"better tirgger"

Excoastie · April 27, 2017, 08:24 PM

I keep hearing and reading about this gun "has a better trigger" than that gun...

What exactly does this mean?

I have heard (and seen) several references to how bad the trigger is on the S&W Shield 9mm, yet I have no fault with it. It makes the gun go bang when I pull it, and I am able to hit what I'm aiming at reasonably well.

I recently started looking for a little .380, and I heard in several different local gun stores how gun "A" had a better trigger than gun "B".

I guess in my ignorance I just figured that a trigger on a gun was a lot like a clutch on a car, no two are ever exactly the same; they tend to 'grab' in slightly different spots.

Just curious

Exco

zukiphile · April 27, 2017, 08:34 PM

Quote:

What exactly does this mean?

It means they like it better.

Use an AR with a heavy gritty trigger, or my last out of the box 10/22 that I could swing like a pendulum holding it by only the trigger and it still wouldn't let the hammer fall, and you'll have a fine sense of a worse trigger.

James K · April 27, 2017, 11:49 PM

There are several trigger characteristics, some of which, if bad, can seriously affect accuracy. First is weight, or the number of pounds (ounces) of dead weight required to "pull" the trigger when hung from the trigger with the gun pointed directly upward. That is the method used in measuring trigger pull weight for compliance with match shooting rules. There are scales and spring measures made that can also be used, more conveniently, but not as accurately or officially.

The less the pull weight, given the use to which the gun will be put, the better as long as it is safe.

The second is smoothness. That usually depends of how well the trigger, the sear, and other parts have been polished. No trigger can be very good if the trigger/sear surfaces look, under magnification, like a rocky road that has been run over by a bulldozer. The resulting feel is usually described as "creep".

Generally, a heavy but smooth and consistent pull can be overcome with practice. A rough pull is much harder to deal with, and most shooters will have a rough trigger pull improved if possible. But there are many traps for the unwary in trying to work on trigger pulls. The most common BAD result is ending up with a trigger pull that is too light and dangerous.

Jim

Phoenix54c · April 28, 2017, 07:24 AM

Excoastie, a friend recently walked me through the answer to the question you're asking. He let me try some of his hunting rifles that had custom trigger work done. They were light and broke crisply (no creep), and the difference next to my own was like night and day. As he put it to me, a good trigger can make a decent shot a "good" shot.

The gentleman above gave a much more complete explanation. May I suggest that you look into two-stage triggers? This graph is more illustrative of what a two-stage trigger feels like. I got one myself, and I'm not going back.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...9at71513PM.png

g.willikers · April 28, 2017, 08:20 AM

There's other considerations, too.
Like the amount of overall travel, distinctive reset, trigger shape, for examples.
Everyone has their own ideas of what kind of trigger they prefer or are used to.
Since you have no objection to the one on your pistol, you're there - no further effort required.

BoogieMan · April 28, 2017, 09:56 AM

At the OP.- This is sound advice.

Quote:

Everyone has their own ideas of what kind of trigger they prefer or are used to.
Since you have no objection to the one on your pistol, you're there - no further effort required.

If you like it and shoot it well than its a good trigger. Personally I like a stiff double action trigger on a self defense gun #8+. Speed comp gun under #4 with very little take-up and a short reset, and I have a precision rifle with a 12oz single stage trigger.

ShootistPRS · April 28, 2017, 04:38 PM

The attributes of a good trigger are:
A pull weight that facilitates accuracy under the conditions of use. If the trigger increases in weight as you pull it - it is "stacking".
Travel, the farther a trigger moves without doing anything the "worse" it is. This is due to the amount of engagement with the sear and is called creep..
The "break" is what you feel as the trigger and sear separate. A good trigger will feel like a glass rod just broke. If it catches or feels spongy it is not as good as it could be.
The "over travel" is how much the trigger can move after it breaks. Over-travel is not good for accuracy.
Trigger reset is how far the trigger has to be released before it can do its job again. Revolvers typically have to be completely released to properly reset and most semi autos have a longer reset than a good bolt action.

In a hunting rifle I prefer a 4 pound trigger pull with no creep, a crisp clean break and no over-travel. The length of reset is not a big deal in a bolt action because you need to work the bolt to get ready for the next shot anyway. In my pistols (revolvers and semi-autos) I like a smooth pull with no stacking and no less than four pound pull. I like no over-travel but that is hard to achieve with most handguns. A longer reset is safer with semi-autos because you are less likely to discharge a second round unintentionally. My single action handguns have the pull adjusted to 4 pounds, no creep, a crisp break and no over-travel. Again reset is unimportant because you have to cock the hammer to fire the next round anyway.

Nathan · April 29, 2017, 01:28 PM

Honestly, most people would be better off to shoot 1000 rounds instead of worrying or buying a modified trigger.

The goal of most shooting is to be fast and accurate. This means different things for different disciplines.

Still, you want to be fast and accurate.

1000 rounds of practice is a good way to improve. A trigger, not so much.

I find the only time I like trigger mods are to make several brands of guns of a similar type shoot similarly. I like all of my SD guns to be 4.5-5.5lbs and fairly crisp with some take up. I also like all to have a thumb safety.

Bill DeShivs · April 29, 2017, 02:08 PM

There is a lot more to guns than self-defense.

Nathan · April 29, 2017, 03:52 PM

True, I assumed SD when the op said little 380.

But even if I think hunting or target shooting, I can usually tie the trigger to what helps/hinders accuracy. Speed has value on paper too, it is hard to hold a target pistol on bullseye forever!

dakota.potts · April 29, 2017, 11:27 PM

A "worse" trigger can range from being simply user preference to actually hindering the shooting capability.

Typically, a "bad" trigger exhibits some or all of the following qualities:
Too heavy/hard to pull
Travel not smooth (gritty, mushy, spongy)
Does not break consistently or repeatedly
Hurts the finger when pulled (snaps, slaps or bites)
Double Action Stacking (trigger pull weight increases through the pull)

A good trigger will be as light as it needs to be (no 12oz trigger on a defensive gun or really even a semi-auto), repeatable, consistent reset, clean travel and pull, smooth, and easy to manipulate in some way.

I have felt fantastic 9 lb trigger pulls on a revolver and terrible 5 lb trigger pulls (just had to replace one on a Springfield 1903a3 rifle that had about 4 different stages of creep and no clear break).

When it comes to bad triggers on pocket .380s, they can be a problem. A Shield has a pretty decent trigger for self-defense, although I personally don't like it. With small .380s, particularly double actions, you have a really long pull that can be heavy, stagy, and have a poor reset (too long or too stagy). With such a little gun, trying to pull the trigger quickly, it is very possible that the trigger pull hinders your ability to get effective and rapid hits on a target. May not matter at 3 yards, but 10 or 15 is a different story. Of course it can be overcome but I consider it a hinderance regardless.

Excoastie · May 1, 2017, 07:18 AM

OK, thanks everyone.

I will have to grab several different guns to compare the triggers, find some that are considered good, and others that are considered not so good to see if I can feel the difference.

Exco

**4V50 Gary** · May 1, 2017, 08:44 AM

There is a difference between a smooth and a light trigger. Smooth denotes little or no creep. Light is the poundage required for the sear to separate from the trigger.

For a smooth trigger, a very old S&W revolver with a tear drop shaped sear or a Colt Python or even a modern German Korth revolver fills the bill. Modernly the CZ-75 is almost up there with the Python. This is both in the double action and the single action mode.

Rule3 · May 20, 2017, 03:58 PM

That is way there are so many many triggers available for say and AR 15.

You can spend half the price of a rifle on a new trigger.

Look at Glocks (if you must) again so many trigger upgrades for them Stock trigger works but is pretty awful.

What's the first thing lots of Ruger 10/22 buyers do. They replace everything and then have a $1,000.00 10/22

April 27, 2017, 08:24 PM	#1
Excoastie Member Join Date: September 18, 2016 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 89	"better tirgger" I keep hearing and reading about this gun "has a better trigger" than that gun... What exactly does this mean? I have heard (and seen) several references to how bad the trigger is on the S&W Shield 9mm, yet I have no fault with it. It makes the gun go bang when I pull it, and I am able to hit what I'm aiming at reasonably well. I recently started looking for a little .380, and I heard in several different local gun stores how gun "A" had a better trigger than gun "B". I guess in my ignorance I just figured that a trigger on a gun was a lot like a clutch on a car, no two are ever exactly the same; they tend to 'grab' in slightly different spots. Just curious Exco __________________ I'm going outside to stand, if anyone asks; tell them I'm OUTSTANDING

April 28, 2017, 08:20 AM	#5
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	There's other considerations, too. Like the amount of overall travel, distinctive reset, trigger shape, for examples. Everyone has their own ideas of what kind of trigger they prefer or are used to. Since you have no objection to the one on your pistol, you're there - no further effort required. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

April 29, 2017, 02:08 PM	#9
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	There is a lot more to guns than self-defense. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

April 29, 2017, 11:27 PM	#11
dakota.potts Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2013 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 3,084	A "worse" trigger can range from being simply user preference to actually hindering the shooting capability. Typically, a "bad" trigger exhibits some or all of the following qualities: Too heavy/hard to pull Travel not smooth (gritty, mushy, spongy) Does not break consistently or repeatedly Hurts the finger when pulled (snaps, slaps or bites) Double Action Stacking (trigger pull weight increases through the pull) A good trigger will be as light as it needs to be (no 12oz trigger on a defensive gun or really even a semi-auto), repeatable, consistent reset, clean travel and pull, smooth, and easy to manipulate in some way. I have felt fantastic 9 lb trigger pulls on a revolver and terrible 5 lb trigger pulls (just had to replace one on a Springfield 1903a3 rifle that had about 4 different stages of creep and no clear break). When it comes to bad triggers on pocket .380s, they can be a problem. A Shield has a pretty decent trigger for self-defense, although I personally don't like it. With small .380s, particularly double actions, you have a really long pull that can be heavy, stagy, and have a poor reset (too long or too stagy). With such a little gun, trying to pull the trigger quickly, it is very possible that the trigger pull hinders your ability to get effective and rapid hits on a target. May not matter at 3 yards, but 10 or 15 is a different story. Of course it can be overcome but I consider it a hinderance regardless. __________________ Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus) Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

May 1, 2017, 07:18 AM	#12
Excoastie Member Join Date: September 18, 2016 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 89	OK, thanks everyone. I will have to grab several different guns to compare the triggers, find some that are considered good, and others that are considered not so good to see if I can feel the difference. Exco __________________ I'm going outside to stand, if anyone asks; tell them I'm OUTSTANDING

April 27, 2017, 11:49 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There are several trigger characteristics, some of which, if bad, can seriously affect accuracy. First is weight, or the number of pounds (ounces) of dead weight required to "pull" the trigger when hung from the trigger with the gun pointed directly upward. That is the method used in measuring trigger pull weight for compliance with match shooting rules. There are scales and spring measures made that can also be used, more conveniently, but not as accurately or officially. The less the pull weight, given the use to which the gun will be put, the better as long as it is safe. The second is smoothness. That usually depends of how well the trigger, the sear, and other parts have been polished. No trigger can be very good if the trigger/sear surfaces look, under magnification, like a rocky road that has been run over by a bulldozer. The resulting feel is usually described as "creep". Generally, a heavy but smooth and consistent pull can be overcome with practice. A rough pull is much harder to deal with, and most shooters will have a rough trigger pull improved if possible. But there are many traps for the unwary in trying to work on trigger pulls. The most common BAD result is ending up with a trigger pull that is too light and dangerous. Jim

April 28, 2017, 07:24 AM	#4
Phoenix54c Member Join Date: January 28, 2015 Posts: 42	Excoastie, a friend recently walked me through the answer to the question you're asking. He let me try some of his hunting rifles that had custom trigger work done. They were light and broke crisply (no creep), and the difference next to my own was like night and day. As he put it to me, a good trigger can make a decent shot a "good" shot. The gentleman above gave a much more complete explanation. May I suggest that you look into two-stage triggers? This graph is more illustrative of what a two-stage trigger feels like. I got one myself, and I'm not going back. http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...9at71513PM.png

April 28, 2017, 04:38 PM	#7
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	The attributes of a good trigger are: A pull weight that facilitates accuracy under the conditions of use. If the trigger increases in weight as you pull it - it is "stacking". Travel, the farther a trigger moves without doing anything the "worse" it is. This is due to the amount of engagement with the sear and is called creep.. The "break" is what you feel as the trigger and sear separate. A good trigger will feel like a glass rod just broke. If it catches or feels spongy it is not as good as it could be. The "over travel" is how much the trigger can move after it breaks. Over-travel is not good for accuracy. Trigger reset is how far the trigger has to be released before it can do its job again. Revolvers typically have to be completely released to properly reset and most semi autos have a longer reset than a good bolt action. In a hunting rifle I prefer a 4 pound trigger pull with no creep, a crisp clean break and no over-travel. The length of reset is not a big deal in a bolt action because you need to work the bolt to get ready for the next shot anyway. In my pistols (revolvers and semi-autos) I like a smooth pull with no stacking and no less than four pound pull. I like no over-travel but that is hard to achieve with most handguns. A longer reset is safer with semi-autos because you are less likely to discharge a second round unintentionally. My single action handguns have the pull adjusted to 4 pounds, no creep, a crisp break and no over-travel. Again reset is unimportant because you have to cock the hammer to fire the next round anyway.

April 29, 2017, 01:28 PM	#8
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Honestly, most people would be better off to shoot 1000 rounds instead of worrying or buying a modified trigger. The goal of most shooting is to be fast and accurate. This means different things for different disciplines. Still, you want to be fast and accurate. 1000 rounds of practice is a good way to improve. A trigger, not so much. I find the only time I like trigger mods are to make several brands of guns of a similar type shoot similarly. I like all of my SD guns to be 4.5-5.5lbs and fairly crisp with some take up. I also like all to have a thumb safety.

April 29, 2017, 03:52 PM	#10
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	True, I assumed SD when the op said little 380. But even if I think hunting or target shooting, I can usually tie the trigger to what helps/hinders accuracy. Speed has value on paper too, it is hard to hold a target pistol on bullseye forever!

May 1, 2017, 08:44 AM	#13
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	There is a difference between a smooth and a light trigger. Smooth denotes little or no creep. Light is the poundage required for the sear to separate from the trigger. For a smooth trigger, a very old S&W revolver with a tear drop shaped sear or a Colt Python or even a modern German Korth revolver fills the bill. Modernly the CZ-75 is almost up there with the Python. This is both in the double action and the single action mode. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 20, 2017, 03:58 PM	#14
Rule3 Member Join Date: February 24, 2017 Location: Florida Posts: 31	That is way there are so many many triggers available for say and AR 15. You can spend half the price of a rifle on a new trigger. Look at Glocks (if you must) again so many trigger upgrades for them Stock trigger works but is pretty awful. What's the first thing lots of Ruger 10/22 buyers do. They replace everything and then have a $1,000.00 10/22 __________________ NRA Certified RSO