Trying to explain the differences between "normal" up to magnum rounds. help please?

[Kimio]

Okay, I have a friend who is interested in shooting, and is looking at revolvers right now. He's wanting to know the differences between a normal .38, spcl and Mag.

The way I was told is that a spcl is a beefed up version of the associated round, specifically it is loaded to fire at a higher velocity and are usually share similar dimensions but may be longer than the lesser round. Also, you can take say a revolver chambered in .38 spl and fire normal .38 S&W' through it without worry but not the other way around.

Am I missing anything here? I don't want to give him the wrong information since doing so could potentially be dangerous.

[Clark]

There is a pattern to the lengths.

.337" diameter 32 S&W long [.920" 15kpsi] -> 32 H&R mag [1.075" 21kcup] -> 327 Fed Mag [1.200" 45 kpsi]

.379" diameter 38 special [1.155" 17kpsi] -> 357 mag [ 1.290" 35kpsi]

.457" diameter 44 special [1.160" 15.5kpsi] -> 44 mag [1.285" 36kpsi]

.480" diameter 45 Colt [1.285" 14kpsi] -> 454 Casull [1.383" 65kpsi]

[Jimro]

I don't know anyone routinely shooting 38 S&W any more.

If you have a 357 Magnum, you can safely fire 38 Special rounds through it. Just make sure you clean the cylinders thoroughly before firing any 357 ammunition, as the 38 Special leaves a small gap that can foul. A chamber that has bad fouling from shooting 38 Special may "grip" a 357 brass a tad too tightly and end up with excess pressure or a failure to extract.

Jimro

[Unclenick]

Kimio,

Yes and no. You are actually mentioning 3 cartridges when you bring the word "Magnum" into the picture, so you need some history. The full name of the cartridge you are looking at is the .38 Smith & Wesson Special (often written .38 S&W Spec. or most often just .38 Special). The ".38" in the name refers to the approximate diameter of the gun's chamber(s), so .38" is close to the outside diameter of the case body, and not the bullet. The bullet is narrower and is actually close to .36 caliber, being the successor line to the old Navy .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers.

The .38 Special is a larger case capacity version of its predecessor cartridge, the .38 Smith & Wesson, which uses a .361" diameter bullet and has a 0.775" long case that is very slightly wider case (a few thousandths wider), but otherwise has the same rim width. The .38 Special uses a slightly narrower 0.357" diameter bullet and case body, but the case body is 1.145" long, making a lot more room for black powder (when that was still in use). The .357 Magnum is a successor cartridge to the .38 Special with an even longer and larger capacity case, 1.290" long and is designed to operate at over twice the pressure of the .38 Special. Unlike it's predecessors, it it named after the bullet diameter rather than the chamber diameter. Then, finally there is the .357 Maximum, which is yet another generation predecessor with an even longer 1.600" case and even higher operating pressure (under current standards).

Basically, the .38 S&W, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .357 Maximum is the order in which power goes from lower to higher. The .357 Magnum's higher pressure loadings were originally developed in .38 Special heavy frame revolvers, but because that pressure is too high for light .38 Special revolvers, the made the case longer to prevent it from chambering in a .38 Special chamber.

As a result, the .357 Maximum can fire a .357 Magnum or a .38 Special. The .38 S&W's 0.007" wider cases cannot be expected to fit. The .357 Magnum chamber can also shoot the .38 Special, but the .357 Maximum is too long for it and, again, the .38 s&W is too wide to fit. The .38 Special can only fire the .38 Special as both the .357 Magnum and Maximum are too long for it and the .38 S&W is too wide. However, the .38 Special comes in +P and +P+ (for law enforcement) loads that can generally be fired in modern .38 Special revolvers as they don't exceed the .38 Special proof load pressure, though a steady diet of them is not recommended in light .38 Special revolvers as it will eventually fatigue and stretch the frames of some of them. The old S&W Airweight snubnose revolvers were particularly vulnerable to this and I would not use +P or +P+ loads in them at all.

[m&p45acp10+1]

.38 S&W is shorter than the .38 spcl. Though the .38 S&W is a larger diameter, and will not chamber in a .38 spcl. If hand loading accuracy would be horrid trying to fire .357 out of .38 S&W. Note that the .38 Colt New Police is similar to the .38 S&W with a flat nose bullet. Round nosed .38 S&W will not chamber in the New Police They stick out of the cylinder a bit. I own an old Colt revolver in .38 Colt New Police. They did not want to put S&W on the gun so they made the NP round.

The .357 Mag is a .38 spcl that is longer, and loaded to a higher velocity. With that the pressure is higher as well. .38 spcl will chamber, and shoot just fine in a .357 Magnum. The round was made longer to keep it from being loaded into a gun that would be destroyed by the higher pressure of .357 mag.

[Water-Man]

You can fire a .38spl in a .357mag, but not the other way around.

[Kimio]

Thank you everyone, that was extremely helpful.

[dacaur]

The ONLY thing that makes a "magnum" round a "magnum" is the name. There is no specific "power level" or length that makes it a "magnum". The .38special/ .357mag and .44special/.44mag are unique cases where they did in fact lengthen the case to make it more powerful, but for the most case, a "magnum" is just a part of the name. (there are lots of non-magnums that are much more powerful than "magnums".

As for your question, while there ARE some cartridges that can be fired in other calibers, there is NOT ant kind of "rule of thumb" to tell you what is OK to shoot in what based on name. You have to either know, or find out from someone that does know (in person or here on the net).

[Lost Sheep]

The ONLY thing that makes a "magnum" round a "magnum" is the name. There is no specific "power level" or length that makes it a "magnum". The .38special/ .357mag and .44special/.44mag are unique cases where they did in fact lengthen the case to make it more powerful, but for the most case, a "magnum" is just a part of the name. (there are lots of non-magnums that are much more powerful than "magnums".

As for your question, while there ARE some cartridges that can be fired in other calibers, there is NOT ant kind of "rule of thumb" to tell you what is OK to shoot in what based on name. You have to either know, or find out from someone that does know (in person or here on the net).

"What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." W. Shakespeare, "Romeo and Juliet"

The 45 Schofield is a shorter version of the 45 Colt (a.k.a. 45 Long Colt) which itself, when lengthened by Dick Casull, is now known as the 454 Casull, which, when lengthened, became the 460 Smith & Wesson Magnum.

The 44 Russian is shorter than the 44 Special, is shorter than the 44 Magnum.

The "Magnum" name is just that, a name. It really means nothing to revolvers. The "Magnum" name, when used with rifle cartridges usually means there is a headspacing belt around the cartridge, but that is beyond the scope of your original inquiry.

While its reality is ephemeral, the name does carry some meaning, in that it denotes a more powerful version of a previously existing cartridge. Except when it doesn't. The .41 Magnum is a cartridge that has no "standard" version.

All this means is that the "magnum" moniker is one of those terms that means what the majority of people THINK it means and has no little formal definition.

As far as finding out what cartridge will fit in what chambers (other than reading what is engraved or stamped on the gun), SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) is a voluntary association founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and establishes dimensional, performance and pressure standards for small arms ammunition in the U.S. But their information is a little difficult for the novice to sort through. Wikipedia is a wealth of information that is more digestible, as is this forum.

Good luck to you and your friend.

Lost Sheep

p.s. Thanks to Bossman (post 10). Yes, the power levels are significantly different.

[bossman]

To me the difference is night and day on off the shelf ammo. Go down to Wally world and buy a box of 38 spl and .357 magnum and the rounds will be nothing alike. Standard 38 spl will feel like a pop gun compared to the .357 magnum.

Yes I know some high dollar self defense ammo can bring them closer together and I know reloading can also do this. But as for most store bought ammo it's night and day.

[Unclenick]

If we've moved beyond the OP on the .36 caliber guns to the broader question, the dictionary says the word Magnum is a neuter of the latin Magnus, meaning great. One should therefore not expect a magnum cartridge to be of wimpy potential as compared to typical cartridges of the same caliber. The term refers to the capacity of the case, just as the oversize (1.5 liter) bottles of a particular wine are referred to as a magnum of that wine. But as to it having any particular pressure or power associated with it, there no such thing because many different powder levels may be loaded into a magnum case.

The use of the term in firearms started, I think, with the H&H line of belted rifle cartridges, just because they were larger and more powerful than average rifle cartridges at the time. Today it includes a lot of non-belted cases, too, like the Winchester Short Magnums and the .300 Remington Ultra-Magnum. So it's not any particular design type, nor does it need not be an outgrowth of parent cartridge. That is just what happens to be the case with the most common straight wall revolver cartridges, though, again, that's not always the case. The .41 Remington Magnum, for example, is a stand-alone design. It's just not a mild cartridge as revolver and pistol cartridges go, so it fulfills the notion that potentially higher than average power levels may be extracted from it.

[Sevens]

The .32 H&R Magnum continues to be the ONE so-named round that really let's down on the idea of what a "Magnum" round is supposed to be. Certainly, more powerful than it's predecessors in the same cartridge diameter, but it neither produces the velocity nor the maximum pressure that "Magnum" rounds are 99% associated with.

It so very much should have been named the .32 H&R Special. Really.

[Unclenick]

I almost made mention of that funny exception. I agree it should have been called a "Special" so that the .327 Federal could have taken the .32 Magnum name. It deserves it so much more. But I think H&R's marketing people just figured "Magnum" would sell better and, of course, they got their design to SAAMI first.