Scope set-up on AR for hd & target shooting

[odugrad]

I wouldn't buy anything I'm using for home defense from ebay. Too many variables there. I'd stick with a reputable dealer for anything firearms related. Just my two cents.

And for home defense nothing beats a good red dot (in my opinion). To me, for close quarters, there is no downside to using a red dot. Even for distances out to 100 yards, the red dot does the job. The Aimpoint PRO is one of the best optics for the price point. I also like the Inforce WML for my light.

[pblanc]

If you foresee the possibility of having to use your AR at short range for self-defense, you should train to deal with the large sight axis to bore axis offset that is inherent in the AR platform. This will require you to hold over your intended point of impact at short range, for any realistic zero range you choose for your optic.

I am not great at estimating range but am working at getting better. I zero my red dots at 50 yards for my AR rifles and carbines. My rule of thumb is to aim 2" high for a range of less than 20 yards, 1" high for ranges of 20-40 yards, and dead-on for ranges of 40-80 yards. This will place my point of impact within about 1/2" of my desired POI.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by pete2

Never understand a rifle for "home defense", longest shot in my humble home would be 40 feet. If I was gonna use a long gun it would be a shotgun. As it is I use a handgun.

A handgun definitely has the advantage of being more portable, easier to use with one hand, and usually quicker to access. But for long guns, an AR-15 is a better home defense firearm than a shotgun, hands down. Here are its advantages:

-Unless you go the NFA route, an AR-15 can be legally be made shorter than a shotgun.
-An AR will have much less recoil.
-Engaging multiple targets is faster and easier with an AR.
-Follow-up shots are much faster and easier with an AR.
-With proper defensive ammo, an AR will penetrate FAR less through walls than almost any defensive shotgun or handgun load.
-The AR has a much higher capacity.
-The AR is much easier and faster to reload.
-The average AR is more reliable than the average semi-auto shotgun. And the AR will usually be more reliable than even a pump shotgun unless the shooter is well-trained and pumps the shotgun properly each time (I'm fairly proficient with the 870 and 590A1, but I've owned both and I've had more stoppages with those two than I've ever had with any AR I've owned).

[ronl]

All the talk of shotgun/rifle/pistol doesn't matter. Pick one and learn it and practice with it until you know it like the back of your hand. I'd suggest the Romeo 5 for a red-dot. I've had one for over a year now and it has been a great sight. I especially like the auto on and the great battery life. That being said, for HD I use a Para P14 and an AR. Options are always better. I run an EOtech on my rifle because it is simply the fastest sight on target, period. 14.5 lightweight barrel with permanently attached FH. It makes getting around just a little easier. I do have MI BUIS on the rifle just in case, and a Streamlight gun light to identify targets in the dark, but i am very judicious in the use of a light as it makes you pretty much an an easy target. Once again, it is of the utmost importance, whatever weapon you choose, to learn how and when you can use that weapon properly.

[pete2]

Home defense it most likely gonna be a point and shoot situation at very close range, most likely inside 20 feet. handgun or shotgun is gonna be the faster gun. As far as the 2" high hold or 1" low ain't really part of the self defense situation. Too mush thinking and figuring out hold point. Plus or minus 2" while holding center mass don't matter. It'll do the job. Self defense at long range ain't likely unless it's THE MAN coming for your guns. If that's the case the battle zero will do the job.

[pblanc]

Originally Posted by pete2

Home defense it most likely gonna be a point and shoot situation at very close range, most likely inside 20 feet. handgun or shotgun is gonna be the faster gun. As far as the 2" high hold or 1" low ain't really part of the self defense situation. Too mush thinking and figuring out hold point. Plus or minus 2" while holding center mass don't matter. It'll do the job. Self defense at long range ain't likely unless it's THE MAN coming for your guns. If that's the case the battle zero will do the job.

Unless you have to take a head shot at bad guy with a hostage in front of him. Or a head shot or pelvic shot at a guy wearing body armor.

Relatively unlikely scenarios for home defense, but definitely possible.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by pete2

Home defense it most likely gonna be a point and shoot situation at very close range, most likely inside 20 feet. handgun or shotgun is gonna be the faster gun.

Have you tested that theory out with a shot timer? Every time I take novices out and have them try a pistol, shotgun, and AR, the AR overwhelmingly produces the best scores using IPSC or IDPA style scoring and targets.

[MTT TL]

Have you tested that theory out with a shot timer? Every time I take novices out and have them try a pistol, shotgun, and AR, the AR overwhelmingly produces the best scores using IPSC or IDPA style scoring and targets.

Not just novices but trained shooters as well. The exception being for well trained pistol experts. Some of them are crazy fast. But how many of us are well trained pistol experts?

-Unless you go the NFA route, an AR-15 can be legally be made shorter than a shotgun.

A bullpup will be the same length, likely shorter.

-With proper defensive ammo, an AR will penetrate FAR less through walls than almost any defensive shotgun or handgun load.

I am highly skeptical of this.

-The AR has a much higher capacity.
-The AR is much easier and faster to reload.

Maybe, but not really relevant.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

MTT TL, you’ve been here for a decade now. So this can’t be your first “5.56 for HD” rodeo. What part are you skeptical about? The “FAR less?”

[MTT TL]

Yep. Don't get me wrong I prefer the AR15 for HD, I just don't give it powers it doesn't have.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

I am highly skeptical of this.

OK, maybe “FAR less” is an overstatement in some of the tests I’ve seen. But it’s established fact by now: A .223 hollow-point will usually penetrate less through building materials than a centerfire pistol round or a buckshot load, even #4. It’s because the small bullet is traveling fast enough that it usually breaks up and the pieces tend lose energy sooner. That’s one of the reasons why the AR-15 has pretty much replaced the shotgun in police cars around the country. The FBI had a good analysis of this a while back.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

Don't get me wrong I prefer the AR15 for HD, I just don't give it powers it doesn't have.

Fair enough; I’ll agree that the AR is not a magical HD gun of perfection. But I think that the shotgun’s reputation among the general gun-owning public as being the ideal HD firearm is undeserved. I think the shotgun is overrated for HD, and the AR is underrated.

[pete2]

Bart, IDPA is a game. Timer is fine but for a real home defense situation, middle of the night, grab your piece off the night stand and fire. Or, get your rifle, turn on the red dot, aim and fire. I think most will make the shot faster with the hand gun. There are exceptions of course, when the home invasion gang of 6 or 8 bad guys hit you the rifle would be better, at least till you go down. I think I'll set up half a dozen Claymores and be sure.

[MTT TL]

Lots of people use birdshot at HD ranges for HD. After extensive testing, the US Army adopted it for CQB in their shotguns to cut down on penetration as well. At close ranges it is devastating and it will not go through three whole walls of dry wall of an average length house. The odds of it exiting out of your house at all and doing damage to an unintended target outside your house is very low.

But I think that the shotgun’s reputation among the general gun-owning public as being the ideal HD firearm is undeserved. I think the shotgun is overrated for HD, and the AR is underrated.

I think each has their place and there are a lot of variables at play. I have not seen anyone knowledgeable about guns or under the age of 70 down play the effectiveness of the AR15 in the HD role in the last decade. However, if for example I lived in an older townhouse sub division I wouldn't use one for HD.

[raimius]

I prefer the AR-15 for HD, but generally limit that to stationary defense with a concrete/earthen backstop. Pistols are good for mobility and doing things with your off hand. Shotguns are more effective, per trigger pull, but suffer a bit in speed, mobility, and follow up shots. (That said, most 00 buck shells deliver the equivalent of 9x .32ACP rounds per trigger pull!)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by pete2

Bart, IDPA is a game.

Exactly. Are you suggesting people’s performance improves dramatically in a gunfight for their life? They normally shoot best with an AR; but now faced with moving targets that are shooting back and that may kill them, they suddenly become better with a handgun? How does that theory work exactly?

[pete2]

It's a game and it's fun to shoot. Not realistic at all in your bed room at 3AM.

[MTT TL]

get your rifle, turn on the red dot, aim and fire.

Why would it not already be on? Many scopes out there run 10,000 hours between battery changes. Many scopes turn on when you pick the weapon up. And why not just point shoot anyway?

Unless I am lying in the bed when someone breaks down my bedroom door the rifle is going to be faster. And if I am lying in the bed the pistol won't be fast enough because the ninjas are coming to get me.

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by KY_blkout

Getting into ARs is like going down a rabbit hole, everytime you think this will be my last one you come up with another reason why you need a different setup. That's a big part of the fun for me, welcome to the dark side of rifles lol

I just built (assembled from upper assembly and stripped lower) an M4 carbine copy. Already pricing A2 parts to build a copy of an M16 Vietnam era...but boy that will be way more expensive than the one I just finished. Building is way more fun than I feel I deserve.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by pete2

It's a game and it's fun to shoot. Not realistic at all in your bed room at 3AM.

Yes, you said that already. What you haven’t done is explain the process where someone suddenly starts performing better than they do in a game under real stress. How does that work again?

[ripnbst]

I would advise...both.

Get a Primary Arms or Holosun Red Dotsight on either a lower 1/3 cowitness mount or a direct cowitness mount. Run that when shooting close range and when stored for home defense. Dont forget that you will actually have to turn it on first in the event that you end up needing to use it.

Another option is to get a Primary Arms illuminated 1-4x or 1-6x magnified optic. I still think for HD use in most homes a 1-X optic is going to be a lot slower than a red dot. It is for me anyway.

I may sound like a PA saleman but really they are the only optics I've found that are reasonable in price and yet still deliver pretty darn good quality. Others will probably recommend Vortex and thats all fine and good. But I have 4 PA optics and I cant comment on their warranty because I've never needed it. All anyone ever wants to talk about with Vortex seems to be their warranty.

[GrootHunter]

I agree with you Pete, a rifle for home defense isn't for everyone. However, the AR-15 is a good home defense weapon choice. This article is a great read: https://thenewsrep.com/118437/home-d...-use-an-ar-15/

[GrootHunter]

Originally Posted by pete2

It's a game and it's fun to shoot. Not realistic at all in your bed room at 3AM.

I agree with you Pete, a rifle for home defense isn't for everyone. However, the AR-15 is a good home defense weapon choice. This article is a great read: https://thenewsrep.com/118437/home-d...-use-an-ar-15/

[kymasabe]

I'm running Sig Romeo4c red dot on my home defense rifle. Folding rear sight in the down position, with A2 front sight and Romeo set at absolute cowitness...works for me, is light, fast, easy, reliable.

[MrBot]

I'm currently building two AR15s, one of which will be used for hd. ..not sure if I'll like it for that role or not as I haven't even put the thing together yet. But from what I've read I figure it'll do just fine assuming it's reliable. ..nothing in my book is more important than reliability. It's gotta go bang & cycle well. I'll always have a hg available for quick access, but I'd think a long gun would be preferred if one could get to it due to its longer sight radius. HGs are just tough at hitting a moving target. ..lots of reasons for using the AR15. I think I'm gonna like it especially for the ability to easily add things like a light & red dot. The Sig Romeo 5 just sits there in what I'll call Sleep mode 'til the carbine is touched @ which time it comes to life. ..saves the battery. ..very easy to accessorize. But who knows, maybe I'll put it together & hate it. ..will find out. But my bet is I'm gonna love it. ..could always use one of my pump shotguns but dang they kick a lot more, hold fewer rounds & I fear cycling the slide under pressure could be less reliable than letting a quality AR cycle itself.