1911 going "full auto"?

[Creature]

I saw this happen once a long time ago. And it can be very scary for every one in the vicinity.

I have heard that this problem can be a result of kitchen table gun-smithing. I have also heard that poor QC has let a NIB 1911 with this problem leave the factory floor to reach the public before.

But I was wondering if normal wear and tear on the the sear and disconnect can cause a 1911 to eventually, over time, "go full auto"?

And if so, is there a way to check for this problem when looking over a 1911 at the gun shop before actually purchasing it?

[hoytinak]

My fathers Colt Commander fired off two rounds with one pull of the trigger once. It was still fairly new with too. Not sure what caused it.

[azredhawk44]

I've "doubled" occasionally with a G21 and a 1911, but it had to do more with attempting to ride the trigger as close to the reset as possible.

Any pistol that does more than "double" needs to be unloaded, put in its box and taken to a gunsmith pretty quickly. Any witnesses who see it need to be assured that it is a malfunction and not a modification... if it happens on a real shooting range, tell the RSO about it and your immediate intentions so you have a reputable witness.

People have been sent to jail for this stuff.

[Don P]

Buying a Collectible USGI Model 1911

On this page you will Find lots of helpful hints for making a purchase of a USGI Model 1911. Enjoy!

Percentage of Blue/Finish Remaining

Mr. Karash was kind enough to build this spread sheet to help calculate the percentage of remaining bluing or finish on a Model 1911 or 1911-A1. This is a aide for the collector and does not guarantee that the numbers you generate with your input will be accepted by all. There is no written or verbal warranty implied. Click here to download. Regards, Ty Moore
Download File Now!

Buying a used 1911
By D. Kamm

Other important links:
**1911 Function Check**
**Disassembly**

When considering the purchase of a U.S.G.I or other used 1911-type pistol, one fact must bear in mind: regardless of condition, they are all used. Even if it's supposedly like new in the box, somebody else still previously owned it. Maybe just the government, maybe the war vet who bought it home, maybe ten bajillion other collectors before you. In any event, when inspecting a firearm with an eye for possible acquisition you'll need to determine its true condition. This applies not only to the usual items (remaining original finish, correct parts and markings, etc.) but also its mechanical condition. You certainly don't want to buy a gun that's only useful as a paperweight or wall hanger, even if you don't intend to ever actually fire it. Mechanical condition also affects value, for obvious reasons. Even if the pistol appears to be in like-new shape, if it has suffered some sort of damage or isn't in safe working order it won't be worth much to anybody.

The following information, while pertaining mostly to USGI guns is still applicable to any used 1911-type pistol, commercial or military.

Initial inspection

The first thing to look at is the overall condition of the outside of the pistol, including underneath the grips (take a screwdriver with you when you go shopping). Things to check for:

*Original finish and correct parts. Non-original finish, incorrect parts or obvious modifications are something to be wary of.

*Correct assembly. I've seen several 1911s where the mainspring housing pin and hammer pin were switched, which is easy to do and a sign of incompetent assembly. While in itself not a big deal and easily rectified, it may be a sign that somebody was messing with things they shouldn't. Check that the plunger tube and grip screw bushings are securely staked in the frame.

*Finish wear. If the finish is worn in the usual areas (front strap, sharp edges, etc.) there's nothing to alarmed over. However, lack of finish in areas that don't normally see wear, when the other high-wear areas are fine indicates something isn't right. Be advised however that some areas typically show finish wear for reasons that new collectors may not recognize. An example is on the right side of the frame in front of the serial number. Often the finish will be worn in that location because of the brass flap hold-down button on the M1912 leather holster abrading it over time (a sewn-in piece of leather protected the pistol from the brass button, but the pressure eventually wore the finish anyway). Another example is the front left side of the dust cover, which also receives an abnormal amount of contact wear from the rough leather inside the holster.

*Rust, pitting, or corrosion. The three are different forms of damage, but they are all a bad thing. Rust is obvious, a reddish-brown crusty matter resulting from exposure to moisture (or some acids) that destroys the finish and begins to attack the metal underneath. Once this happens the result is pitting, the tiny "potholes" formed in the metal after it gets eaten away. Corrosion is like rust/pitting, but it is usually the result of exposure to strong acids or other chemicals, or even blood. It can leave small pits, or it can also eat up a large surface area at once.

*Cracks or peening damage. Look closely at the slide and frame for signs of cracking. See photo below for areas to inspect.




*Excessive component wear. It's common knowledge that military 1911s weren't fitted together nearly as snug as modern commercial pistols, however normally they weren't rattle-traps either. Some play of the slide and frame (both vertical and horizontal) is normal, but excessive movement may indicate badly worn parts. The barrel and bushing were also less than snug, but again excessive play should be noted. If the pistol seems extremely loose yet there is almost no finish wear to the contact areas it's time to look even closer (i.e. the pistol may have been refinished). Verify that the rear of the slide is relatively flush with the frame. If not, then the bottom feet of the lower barrel lugs are probably worn.

Detailed inspection

To do a more thorough inspection will require field-stripping the pistol. It's not necessary to completely detail-strip the pistol, but if you are able to, do so by all means! For instructions on how to field- or detail-strip a 1911 click here.

*Check internally for signs of cracking or peening damage. Check the breech face, barrel lugs (top and bottom), internal slide lugs, disconnector cutout, and slide/frame rails. Slight peening of the slide stop notch in the slide is normal on early production guns, but severe peening isn't.

*Check for signs of abuse. Make sure the pistol shows no evidence of a blowup (kB, or kaBoom!). If the slide or frame appears slightly bowed the pistol may have suffered a kB at some point. Other signs of abuse include deep gouges or peening marks on the slide and frame around the slide stop. It tells you that an incompetent person once tried to remove the slide stop using brute force, without understanding how to properly field-strip a 1911-type pistol.

*Check for signs of rust or pitting. It is particularly important to look underneath the grip panels, as moisture often collects there to form rust. Other vulnerable areas include inside the slide recess, the magazine well, inside the frame under the mainspring housing, and any bare unfinished areas.

*Inspect the condition of the bore, and examine the barrel in and out for cracks or peening damage. A loose barrel link pin is common, but really should be tight or at least staked in place.

*Look at the interior markings (if any) very closely. Fortunately most counterfeiters are somewhat lazy, and they'll often fail to either apply or remove authentic-looking inspection marks inside the gun. It is at this point that knowledge of what markings are normally found inside a particular pistol is important. Either refer to one of Charles W. Clawson's excellent books, or else seek the advice of a more knowledgeable collector. However, if you're the type who buys first and asks questions later you might not be too happy further down the road.

*Don't forget to look at the small parts closely. They can suffer from rust, cracks, peening, and wear just like the more important parts like the slide, frame, and barrel. While they may be comparatively easy to replace, finding an identical replacement part is often a real challenge at this late date. If you do manage to find another part expect to pay a premium for it as well. Some early parts are virtually impossible to find anywhere, at any price.

*Last, but certainly not the least important, look for signs of alteration, modification, or attempts to repair defects or damage. You'd be surprised what some folks will do to a poor unsuspecting pistol, and later what they'll do to cover it up when it comes time to sell the gun. Feed ramps can be ground on, trigger shoes added or removed, big sights brazed on then later removed, milling work done then later welded back up, or markings ground off or altered. Assume nothing, suspect everything.




Function checking

Once the initial checks have been completed, the next task is to verify soundness of function. You probably won't have a chance to actually fire live ammunition through it, but even if you have no plans to ever shoot the pistol its functionality is important. Work the slide action, looking for signs of binding or ill-fitting parts. Operate all controls, cock the hammer, pull the trigger (by the way, making sure it's unloaded first is probably a good idea too). Most important though, make sure all parts work properly and safely. A fairly complete function check can be performed by using the guidelines provided here:

Last, but definitely not least..... "Always buy the gun, not the story!"

http://www.coolgunsite.com/buying/buying.htm
here is the 1911 site link

http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Don P]

here a link for the safty check list
http://www.coolgunsite.com/funcheck/function.htm
great info with photos showing what to do

[Creature]

Thanks for the replies.

But I am still wondering if normal wear and tear will cause this to eventually happen with every 1911.

[RickB]

I would think "normal wear and tear" on a privately owned handgun might be the result of firing it 500 rounds a year. You could probably do that for more than one lifetime and not wear the gun enough to require repair or replacement of any parts. If you shoot 20,000 rounds a year, then wear and tear will be greater, and you might have to do some repairs. It is possible to wear the tip of the disconnector enough to compromise function, but it's not something that is going to happen in "normal" use.
My single full-auto experience was the result of the trigger screw unscrewing, and allowing the trigger to overtravel enough to push the sear spring off the disconnector. The grip safety is supposed to prevent that from happening, but the new-fangled beavertail safety in my gun had apparently had the overtravel-stop feature removed for some reason. It's not necessarily true that you can remove that screw and throw it away, as some advise.

[Smaug]

Another thing that could cause a semi to go full auto is primers not seated deeply enough on reloads. This is called "slam firing."

Factory ammo never has this problem, and carefully made handloads don't either.

[James K]

I can't think of any reasonable "normal wear and tear" that would result in a properly made 1911 going full auto, and I have never known of such a case. Even if the sear and or the hammer notch should wear, the half cock notch or shelf will still stop the hammer before it strikes the firing pin.

The only such cases I know of were due to someone tampering with the mechanism who did not know what he was doing. As a worst case, a man in the general area once set himself up as a gunsmith, specializing in 1911 work. He worked the sear to a knife edge, and reduced the hammer notch to near nothing, resulting in a fine trigger pull. But the hammers kept dropping when a round was chambered, spoiling his fine edge sears when the half cock notch hit them. So he ground off the half cock notches.

Needless to say, one of his masterpieces went full auto and, while no one was hurt, the shooter and the range officer were very unhappy. The "gunsmith" was visited by a couple of cops and a lawyer and decided to go back to fixing lawn mowers.

Jim

[Harry Bonar]

Sir;
"Following" or going full auto is usually caused by "trigger bounce."
This can be a complicated problem; it could be the disconnector, sear, hammer notch or a combination of things. Generally, parts on a 1911 do not break!
The problem is usually caused by someone trying to get too light of a trigger - although some of my 1911s have 2# trigger pulls and will not "follow."
Too many 1911 owners think that it has a safety notch. It is not a safety notch, it is a notch to keep what yours is doing to not happen.
Parts in a 1911 are usually very well heat treated, and tough.
I would say either someone has been working on the pistol who didn"t know what they were doing or wear has caused this but I doubt it is wear.
No, repeat NO 1911 should ever "follow" "out of the box in the major brands.
Shooting a 1911 limp-wristed can at times cause this - but this pistil needs to go to a 1911 smith who knows the pistol for correction.
Harry B.

[Creature]

Thanks Jim, Harry.

[Casimer]

I'm regularly around people who put thousands upon thousands of rounds through their 1911s (e.g. BE shooters) and have honestly never heard of one going 'full auto' due to standard wear - and a lot of these guys are shooting older guns.

HB's explanation is the only cause of this that I'm aware of.

[hockeysew]

Sir;
"Following" or going full auto is usually caused by "trigger bounce."
This can be a complicated problem; it could be the disconnector, sear, hammer notch or a combination of things. Generally, parts on a 1911 do not break!
The problem is usually caused by someone trying to get too light of a trigger - although some of my 1911s have 2# trigger pulls and will not "follow."
Too many 1911 owners think that it has a safety notch. It is not a safety notch, it is a notch to keep what yours is doing to not happen.
Parts in a 1911 are usually very well heat treated, and tough.
I would say either someone has been working on the pistol who didn"t know what they were doing or wear has caused this but I doubt it is wear.
No, repeat NO 1911 should ever "follow" "out of the box in the major brands.
Shooting a 1911 limp-wristed can at times cause this - but this pistil needs to go to a 1911 smith who knows the pistol for correction.
Harry B

.

+1 on what Harry said.
The instance's that I have seen all have boiled down to one cause.
An unknowledgable person attempting to perform a trigger job without the proper tools and knowledge.
Change the Sear angles, it can happen.
Change the depth of the full cock notch on the hammer, it can happen.
Too short of a disconnector, it can happen.
Mis-adjust a trigger with an overtravel screw, it can happen.

Some of the older GI parts were questionable because of wear and some of the early "aftermarket" parts were crap.
Wilson, Ed Brown, McCormick, Cylinder & Slide, Nowlin are all good, high quality parts. Even most of the factory parts are decent anymore, even if they are MIM.
I agree with Harry-Take it to a reputable 1911 'Smith before you hurt somebody.

[Unclenick]

Harry covered the drill, and gave good advice on taking it to competent smith if the problem occurs.

Back in the early 80's, when I first was learning to build 1911's, I tried stoning the hammer hook on a cheap investment cast hammer down to around 0.01", trying to achieve the feel of a .22 match gun trigger. At my first attempt to fire the gun, two doubles and a triple resulted. Fortunately there was nobody else at the range that day. The hammer was immediately retired.

I think it is a common mistake for beginners not to think through the dynamics of the recoiling and jarring that goes on in a 1911 in the different phases of the firing cycle. They also are often tempted to try to "discover" some previously unknown "improvement". Trust me. There is no permutation of anything functional you can do to existing 1911 parts that has not already been tried.

I did clean a lady's 1911 one time that had doubled on her during a bullseye match. The cleaning took place during the lunch break before the final relay. She was a good shot and very active competitor, but she got into it through friends rather than being in the military or on a collegiate team, and nobody had ever taught her to detail strip and clean the thing. It turned out to have so much fouling caked up inside after years of shooting with sooty powder, that the sear nose no longer went all the way back into the hammer hook. The trigger felt mushy, too. Cleaning brought back the trigger crispness and the doubling stopped.

The above tale has no bearing on 1911 wear, since it was really an issue of inadequate maintenance practice. It was just the one example I could think of where a properly fit up gun had developed a doubling problem over time. So, tear down and detail clean your guns every once in awhile.

[Harry Bonar]

Sirs;
Hammers are so well designed and made that anymore I just do nothing to them but maybe run a white ceramic stone over the hooks and not worry about how high they are. I select a new sear, relieve the back some and they work great. I do use a Ron Power trigger jig, mounting the 45 adapter as he directs, go twenty or twenty-two clicks up and usually I'm done!
No, not every time, but very often. The three part springs, I usually give more tension on the center one to avoid trigger bounce.
But! I had one Caspian lower that gave me fits and three days labor on it - ended up with a good crisp 5# pull (good street trigger).
Harry B.

[James K]

Hi, Harry,

While the half cock would not normally be used as a safety notch today, there is no doubt that John Browning intended it to be used that way. On every outside hammer gun he designed, the ONLY safety was the half cock notch (Winchester pumps and lever shotguns, Winchester rifles, Colt autos up to the 1911, etc.). He put the grip safety and manual safety on what became the 1911 only because the Army demanded both, and Colt put the sight safety on the Model 1900, and then took it off.

Jim

[salvadore]

If you solder a spacer on the back of your 1911 trigger to take up the slack you can get an exciting surprise of 8 rounds down range and up in the air in a very short time. great balls of fire.

[Swampghost]

I've had this problem numerous times with various weapons BUT it was always a case of me playing outhouse gunsmith and I was trying to make them full auto or select fire.

The valuable ones were restored with original parts and the cheapies have been at the bottom of a rockpit for about 30 yrs. At least I was that smart.

[teeroux]

It suck if you had a malfunction and the gun doubles in front of a buch of cops.

[b.thomas]

I saw it happen about thirty-five years ago after young guy didn't garage gunsmith trigger job on Browning high power.
He loaded one mag and the pistol did a fifteen round burst, he was "escorted" by the range master out the door and told not to come back......ever!

[Unclenick]

Harry,

That original Power Custom fixture is great! It also makes perfect Redhawk triggers every time. I later got the second fixture for working on Garand triggers and some other odd items, but found its design did not use a single reference surface to make it inherently true, the way the first one was designed. As a result, I had to disassemble it and spend a couple hours with the parts on a surface grinder to true the surfaces perpendicular and square. Once trued, though, it works fine.

On the 1911's I still use a tool I designed myself back in the mid-80's. It lets me adjust the stone angle across the sear in half thousandths for those odd occasions when you run into a frame whose hammer and sear pin holes are not perfectly parallel. There used to be more of those. CNC machining has been good for firearms manufacturing.

[keys85]

Trigger bounce - that can cause 2 or 3 shot auto bursts. Most likely culprit of a full auto 1911, in my opinion, would be a worn out disconnector OR a peened firing pin. With a firing pin safety spring, I'm not sure if slide velocity alone would set off a raised primer. I don't believe chambering even soft primers did I ever get a small dent... Improperly maintained pistols are more likely to malfuntion. I put a dot of antiseize lubricant on top of my disconnect and along the slide where it runs over. Over time the top of the disconnector can become rounded and worn, compounded by any play in the gun, will cause hammer follow. I've seen this happen.