When Is a Recipe Good?

[lwestatbus]

I've been reloading handgun cartridges for about a year now using published load data from manuals and manufacturers and staying away from max loads. I would compare felt recoil to different commercial loads in the caliber but that isn't very scientific and it would be rare that even bullet weights would match, let alone bullet type.

I've now got a chronograph and took it out for its maiden voyage at the range. There was a learning curve on the string management in the chrono and its app and I learned that you can't put loads through the chrono too rapidly as you risk needing to order replacement guide rods.

My plan for developing loads for 'critical' applications* had been to capture chronograph data from name brand commercial loads and then sneak up on the results by working up my own loads to match results. But it occurred to me that some commercial load may be just as arbitrary as something I work up on my own.

So, finally getting to the point: How do you decide what performance level you want in your handgun loads? I'm looking for principles, not specific recipes unless you have one you are dying to share.

* Critical Applications: I've got three purposes where I'm going to want to be deliberate on the load outcomes:

1. Everyday walking around defensive loads in .38 +P and/or .357 Mag
2. Hiking in bear country, including grizzly country, with .44 Mag
3. Everyday walking around defensive loads in .44 Spl when all I've transported was the .44

Shooting everyday practice ammo is significantly less critical and I'm comfortable shooting current loads, though I might tweak these.

[9MMand223only]

Sorry I didnt understand at first it was revolver.

[Colorado Redneck]

The OP referred to revolver rounds, ie 38 or 357. 44 mag, 44 special. Revolvers only require enough oomph to get the projectile out the muzzle.

[Shadow9mm]

Work up to max. Max is it, that's all there is. Dropping below max can reduce recoil, help tighten groups, and in some cases reduce expansion of hollow points favoring penetration. Use tye area below max as a tool to tweak your loads.

Your most likely not going to match factory loads unless they are weak or you go over max(which i strongly advise against). Not a terrible idea to have a frame of reference though.

[44 AMP]

Finding consistent ammo that is in the bottom half of the load range (bottom is where pistol SOMETIMES won't cycle) that is accurate is a good ideal.

I disagree with this completely. A load that sometimes won't cycle a semi auto is unsuitable for the gun. A semi auto needs to run on ammo that will cycle it EVERY TIME as a minimum standard. After that you look for accuracy or any other attributes you are interested in.

A load, no matter how accurate, that doesn't reliably cycle a semi auto should be used in a manually operated gun, such as a revolver or a single shot, NOT a semi auto where it is unreliable.

The OP mentioned .38+p, .357, .44Special and Magnum, which are most commonly but not exclusively revolver rounds. He did not mention the specific firearms he has.

Work up to max. Max is it, that's all there is.

Unless one's needs and desires are met by loads below listed max, in which case, there is no point to going all the way to listed max levels.

So, finally getting to the point: How do you decide what performance level you want in your handgun loads? I'm looking for principles, not specific recipes unless you have one you are dying to share.

You start by deciding what performance level satisfies you for different tasks. Then you look at what you have to do to get there (or as close as you can) in your guns. This is NOT just a matter of velocity, its also a matter of bullet performance, as well.

You've already mentioned defensive loads both against humans and animals, so that's two things, what else are you looking for? a lower power practice load? A cat sneeze paper target load?? Something else??

What bullets are you going to use?? JSP/JHP? Cast?? Plated? All have their pros and cons, and then there is powder selection, which these days, is not what it was in the past.

Here's a suggestion for your chronograph, if possible shoot several different guns in each caliber you are interested it. Try and get at least a couple with the same barrel length shooting the same ammo. It is quite likely you will see a difference in the velocity numbers. How much difference may surprise you.

I've been loading since the early 70s, and I have centerfire handguns from .22 caliber up through .45 caliber that I reload for. I have some favorite loads for certain cartridges and pistols, some are middle of the road, some are max magnum. Each has a use, what are you looking for, in general?

[jetinteriorguy]

Generally as a carry load I load as hot as I can shoot accurately as fast as I can pull the trigger. Now I’m not talking super fast trigger action but a steady controlled pull one after another until the gun is empty. My accuracy criteria under this condition is all rounds within a five inch circle at ten yards and POI is same as POA. Hunting or target shooting are different entirely of course.

[9MMand223only]

cleaned up above post, I didnt understand

[shuvelrider]

"When is a recipe good"? To me that reflects snug/tight groups, I usually would make some test batches using the min/max in the recipe book and a batch from the middle of that data. Fire from a sandbag rest and see which batch gives the tightest group, if needed then tweak that recipe as needed and check again. You can't do better than what your satisfied with considering the variables your always trying to minimize. "Ladder Test" would be the term for this method.

[cdoc42]

For my pistols and revolvers, I first select the bullet that I want. Then I check several reference sources, looking for the powder that delivers the highest velocity at the lowest pressure, making sure that I don't mix CUP and PSI. The maximum load for any chosen powder may differ between references, so I use the lowest one.

The recommendation is to start your load 10% below the maximum charge. I do that, loading in increments toward max, but I always stay 0.2 gr below max because my powder charger may swing 0.1 to 0.2 gr above or below my target weight and I am not comfortable going over max at all. I'll load 6 rounds of each incremental powder charge and bench rest at 15 yards for accuracy. I pay no attention to recoil.

For example, for my Ruger GP 100, .357 Mag I use 125gr JHP and I chose 2400 powder.
Two sources list max at 17.6gr and 17.7gr. I used 17.6 as the limit. 10% is starting at 15.8, so I round it off to 16.0gr. I loaded 16.0, 16.5 and 17.0. My best accuracy was 17.0, so that's where I stayed.

The same revolver in .38 special, same 125gr JHP. Max charge of Unique is 6.0gr
I ended up at 5.7gr.

.44 Mag - I use the same bullet and powder charge in both my Super Blackhawk and Super Redhawk. 180gr JHP, ended up at 29gr of H110 - max 30gr

A 240gr .44 Mag Remington black cast bullet had a max with 2400 of 20.6gr (1258 fps) and I ended up with 18.5gr(V-1101 fps). I use this one principally in the Super Black Hawk.

I follow the same procedure for Colt .45 and Freedom Arms .454 revolvers, and pistols in .380 auto, 9mm and .45 ACP.

Don't use these recipes, or any other, without the 10% reduction. Our guns differ from the resource guns used, and your guns will differ from mine.

[44 AMP]

The recommendation is to start your load 10% below the maximum charge.

Back when I began reloading, the standard recommendation was to start 10% below the STARTING LOAD, except for when using powders that specifically recommended not doing that.

The reasoning was simple, and valid, because of the (admittedly slim) possibility that the test gun used developing the loads, and your gun might be at opposite ends of the bell curve, so firing a few rounds below the starting load levels was done to be sure this wasn't the case.

I have seen guns that showed pressure signs before getting to 10% below max. I've even seen some that did it with starting loads and factory loads.

Anything is possible, and should be provided for, until its proven there's no need to in YOUR gun with your loads.

[cdoc42]

44AMP, you are correct. It is the "STARTING" load. But after all these years of loading, I came to the conclusion that was a bit too conservative and wasted a LOT of powder and time. So I decided to try 10% under max only because if anyone was less cautious and started at max, I had NEVER read of any adverse events that transpired. I imagine the safety of the manufacturer's recommendation for the maximum load coincides with their avoidance of legal irresponsibility these days. But I still do not exceed the max since I can find a suitable accuracy below that load, even if I have to change powders.
So speed, like beauty,is in the eye of the beholder, but not eventually attractive.

[tangolima]

All the load data I have come across follow the similar default. 10% difference between starting (min) and max, and one should always stay within the two limits. Going below min is in the book of light loads.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

The advice to start 10% below the starting load is to provide a bit of extra "room" pressure wise, since we have no idea what gun is going to be used or what condition it is in, so loading a few rounds "extra light" and making sure there's no problem with them in your gun, first, is just a good idea.

Its a general guideline, meant to protect both us and our guns, especially ones that have been around a long time.

I will freely admit to not always using it, when dealing with modern guns and cartridges, sometimes, I'm so bold as to pick my beginning load right from the middle of the data range.

[5whiskey]

"When is a Recipe Good"

When you're shooting the size and type of projectile you want to shoot, at a velocity you desire, with an accuracy you desire, within safe pressures for your firearm. That's really actually pretty easy to define...


...until you try to find the right powder/primer/projectile. Some powders are finicky and require higher pressures and/or case fill for proper consistent ignition, while others are a bit fast burning for caliber and struggle to give the desired velocity within safe pressure limits. Some powders are very temperature sensitive. Some powders suffer little from any of these drawbacks, but are either unobtainable or cost $70 per pound. Some projectiles have a speed cap before they start behaving badly. Some projectiles won't stabilize unless pushed a certain speed. Some flat based projectiles are just a PITA to seat unless you campher the case to a knifes edge. The one component that usually works as intended and isn't finicky is the primer, as long as you're using the right primer for the cartridge/powder combo. Oh wait... forgot about the Winchester LRPs that pitted up my bolt face from gas leakage.

As you can see, a good recipe is easy to define. It's less easy to achieve. But it's usually within reach with a little effort and trial/error.

[kilotanker22]

Personally, ES less than 20, SD less than 10. Half minute accuracy.

[Unclenick]

Kilotanker,

Those are pretty stiff requirements for a revolver.


Regarding starting loads, I've twice run into published starting loads that were already at or over the maximum for the gun I was trying them in. So, with the exception of a powder like 296/H110, where going below the published minimum can get a bullet stuck in the barrel, I've adopted the recommendation that Western Powders made before they sold their lines to Hodgdon, and that is 10% below max for rifle cartridges, and 15% below the maximum for handgun cartridges, except I use 16% below max for handgun rounds to make the steps come out evenly. This is not something that requires burning a lot of powder. I only load one round at the -16% level and increase it in 2% increments until I get to the maximum. One shot tells you pretty quickly by recoil and brass ejection and condition if you are in a reasonable range. So, it's just six shots in a rifle and nine in a handgun to see if the range is being handled reasonably. Once you know the safe range, you can start looking for your best performer without spending time at the bottom of the range unless a gentle target load is what you want.

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Kilotanker,

Those are pretty stiff requirements for a revolver.


Regarding starting loads, I've twice run into published starting loads that were already at or over the maximum for the gun I was trying them in. So, with the exception of a powder like 296/H110, where going below the published minimum can get a bullet stuck in the barrel, I've adopted the recommendation that Western Powders made before they sold their lines to Hodgdon, and that is 10% below max for rifle cartridges, and 15% below the maximum for handgun cartridges, except I use 16% below max for handgun rounds to make the steps come out evenly. This is not something that requires burning a lot of powder. I only load one round at the -16% level and increase it in 2% increments until I get to the maximum. One shot tells you pretty quickly by recoil and brass ejection and condition if you are in a reasonable range. So, it's just six shots in a rifle and nine in a handgun to see if the range is being handled reasonably. Once you know the safe range, you can start looking for your best performer without spending time at the bottom of the range unless a gentle target load is what you want.

I guess I should have read the entire post instead of responding to the headline! Haha

[gwpercle]

A recipe is good ... when it works for you .

Gary
58 years reloading and shooting experience .

[cdoc42]

What happened to the OP (lwestatbus) ?

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

What happened to the OP (lwestatbus) ?

They were on today, no telling.

[lwestatbus]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

What happened to the OP (lwestatbus) ?

HA! Wedding planning. I have been reading the daily digest eMail faithfully, though.

Many thanks for all of the responses. There were different approaches to determining "good" and I'm going to have to think about them.

FYI: All of the revolvers for which I load are very modern S&Ws, though two of the .357s are Model 60 J-frames so +P is what I'll usually carry in them.

My new Model 66 4.25" barrel .357 is my new favorite. For both it and my Model 69 .44 Mag 4.25" barrel I load 158 gr and 240 gr JSP respectively for outdoor adventures. I will want good penetration on these without pushing the absolute max load for the powder I use.

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Generally as a carry load I load as hot as I can shoot accurately as fast as I can pull the trigger. Now I’m not talking super fast trigger action but a steady controlled pull one after another until the gun is empty. My accuracy criteria under this condition is all rounds within a five inch circle at ten yards and POI is same as POA. Hunting or target shooting are different entirely of course.

I like this as a criteria for self defense against humans.

Thank you all again. Sorry this is brief but my fiance is on her way now and I'm about to get sucked into the swamp again. Range time tomorrow with the chronograph and determined not to shoot any guide rods.

[lwestatbus]

Heading to the range today with the chronograph, 6 batches of .357 cartridges with different configurations, and extra guide rods for the chronograph (plus some .38 loaded for target shooting).

Each batch is in its own small bag with a data card printed front and back on business card stock. The attached file Data Cards.jpg shows the front and back images where the front side is filled in when I load and the back side at the range.

The file Recipe Page.jpg is a 5.5" x 8.5" notebook page where keeper or possible recipes are recorded. For now I expect to have many of these as I work through multiple mixes of components, especially bullet weights and shapes, that I acquired before I decided on final 'standard' bullet configurations I'd like to use.

BTW: I got started reloading when revolver ammunition was frightfully expensive, especially .44 cal. But I've also started loading .45 ACP. This was my first service pistol in the Army and I've owned one of these since the late 1970s. I will absolutely be matching mil spec bullet sizes with these loads and use the chronograph to tweak the load to have the same velocity as mil spec factory loads.

Another BTW: Accuracy performance in my handguns cannot be a factor in my load selection. I'm not going to invest in any kind of vise for the handguns and my vision is weak enough that shooting from a rest gives abysmal groups, at least bad enough to rely on them for precise load tuning. This is why I like jetinteriorguy's advice.

Again, many thanks for all of the insights.

[lwestatbus]

My trip to the range yesterday was productive and I learned quite a bit. I tried out three different powder charges each with three different bullets. The bullets were all 158 gr .38 / .357 and included Berry's thick plated, Hornaday XTP hollow point, and Speer Jacketed soft point. Loads included 14, 15, and 15.5 gr of IMR 4227.

The most interesting finding was that there was a big velocity and energy change from 14 to 15 gr but the difference from 15 to 15.5 was less than the ES.

Also, the velocity and energy of my top loads was close enough to the measures from the one commercial load I fired with the same bullet weight. All felt fine to shoot.

It was gratifying to see that the performance across bullet types was very consistent for the same powder charge so I can practice at magnum loads with lower cost bullets, though most of my practice will be using .38 with a much less stout load.

A final lesson was just in using the chronograph. I think I have to be more careful to get the bullet across the centerline of the chrono to avoid missed readings (and to save money on guide rods). I also finally learned (I think) to manage which string the chrono is recording to so I can match the results to the load I just tested. Finally, I need to be using 10 - 12 round test strings. I had some where I missed two readings out of five so to get a reliable sample I need more rounds.

Thanks again for all of the feedback.

Larry

[Unclenick]

Sounds like progress. One thing I found helpful with an optical chronograph is to get a laser bore sighter, set it up in the gun, then arrange the gun blocked up on bags or a rest so it has the sight picture you intend to fire with as seen the way your eyes see it. Then go out to the chronograph and adjust its position until you see the laser spot on your palm when you hold it in the center of either screen opening.