For those of you who use a red dot on your carry pistol,,,

[JMag1]

Scott at the Modern Samurai Project is making me rethink a red dot on my handgun.


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[HighValleyRanch]

^^^^^^^
For or against a red dot and why?

I can only speak to trying to convert to an aimpoint on my .22 bulleye pistol, and what I found was that it enhanced my wobble and cause me to snatch the trigger.
Being nervous before a big match, it showed up like a bouncing ball that I could not control and I would try and get the shot off when the dot danced by the bull.
I cannot imagine how it might shake in an real life adrenaline situation!
Maybe you'll be able to keep calmer than me!

[jimku]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

^^^^^^^
For or against a red dot and why?

I would never put a red dot (or a laser) on any defensive handgun simply because of the fear of a dead battery issue. My life isn't something I want to trust to Duracell.

[Sharkbite]

I would never put a red dot (or a laser) on any defensive handgun simply because of the fear of a dead battery issue. My life isn't something I want to trust to Duracell.

Yet, we have been using battery operated dot sights on our Rifles for YEARS. EO-tech’s & Aimpoints have been deployed all over the globe in all kinds of conditions and have been a GREAT aid to our war fighters

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

Yet, we have been using battery operated dot sights on our Rifles for YEARS. EO-tech’s & Aimpoints have been deployed all over the globe in all kinds of conditions and have been a GREAT aid to our war fighters

I actually looked it up today, and Aimpoint’s first red dot was in 1975. Their first military contract was in 1997. We’re talking decades, not just years.


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[HisSoldier]

may take the red dot laser off and sell it.

Note that I got the laser vs red dot thing. I had a laser on my carry pistol and happened to be out in the mountains in a clearcut area, bright sunlight, yup, couldn't find the dot no matter how hard or long I looked. Went to a slightly darker area, noticed that the DAO trigger precluded actually holding the dot anywhere's near stationary. I sold it soon after.

[stinkeypete]

I've proven to myself (and my pals) that I can out-shoot about 50% of the guys at bullseye pistol league (Wednesday nights in the winter) with my battery dead and no dot at all... just by practice, consistent grip, and centering the tube of the ultradot around the bullseye target in .22 and then for fun shot not too bad the same way with my 1911. The dot does buy me some points.

Following the same experiment I once had the dot removed for an occasional deep cleaning and gave a shot at a regulation target with nothing but the front iron sight and still was able to score in the 60's at 50 feet with my .22 target pistol (which is a TT Olympia, Norico clone).

Dots improve my score and I would love to have one on my field pistol as what I shoot at tends to be shotgun hulls I find in the grass at rather long distances. But for now, the technology is still too expensive and clunky for the stuff I would like it for other than range use and carrying extra batteries in my range box (I learned!) is no big deal.

[cw308]

That's why I went with a CT Lases grip on my carry Colt New Agent 1911 45ACP, love it .

[jimku]

The military is not the same as the average Joe Blow. They know when they are going into battle and unless they are idiots put in a fresh battery every time and I am dead sure they put in fresh batteries on a VERY regular schedule. The average Joe Blow sticks his gun in its holster and it stays there for looong lengths of time, maybe even years before being used.

Hunting guns are a completely different story. Your life is not going to depend on it ... unless you're an idiot using one for a grizzly gun.

[TunnelRat]

The batteries last for literal years (as mentioned above). If you want to be extra cautious and replace them more regularly, that’s certainly an option.


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[Sharkbite]

The Trijicon RMR has a battery life of 4+ YEARS on the middle setting (4 of 8). I run my dot a little brighter then that (6 of 8). Ive never had a dead battery. I change batteries once a year and could prob go every 2 years, but batteries are cheap and im counting on the gun to save my or someone else's life. A little maintenance is a small price to pay.

So, on my Birthday i have a battery swap session. All my longguns and handguns with dots on em get replaced.

In addition, most people that run red dots have some type of iron sight back up. My red dot equipped pistols have suppressor height sights that can be seen thru the window of the red dot. So, even if the dot somehow fails, i just shoot with the irons.

Heck, if the dot fails at conversational distances (less then 5 yards) just see his chest thru the window and go... the dot only allows faster PRECISION work. You should have built the muscle memory (god, i hate that phrase, but its widely understood) to achieve good hits at 3yards WITHOUT needing the dot as reference. In fact, you should train with the dot off and “shoot thru the tube” at least enough to be comfortable with the concept.

If changing a battery once a year is too strenuous, then dont put a dot on. If $600 is too expensive, then dont put a dot on. If you dont want to spend the cash to have your slide milled...well, you get the point.

Dots are not for everyone. Those of us that use a gun seriously and are willing to put in the time to understand it strengths and weaknesses, find them useful. Head shots at 20-25 are all the sudden not that hard to make. COM hits at 100 plus are not difficult. Up close they only slow you down if you let them. Like i said above, chest in window...press the trigger. Oh CRAP...partial head at 7...hold the dot and press.

Just like the Rifle, better sighting systems are becoming standard. The ol’ front sight blade in the rear sight notch that has been around for 300years(?), is no longer the cutting edge.

But, maybe some folks are still happy with dial-up modems

[jimku]

I have a red dot on my Ruger MKIII competition. But it is not meant for self-defense. I agree that accuracy can be outstanding. I can drill pop cans with it consistently all day long @ 100 yards.

Long-shot capability just makes no sense to me at all for a defensive gun. If you shoot someone more than about 5 yards away you are most likely on your way to prison for assault with a deadly weapon ... or murder ... because there was no IMMINENT threat to your life ... imminent meaning you could be dead in about one second unless you shoot. So, unless the bad guy is actually shooting at you, AND YOU CAN PROVE IT, you are most likely legally dead meat.

[TunnelRat]

Really? 5 yd is 15 feet. That’s less than the distance across many rooms. Saying you’re legally screwed if you shoot passed 15 feet seems a bit extreme to me, but obviously your state laws will apply. I’m well aware of the standard rule of 3s when it comes to officer involved shootings, but that doesn’t mean all shootings happen at that distance.

I’m certainly willing to agree that justifying a personal defense shooting at 100 yd is going to be an uphill battle, but there’s a lot of ground (literally) between 5 yd and 100 yd.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/on...ouse-shootout/

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[Sharkbite]

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/on...ouse-shootout/

And there you go...

A dot sighted pistol would have made those shots easier.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Really? 5 yd is 15 feet. That’s less than the distance across many rooms. Saying you’re legally screwed if you shoot passed 15 feet seems a bit extreme to me, but obviously your state laws will apply. I’m well aware of the standard rule of 3s when it comes to officer involved shootings, but that doesn’t mean all shootings happen at that distance.

I’m certainly willing to agree that justifying a personal defense shooting at 100 yd is going to be an uphill battle, but there’s a lot of ground (literally) between 5 yd and 100 yd.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/on...ouse-shootout/

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IMMINENT threat of your own life or someone else's is petty much the requisite for a self-defense plea almost everywhere in the country. And if you don't have an organization like USCCA in your corner you're pretty much screwed even then. Don't like reality? Then get the laws changed, but lots of luck with that. Strut your stuff and beat your chest ... and go to prison. Fine with me.

If you see a police officer under fire ... or some other innocent person (and can later prove that innoceent person's life was in dager) you stand a good chance of coming out OK with a long shot ... but those are about the only such scenarios.

[TunnelRat]

My points up until now have been the optics in question have been tested in the real world for years if not decades, the batteries themselves can last for years, and threats exist passed 5 yd. I guess I missed where I was strutting and beating my chest.

There are imminent threats and there are active threats. Absent a weapon being present yes it’s not easy to show you were in imminent danger passed 5 yd. But we don’t always have the luxury of getting the drop on our attackers. Even someone with a contact weapon can be a threat passed 5 yd. Take the Tueller drill for example. A person can cover ground pretty quickly, and the Tueller drill even assumes you have already identified the threat and are drawing from a strong side belt mounted holster. Reacting from concealment requires even more distance. This isn’t even getting into the reality that firearms are ranged weapons that can certainly shoot passed 5 yd and an attacker can take advantage of that fact.

If the argument is self defense shootings passed 5 yd are rare, I can agree. Needing to use a firearm for self defense in the first place is rare. Given that I don’t find the red dot to have a disadvantage 5 yd and in, I’m not sure how having additional capability to handle longer range shots, as rare as they may be, is a bad thing. If someone doesn’t want that that’s fine.

For me, beyond advantages at range, the red dot allows target focused shooting and my brief stint in force on force showed me that focusing on sights and the target while dealing with adrenaline wasn’t easy. With a red dot I superimpose the dot on the target, making the process easier. This is in addition to the fact that my eyesight and corrective lenses make it difficult to see a crisp front sight while also being able to have good target definition at range. The dot looks visually much more clear to me than a front sight with my lenses.


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[jimku]

I know many can't do this, but I can ... even with my 72 year old eyesight. With a 357 snubbie I can bounce pop cans around all day long at 100 Yards. I might not actually hit them, but I absolutely scare the hell out of them and bounce them around. If it was a man-sized target at that range he would be in very deep doo-doo. And I practice at every distance out to that range, shooting up-hill and down-hill (and yes, that makes a difference). I also practice point-shooting from the hip ... you very well might not have time to even raise your weapon to eye-level. Out to 10 yards a bad guy is dead meat even if I just shoot from the hip. I am also one of the most hard-to-rattle people you will ever meet. Panic is not in my vocabulary. I am not high-strung AT ALL. Stress impacts different people in different ways.

The odds of me ever having to use a gun in self-defense are very low, probably lower than those of being hit by lightning. There is a VERY low crime rate where I live, there is zero racial tension here, lots of people don't even lock their homes. I just don't see myself ever being attacked for those reasons as well as the fact that I always practice strong situational awareness and will avoid getting into a mess like a protest or riot. The most likely situation I might find myself in would be sitting in a restaurant or in Walmart or in some gas station and some dippidy-do pulls a gun and is threatening people or shooting.

[TunnelRat]

That’s great that you have that ability. Not everyone does. At no point have I said red dots are a replacement for skill. As I said, if you don’t want one then don’t use one. That doesn’t mean that those of us that do use one don’t have reasons. Reflexive shooting is also something I’ve already mentioned and said is important. It’s good that you’re not hard to rattle, I don’t believe I am either. I also don’t see how being that way negates anything I’ve brought up so far. Shooting at static targets at a range or not getting into arguments isn’t quite the same as defending yourself when getting shot at.

As for your statistical likelihood of needing a firearm for defense, that’s something I already acknowledged. Situational awareness is of course important, nothing I have said has challenged that. None of this changes the fact that you may find yourself under attack from a person more than 5 yd away. Given that you can bounce soda cans at 100 yd with a snub nosed revolver, seems like you should be fine. For me, I want the red dot.


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[jimku]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

That’s great that you have that ability. Not everyone does. At no point have I said red dots are a replacement for skill. As I said, if you don’t want one then don’t use one. That doesn’t mean that those of us that so use one don’t have reasons. Reflexive shooting is also something I’ve already mentioned and said is important.

As for your statistical likelihood of needing a firearm for defense, that’s something I already acknowledged. Situational awareness is of course important, nothing I have said has challenged that. None of this changes the fact that you may find yourself under attack from a person more than 5 yd away. Given that you can bounce soda cans at 100 yd, seems like you should be fine. For me, I want the red dot.


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The point of my post was that not evryone wears the same size shoe and that what's good for you is not necessarily good for me ... and the other way 'round as well. I think we are pretty much in agreement about things other than a red dot. But you have my blessing to do as you will on that score.

I run into this same sort of discussion with people concerning the best gun to pack when in grizzly bear country. Many laud the high capacity of a 10mm semi-auto. The reality is that a ticked off grizzly can cover 40 yards in about two seconds and you most likely will not get a 2nd shot much less 10.

[TunnelRat]

I think I was going to do what I wanted regardless of your blessing.

Mentioning battery life of these optics, the real world testing of red dots, and their impact on shooting irons is a factual question, not a matter of personal preference. That’s why I responded originally because the information you were presenting in those areas was wrong. Choosing to use them is another story.


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[jimku]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Mentioning battery life of these optics, the real world testing of red dots, and their impact on shooting irons is a factual question, not a matter of personal preference. That’s why I responded originally because the information you were presenting in those areas was wrong.

Wrong for you. Right for me.
For me, it is a proven fact that I can shoot iron sights much faster than I can a red dot.

[TunnelRat]

Not really no. You’re confusing personal preference with facts in those areas. They’re not one in the same. You can not want to use a red dot on a pistol. That’s a matter of what is right for you or not. That doesn’t change the amount of time a battery will last or how durable is an optic. That’s factual.

You can also edit comments and add in clarifiers, but you’ll notice speed isn’t one of the items in the text of mine you quoted.


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[JohnKSa]

I'm going to do some cleanup work and lock this thread.

However, I think it's worth providing one more bit of information. A useful feature of some of the small red dot/holosights for handguns is that they can be set up so that iron sights can be seen through the "display" screen. This means that even in the event of dead batteries or other failure of the electronic sight, the iron sights of the handgun can still be seen and used.