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Old March 7, 2019, 06:01 AM   #1
Dlaverne
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Savage and Tikka 223 throats

Looking for someone with throat depth info.
Specific to Savage and Tikka 223s. This is reloading specific.

I have found that every rifle has a cartridge length it likes best. So I usually try to control the distance of the bullet to the rifling lands. Question is whether I can load to that length and STILL fit cartridges in the mag.

Anyone know their OAL where the bullet touches the lands on Tikka or Savage 12 in 223 rem? (name the bullet too of course). Or have you measured from the bolt face to the lands somehow?


Why? I had a Remington 700 in 308 that would shoot 1 3/4 inch groups. I tried and tried to build loads it would shoot. Nada. But then in frustration I took Remington factory 150s and pulled the bullets out to nearly touch the lands (2.85 OAL). (nothing shot better, so why not start with that?)
Groups came down to 0.75 without changing anything else, repeatably. That day I shot 0.68, 0.72, 0.78, 0.58 groups back to back. Then shot factory length again and got 1.59 I could hardly believe it, but data is data.

Since that time, I always watch the "bullet jump distance" which is how far the bullet travels before it hits the rifling. in 308s I found 5 or 6 guns that like 0.020, 0.010 or even sometimes 0. It works.

Factory rifle makers Remington, Weatherby use fairly long throats. They do this to manage peak pressures. I know nothing about Savage and Tikka.
So that's why I am asking if any reloaders know where their lands are relative to the bolt face. I am gonna get a 223 bolt gun and need a starting point, hopefully before I buy a rifle.
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Old March 7, 2019, 08:16 AM   #2
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I would like to know about Tikka T3x varmint in 223 also
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Old March 7, 2019, 08:36 AM   #3
NoSecondBest
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If you're reloading, make a dummy round up that fits in the magazine/magazine well and measure it. That's as long as you can go in the gun. Next, take an empty fired case and put a bullet in it and just squeeze the case mouth enough to keep the bullet held in the case mouth, and leave the bullet stick out well beyond the length needed to ensure the bullet will hit the lands when inserted in the chamber.. Put that round in the rifle and close the bolt. Gently open the bolt so the round doesn't come flying out and measure the OAL of the bullet from base to tip. That's the maximum length of the round to be used in your gun. I would caution you to keep it at least .001-.002" off the lands and try it before using it where the bullet is actually on the lands. If that bullet is shorter than the one that fits in the magazine you're good to go. If it's longer you're going to have to shorten it up. Based on the fact that you already used reseated bullets that shot better I think you're OK here.
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Old March 7, 2019, 09:16 AM   #4
taylorce1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlaverne
Anyone know their OAL where the bullet touches the lands on Tikka or Savage 12 in 223 rem? (name the bullet too of course). Or have you measured from the bolt face to the lands somehow?
I could go measure my Steven's 200 .223 but I doubt it would even be close. I've had the barrel off a couple of times so it wouldn't be the same as factory. Another thing you can't account for is the reamer used at the factory, is the barrel you're getting the first chamber/throat cut, the 500th, or the last before replacing.

You're best bet is to get the SAAMI (USA) specifications on .223 for the Savage, and find the CIP (European) standards for the TIKKA. This will give you the throat dimensions and tolerance that they're allowed, the dimensions might be a little different. Then it'll be up to you to measure the actual throat length after you decide which rifle to get.

Another thing to take into account is your magazine length? Who has the longer magazine box that will allow you to seat close to the lands? A savage 12 is pretty easy to shoot single shot if you load bullets longer than magazine length, the Tikka is not.

Then there is the fact that I've had rifles that that didn't like bullets seated anywhere near the lands. I had a .243 that shot Berger VLD bullets the best seated .120" shorter than mag length. Then every TSX/TTSX bullet I've tried shot better with with at least .050" jump sometimes more.
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Old March 7, 2019, 09:27 AM   #5
LineStretcher
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Hornady makes a tool for measuring the distance to the lands. It works best with fire formed brass. You can send your fire formed case to them and have it modified to fit the tool or you can modify it yourself fairly easily.

If you find that your new COAL creates a round that is too long to fit in your mag then you have to hand chamber the round or convert to an AICS magazine. I have a Weatherby Mark V 6 lug TRR .308 (Standard Chamber) that I've converted to an AICS mag and run long COAL's with.
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Old March 7, 2019, 06:14 PM   #6
std7mag
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Even though the same reamer may be used between my barrel, and yours, it may still be a few thousandths difference.
Nevermind if the reamer was changed between my barrel and yours.
COAL to fit in your mag is going to depend on bullet used, and well, your mag.
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Old March 9, 2019, 04:48 PM   #7
RC20
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This really belongs in the re loader section.

While Weatherby does use a long jump for pressure Remington does not, they have moved to long for ELD bullets in some cases (I doubt all)

Frankly the only wya for a given gun to get the data you want is to make up a dummy round for that bullet in your gun and loading it long, see if the bolt closes on it. You can adjust a bit down (.010 until it clears)

The bullet length is not the best measure, the Ogive is.

Keep in mind, you will find a few that are way off and will jam (cartridge won't extras if you have a cease fire) so you need to watch it and back off enough so that none stick.
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Old March 10, 2019, 01:36 PM   #8
Dufus
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I have found that, in general, Savage has short throats and you have to be careful when setting your cartridge base to ogive. I have been surprised by this as well as others.

I haven't messed with a Tika.
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Old March 13, 2019, 01:52 PM   #9
T. O'Heir
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Like taylorce1 says, the Savage will be chambered to SAAMI spec. The Tikka to CIP spec.
https://saami.org/specifications_and...tion/index.cfm
Click on TDCC. And it's in French.
https://www.cip-bobp.org/fr
"...where the bullet touches the lands..." That has nothing to do with the OAL given in your manual. OAL in a North American made rifle will be to SAAMI spec.
Nor is there an written in stone distance off the lands(NOT touching). Every chamber in every rifle is slightly different.
The whole off-the-lands thing is unnecessary and isn't done until you have worked up the load. It's a load tweaking technique only. It is a 100% trial and error thing too.
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Old March 14, 2019, 01:19 AM   #10
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There is no comparison to the Remington 700 chambers/throats and Savage or Tikka . Both Savage and Tikka on the whole will have much shorter throats then a Remington 700 .

So yes in general you will be much more likely to reach the lands on a Savage or Tikka and still be able to feed from a mag . That said it ultimately has more to do with the bullet your using and it's weight and profile .

Unclenick has a good illustration on bullet profiles and how they effect COAL and how far off the lands they would be . Maybe if he comes along he can post it up to help see my point

In my Savage 308 I just started using a 200gr Berger hybrid that has such a long and pointy nose . It not only does not fit in my mag , I can't eject the full cartridge from my rifle because it's to long to fit through my ejection port . It stays stuck on the bolt face with the tip of the bullet pressed up against the side of the receiver in front of the ejection port . It's a real pain to get out . So if I chamber those rounds it's best I shoot them and not try to take them out .

How ever I reach the lands with 175grSMK and still feed in my mag .

My buddy has a Tikka in 223 I loaded some 52gr smk in and I had no problem reaching the lands and still feeding from the mag . It's a 1-12 twist so I never tried to load the longer bullets .
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Old March 14, 2019, 07:16 AM   #11
thallub
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Quote:
Why? I had a Remington 700 in 308 that would shoot 1 3/4 inch groups. I tried and tried to build loads it would shoot. Nada. But then in frustration I took Remington factory 150s and pulled the bullets out to nearly touch the lands (2.85 OAL). (nothing shot better, so why not start with that?)
This^^^^^^

i've been doing this stuff for many years. Every rifle i've done this with has improved in accuracy.

One of my rifles is a left hand Remington 700 in .308 bought in 1987. That rifle shot abysmal five shot groups at 100 yards.

1. Then i took a neck sized case.

2. Loaded a bullet long.

3. Removed the guts from the bolt for a better feel.

4. Inserted the dummy cartridge in the chamber.

5. Loaded up some test rounds about .010 short of that length.

That gun went from an inaccurate shooter to a five shot .75" shooter at 100 yards. There was one problem. With some bullets the cartridge is too long for the magazine: i care not.

i don't give much attention to COL unless the cartridge won't fit into the magazine of a hunting rifle.

Last edited by thallub; March 14, 2019 at 08:20 AM.
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