5.56 accuracy load help

[Nathan]

The rifle is a mixmaster build: 20” WOA 1:8 twist 223 Wilde barrel; Miculek brake; Triggertech adjustable trigger, PRS Stock; ALG Forearm; SS 3-15 optic...off a rest, 0.6” shouldn’t be out of reach....

I’m shooting off an adjustable front rest...Caldwell....the rear bag is an all leather bench rest type bag. No bag lube.

I currently am loading Hornady 75gr bthp’s, in LC brass, CCI 450, and CFE 223.

Round 1: sort LC brass by year. Vary powder charge 22.2-26.5gr. It was clear that some loads were better, but no pressure signs. I don’t know if I like the way the groups turned out, but there seems to be a large sweet spot....which is good.

I’m not looking to change components at this point, my initial loads yielded a load that was under 0.800”.

So, what should I look at changing next? OAL’S, powder charge, ? I would like to see 0.600” or better.

Normally, I would reduce charge increment and repeat, but I’m thinking I want to mess with CBTO first...

[TJB101]

Ladder test with the CFE 223.

[big al hunter]

Hhmmm....what did you already do? Can't give a suggestion without knowing how you came about the previous .80 group. Which is decent for a first go around.

[std7mag]

Sorry, but more information is needed.
You have a 20" barrel, but what is the twist rate?
What kind of COAL, and how far off the lands are you?

As a side note, while CFE223 gave me decent velocities, i could not get the ES/DS low enough for my accuracy standards. And from what i've read here and elsewhere i'm not alone.

[ms6852]

I too use 75gr Hornady hpbt with cci primers and 23.5gr of RL 15. This recipes yields .680 5 shot groups at 100 yards and sub moa groups at 200. Never measured at 200 as I was nursing a twisted ankle. But the 5 shots at 200 were all inside the 1" square. My rifle is a RRA predator pursuit with a 20" heavy barrel and a PRS magpul stock.

Do not take offense, but it seems to be grouping very well, and maybe have a different shooter that has more experience shoot your rifle for you or just try different loads and powder. Other wise you have a great rifle.

[Bfglowkey]

CFE223 is a fast powder , just be wary that your load while shooting well now may jump up or change in the summer months ( assuming you have normal seasons like most of us)

Suggestions as stated above are difficult to offer without a smidge more info but here are some things you may have done already but in no particular order:

Seating depth - If you are bound to shoot them mag length then this is moot. Also be aware that seating it deeper or shallower will change your pressure and possibly your margin of safety.
Powder charge shift - load a few 0.1 grain less and 0.1 above ( as long as pressure signs are not evident) Sometimes when we are testing we overshoot a node by a hair.
Change your shooting platform - If your shooting off a bi-pod with rear bags or whatever find a more stable platform to shoot....sandbags and prone etc. Get a trusted shooter to see if they can mimic or beat your conclusion. Some will say get a sled which is OK if your doing the very final 3-5 shot test....I am not a fan but its an option. Most of our recipes never show their true potential cause they are limited by our skill.
Walk away - What I mean by this is before you shoot that load take a second and gain some confidence by shooting another rifle/load that you know you are good with. My go to gun that I have the most confidence with and pet load is my 308. It just hammers for me. I get behind it and I know that if I don't shoot amazing then its just not my day or its April 1st. With that confidence in your belt you can then shoot your test load on that rifle with some swag in your belt....silly but effective.
Lastly, check your setup. Scope rings are secure, base, Parralax, focus etc. All the little stuff we can sometimes take for granted.

Good luck!

[Nathan]

These are my load notes....

As you can see, I have only varied powder charge.

[std7mag]

Can't see anything.....

[Nathan]

Can it be seen now? Dang photobucket...

[bacardisteve]

You need to step up powder charges in much smaller increments especially in 223 you likely missed your accuracy node somewhere. In cases that small I run a ladder in .3 grain increments to find the high and low accuracy node and then go from there. I see your also using Lake city brass I assume once fired. After you sort by year deburr the flash holes and uniform your primer pockets then weight sort to weed out any odd cases. It adds extra steps but even at 100yds can shrink geoups a couple tenths. Doesnt seem like much but it adds up especially when range increases.

[Nathan]

[Stats Shooter]

I'm personally not a fan of cfe 223. It has given me great velocities in 223 and 308. But I simply cannot get it to shoot constantly. It is very temp sensitive so if the weather is different, or most importantly, as the chamber warms up , the point of impact changes.


It is really hard to beat varget or benchmark for accuracy loads in 223. I too use the hornady 75 gr bthp for accuracy loads. I run them around 2750 fps w/ varget and benchmark. in a 20" barrel.

[big al hunter]

I would run powder charges again from 22.2 to 24.3 grs, in .3 grain increments. Then work with the most accurate charge and seating depth changes.

[hounddawg]

see how the groups switch between horizontal ( with a flyer) on target 2 and vertical on target 3. I assume that target 2 was 22.3 and target 3 was 23.4 gns. Start at 24.3 and come down in .3 incs and watch that group get round and tighten up. The flyer on target 2 was most likely due to shooter error. I am assuming this is a gas gun and limited options to play with seating depth

[Nathan]

Why omit 25.4gr which also shot well?

So no CBTO adjustments, huh?

I assume that target 2 was 22.3 and target 3 was 23.4 gns.

#2-23.2
#3-24.3

I am assuming this is a gas gun and limited options to play with seating depth

It is set to 2.245” now, but I could probably set to 2.255” on the long side....and then go shorter like 2.235-2.215” on the short end, but that seems too short.

The #3 and #1 groups vertical make me think I need more pressure, but how is #2 vertical! #5 seems over pressure to me.


BTW, these groups were shot round robin style as I basically follow OCW methodology.

[hounddawg]

if the two top shots in 25.4 were shooter technique you could start there and go up. It might be worth ten rounds to see what is what. Target 5 is unworkable and with two way up on target 4 might be is where the the groups get too shaky to work with. Any chrono data ? Any chance of stretching the targets out to 300 or 200 ?

edit - more data would be good like wind conditions, velocity, called flyers etc

also Stats shooter is dead on, go get some Varget. Best group I ever shot with my bolt gun was CFE223 (5 in a 1/4 MOA @ 200) but like Stats says it is temperamental. Same target had groups shot with the identical load were over a MOA.

[Nathan]

edit - more data would be good like wind conditions, velocity, called flyers etc

Wind 0-3mph, 45F, velocity not measured.....later, no flyers known.

[Nathan]

Do not take offense, but it seems to be grouping very well, and maybe have a different shooter that has more experience shoot your rifle for you or just try different loads and powder. Other wise you have a great rifle.

Please don’t take this the way it sounds. I’m the best shooter I know....I do need to meet more better shooters. I have been shooting rifles for 34 years. My best groups ever are with a friends Savage 10 in 308 at 0.3-0.5” depending on the day. My Savage 12 300 WSM is shooting 0.6” groups on a good day. I have shot this rest setup for at least 10 years. The rifle is a year old...it is the new piece in this system. I was disappointed with my first try at mixed brass groups. This is already much better.

[Nathan]

Ladder test with the CFE 223.

Can you post a link to the proper way to load and shoot a ladder?

What kind of COAL, and how far off the lands are you?

Miles off the lands .....like 0.1”, but I can measure if it helps...

Lastly, check your setup. Scope rings are secure, base, Parralax, focus etc. All the little stuff we can sometimes take for granted.

Check, check, check.....I’m a huge fan of solid mounts, torque wrenches, etc

Also, many recommendations for moving away from CFE-223. i’m married to that because I have 4lbs, it shoots great in my AR carbine 55gr loads....these freakin’ things are ~1.1” at 100yd pills, and I need this to load well through a powder measure.....I will be trying another powder after I get the best out of this setup.

[Unclenick]

I agree with Stats Shooter on powders. I've had some good results with H322 as well, but with lighter bullets than you are shooting. Varget works best for me with the 75 to 80-grain bullet weights. IMR4064 does well with those bullet weights, too, but in the small case volume I generally weigh loads and dispense through a drop tube for best consistency of load density. Among spherical propellants, 748 has done well with those weights, too.

You may have chosen CFE223 for the copper fouling reducing additive. Be aware you can buy copper fouling reducing additive to add to any powder you have. G. David Tubbs sells it as TUBBDUST. Adds about $1.30 to the cost of a pound of powder.

Ignition is an issue for all spherical powders because they burn from large combustion surface area to smaller (as opposed to stick powder perforations which burn wider from the inside out, thereby increasing burning surface area as they go). So, making spherical grains burn progressively (making gas at a progressively faster rate as the burn continues up to the peak rate point in the characteristic curve) requires a deterrent gradient that starts out pretty highly concentrated at the surface and rapidly fades to lower concentration as the surface shrinks, letting the remaining powder burn faster. The high exterior deterrent concentration means adequate heat and start pressure are required to catch, spread and maintain the initial rate of deflagration.

If you look at primers made in the '80s, the flames are mostly transparent-ish in ignition photos (when German Salazar maintained The Rifleman's Journal blog, there were lots of such photos available, but alas, gone now unless you find copies of his articles elsewhere). In 1989 CCI introduced 24% hotter sparks and 16% higher pressure from their magnum primers for igniting spherical propellants through their high concentration deterrent coatings better. The heat comes from the addition of a barium compound and from metal particles that make the flame white hot and throw a shower of sparks. But that higher pressure in some smaller cases can result in increased velocity SD.

Today, standard primers made in the US typically make the white-hot spark shower, too, so formulations have changed since 1989, and you may get better velocity consistency in a smaller capacity case like the .223 Rem by using modern standard primers with spherical powders. Unfortunately, the different makers all formulate primers somewhat differently, so there is still variation in flame temperature and gas volume among them and these often change without notice. The bottom line is you just have to be prepared to try a number of primers to learn what works best. You will need a chronograph to observe the difference in velocity SD. It is the only convenient way to select one.

I had the experience with Accurate 2520 years ago of my M1A groups with it being half-again bigger than my stick powder groups. I tried a number of things, but found deburring flash holes actually got the groups down with the stick powder groups. So, in addition to the best primer, a clear ignition path may help.

Carefully seated primers will almost always help. One way is to use a tool that lets you feel when the primers just kiss the bottom of the primer pocket, and when they do, measure how far below flush with the head they are, and then go back and push them in another 0.003" to compress the priming mix with the anvil of the primer by that much (called either Setting The Bridge, or Reconsolidation). You will quickly learn what it feels like to get them the right depth and be able to do it without stopping to measure the kiss point.

That 0.003" number was found to be ideal by Naval Ordnance at Indian Head in the 1980s and remains a good general recommendation today. Since primers keep changing, you can call the maker of the ones that work best for you to confirm that recommendation is valid with their product. Most primer makers have their products in commercial ammunition for which they have determined best seating for setting up their machines. Just be aware they will often just tell you how far below flush to seat them and that they will have made that determination with their brand of bulk brass, so you want to know their average primer pocket depth as well to compare to your own.


There are different ladder approaches. Newberry's OCW method works for most folks. The original Audette ladder works most of the time. The velocity flat spot ladders have gained popularity but based on Dave Milosevich's description of their limitations in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, they aren't guaranteed to identify the very best spots without checking them against an Auddette ladder or and OCW ladder for synchronization.

[jetinteriorguy]

I know you want to keep using these same components, but in the heavier weight bullets the best results I've had are with the following powers starting with best and in descending order. Varget, RE15, Benchmark, H4895, and IMR4064. But, Varget is definitely best.

[HiBC]

I use exactly the same RE-15 load described in post #5.

I went in wanting Varget to be THE powder,but RE-15 gave me my targeted velocity.I could not get there with Varget.

However,Varget IS my 69 gr powder of choice. Works great in an AR-10,too.

There are good reasons to choose the 75 gr Hornady,but sometimes the rifle chooses. The 77 gr SMK's and the Nosler 77 gr Custom Comps may be worth some sampling.

I heard you,that you are the best shot you know.I heard you that you shoot very nice groups with a bolt gun.I heard you that you have been doing it 30 yrs. I'm not questioning any of it.

I don't have a slick answer. But I would not entirely dismiss the possibility there is some fine point of technique might be good for 0.3 MOA

[std7mag]

I use the ladder test described by Sierra Bullets. Just Google search Sierra ladder test.

While the already mentioned powders do well, i'd also add Alliant Power Pro 2000, especially with heavier bullets.
Has worked well for me.

[ms6852]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Please don’t take this the way it sounds. I’m the best shooter I know....I do need to meet more better shooters. I have been shooting rifles for 34 years. My best groups ever are with a friends Savage 10 in 308 at 0.3-0.5” depending on the day. My Savage 12 300 WSM is shooting 0.6” groups on a good day. I have shot this rest setup for at least 10 years. The rifle is a year old...it is the new piece in this system. I was disappointed with my first try at mixed brass groups. This is already much better.

I had no idea of your experience and with many novice shooters joining I was just covering all bases. My experience also with AR's show that for the most part 1.5 inch groups is the standard. Both the AR's I own have shown me that they shoot better at lower velocities starting at about 2550 fps and below 2800. I think your just going to have to go through a variety of powders and find what your AR likes. Mine did not like any of the powders posted above. Let us know what your final out come was, I am interested to know.

[T. O'Heir]

"...CCI 450..." You do not need magnum primers for CFE 223 loads.
26.5 grains of CFE 223 is 1.5 grains above the current Max load given by Hodgdon. 1.5 isn't likely to be enough to cause and grief even though the magnum primers can increase pressures. Variations in manuals can be more than 1.5.
Suggest you re-do the whole thing. Quit fiddling with the OAL and use the Max OAL given in your manual(2.250" will do nicely.). (Forget the off the lands stuff until you have worked up the load. It's just a load tweaking technique that involves 100% trial and error anyway.) Start at 23.0, the current Start load, and go up by half a grain to the Max load of 25.0. Then shoot off a solid bench for group only. One target per load. No ladders.
"...0.6” shouldn’t be out of reach..." Unlikely unless you have a match grade barrel and those HPBT's are match grade bullets.
"...the ladder test..." Does not tell you anything about the accuracy of a particular load out of a particular rifle. The ladder test only tells you the POI in relation to other loads.