   #72
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Yep, that will do it right there.
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Old November 27, 2012, 04:09 PM   #73
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Somebody will want one in a 8 shot wheel gun or a double stack semi for CCW
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Old November 27, 2012, 04:17 PM   #74
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You run into them every so often, but I just smiled and nodded simply stating that I'm more comfortable with a 9mm and that I respectfully disagree.

I have a Glock that can shoot a 9mm with 800+lbs of power. I'm a Dillon snob.
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Old November 27, 2012, 05:23 PM   #75
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I wouldn't want Double stack. As I recall the case would have issues, so single stack works for me. Maybe Wilson will make a nice 8 round mag for it...
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