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Old December 30, 2008, 12:20 AM   #1
RCJ
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Effects of heavy loads on longevity

I was wondering if those that have used heavy loading from the likes of Buffalo Bore and Double Tap have noticed undo wear on mid- to large-frame revolvers. Specifically, I wanted to know if shooting 100-200 rounds of heavy Buffalo Bore through my new Smith 686P would be likely to loosen things noticeably. I've shot some UMC 158's out of it and I've been bitten by the recoil bug, I just don't want to hurt My Precious.
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Old December 30, 2008, 01:04 AM   #2
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The 686 was designed from the start for full power 357 magnums so a couple hundred rounds of BB ammo won't hurt it.

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Old December 30, 2008, 02:44 AM   #3
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You shouldn't have any excessive problems with a Smith & Wesson 686.

Now, if it was a S&W 19, or a Taurus or Charter Arms of about any flavor, I'd use a lot of caution, but the 686 is a revolver built to take full power loads.

I have between 3 and 4 thousand heavy .45 Colt loads through an original Vaquero, and it's still as tight as the day I bought it. Actually, it's tighter, since I did some custom work on it.



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Old December 30, 2008, 08:53 AM   #4
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I have some SUPER power loads that I handloaded for my 44mag with 300gr. boolits. I shot 100's of them in my Ruger Redhawk and never noticed any change in the revolver.

I shot Just 6! in my S&W 29 Silhouette and it loosened it up terrible... basically ruined the gun!!!! in just 6 rounds. I should have known better, the Smith just has way too many moving parts to handle high pressure rounds like a ruger.

Buffalo Bore does NOT even list the Smith&Wesson as one of the guns there 44 ammo should be shot in, although Smith is listed for there 357 ammo.

If you like recoil, buy a bigger gun...don't trash your 357
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Old December 30, 2008, 09:11 AM   #5
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OK, wait a sec here.

We are NOT seeing reports of Buffalo Bore, Doubletap or Grizzly Ammo rounds trashing guns. Now part of that is likely that they're premium fodder and few can afford huge diets of the stuff. It's also likely that people are shooting premium ammo out of premium guns...this is connoisseur-grade stuff.

But what Tim Sundles at BuffBore claims he's doing is using very modern quality powders combined with pressure test gear to do "long duration burns" at peak pressure, without going over max.

In other words, say you've got a caliber that tops out at 35,000psi (SAAMI) like the 357Mag. Tim is trying to bring the pressure up to 35k or close to it as soon as he can and then "hold it there" long enough to put some real heat on the slug, yet without doing a pressure spike that blows the gun.

In theory, 35k for 2 milliseconds will net you as much bullet energy as 70k for 1, yet the latter risks blowing the gun to bits while the former doesn't.

We saw this in spades during the transition from black powder to smokeless. Two loads pushing the same bullet at the same speed means the same "bullet energy", but the longer burn time of "holy black" meant peak pressure was way lower. Smokeless loads blew a lot of old guns up.

You can ONLY explore the absolute ragged edge of the envelope the way BuffBore and the like do with pressure test gear that handloaders don't have access to.

So Freedom, the fact that YOUR hot loads massively exceeded sane pressures doesn't mean that a load from a pro ammo house will.

Now with all THAT said, my vintage Charter Arms Undercover 38Spl is rated for only a moderate +P diet if at all. Ain't no way I'm going to feed it Buffalo Bore 38+P!

I *will* however feed BuffBore's highest-end 357s into my Ruger New Vaquero with no qualms at all. It's cylinder is slightly beefier than a GP100's cylinder...which along with the 686 is also a gun I consider strong enough for the wildest stuff BuffBore and the other two "thermonuclear club" companies mentioned make. I used some of DoubleTap's gnarliest 357s on a bowling ball once, split it in half with one shot and send pieces of the concrete core flying over 20 paces.

Those guys are not kidding around, but they're also not blowing people's guns up.
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Old December 30, 2008, 09:40 AM   #6
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Man, what would it cost to fire off a couple hundred BB as "practice ammo"?!
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Old December 30, 2008, 09:42 AM   #7
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FWIW I used to 'smith at a place that did the annual recertification of quite a few Police Department guns, and there was one department locally that shot their 686's with nothing but the 125 grain SJHP .357's- and those guns didn't seem suffer any ill effects.
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Old December 30, 2008, 09:51 AM   #8
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Some people may not know what to look for. Flame cutting on the top strap, increased end shake of the cylinder are the things that will occur proportionately to any revolver as the number of hot loads is fired. If one uses mostly mild loads, it will extend the life of the gun to a great extent. It will take thousands more light rounds to wear out a gun than hot loads.
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Old December 30, 2008, 09:54 AM   #9
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I'll post my experience too

Shooting regular Plain Jane 44 Magnum ammo through my 29 loosened the frame screws. Not thousands of rounds, just dozens. I don't think it loosened the action, but I wasn't educated enough to check it at that time either.

Since the 686 was designed for 357 Magnum, you should be OK. Just keep an eye on the frame screws, timing, etc. Loctite didn't work at all for me.

You paid a pretty penny for a 686. It was designed and is marked for 357 Magnum. Part of the rason you paid a pretty penny was for famous S&W customer service in case there is ever a problem.

One last question: What does the manual recommend? If you dont' go outside the recommendations in the manual, S&W will back you up 100%. (from what I've read here) Heck, sometimes even if you do, they will back you up.
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Old December 30, 2008, 10:35 AM   #10
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I shoot revolvers alot. Probably an average of 600 rounds a month. Maybe a little more in months when I shoot IDPA matches.

I carry and prefer K-frame revolvers, pre lock of course. Saturday, I did take along a 686-4+ 4" that I purchased earlier in the year. I had previously only shot it twice with WWB 38's. I shot 100 WWB 38's through it, then just for fun, 50 rounds of old Winchester 110 grain 357 LSWJHP. When I got home and was cleaning it, I found the stop notches on the 686 7-shot cylinder were peened. Slightly, not enough to throw off the timing, or be noticeable to the average buyer, but peened none the less.........from 50 rounds of 110 grain 357.

I found this curious, so I pulled out my high time model 66-2, and my high round count 19-4.

The 66-2 is a 4" former sheriffs dept trade in. No telling how many rounds have been through it. I have shot 500 125 grain 357's through it, and the forcing cone is showing erosion, and she has a very slight case of endshake. Still times, locks up, and carry's up fine. All of the stop notches showed some peening, two of them showing what I consider severe, with metal "piled up" out of the notch.

The 19-4 is my old carry revolver, and current IDPA revolver with over 12,000 rounds logged through it. Probably 3000 additional that I didn't bother to log. Conservatively, it has had 4000 158 grain 357's through it. The stop notches have lost some blue, but showed only very faint peening on two notches.

So whats my point? Well I read on the gunboards (almost daily) how "weak" the K-frame magnums are, and how "the L-frame is much stronger" and "designed to take alot of 357 shooting", and I wish to inform others that you can't prove it by me. I have yet to see in person a cracked forcing cone (going on 39 years of shooting revolvers, so maybe its early) on a K-frame, and so far the only revolvers I've shot loose, or had go out of time, have been L-frames. Two 686's, and a PC 586-5 L-comp.

I did shoot more of the lighter hotter faster 357's through the L-frames. The 66-2 I fired alot of 125 grain 357's through, and it held up much better than the internet would have me believe, though it did wear faster.........as expected.

So buy the revolver you want, that feels good in your hand, and handles best for you. Then only shoot 158 grain factory 357's through it, and keep it clean. That revolver, whether a 686+, or 4" model 19, will probably out last you. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI.
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Old December 30, 2008, 10:52 AM   #11
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I can only say that if you take my old Diamondback, I have fired 46,243 rounds out of it. Most (meaning more then 40,000 of them) were my standard load of 5 grns of unique with a 158 grn SWC. Today that is a +P load and this gun was not really rated for +P.

So what happened.

I shot it out of time once, back to the factory.
I broke a bolt spring, fixed locally
I broke a bolt spring screw and out of time again, back to the factory

And that is it.

Guns are a lot stronger then most think. I suggest that a few hundred rounds of hot ammo is probably pretty reasonable for your L frame. While I cannot give you any advice, I know I don't worry about it with my guns. I know that as I get older, I buy more guns and individuals like my Diamondback don't get shot much anymore. Out of the 20,205 rounds I shot this year, I fired 10 different calibers and at least 20 different guns. Not one of them gets all of the wear and tear anymore.
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Old December 30, 2008, 11:07 AM   #12
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Over the past couple years or so, I have been reading countless threads regarding pressure and recoil and standard and "plus" pressures and duration of burn time, etc., etc. I still find it difficult to find definitive answers but one thing seems to become clearer and clearer.

There is no such thing as something for nothing.

That seems to be true in ballistics, the economy, and life in general.
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Old December 30, 2008, 12:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18DAI
All of the stop notches showed some peening, two of them showing what I consider severe, with metal "piled up" out of the notch.
Sir, peening of the bolt notches results from rapid cycling of the action, either by thumb cocking or high speed double action shooting (as in rapid trigger squeeze, not pulling the trigger as fast as you can till empty).
Recoil is linear, or straight back, not sideways. Therefore there shouln't be any undue wear on the locking notches.

As far as the OP, the 586/686 will take a steady diet of so-called "hot" loads like Buffalo Bore. Their loads as already pointed out are running at saami specs and therefore are not really hot at all, rather they run where the round was designed for. All this talk about not shooting .357's in a .357 seems silly to me. The manufacturers design their guns for such loads. The exception is the K-frame S&W which was really designed for .38 power levels, but was adapted for use with the more powerful .357. I don't believe the J-frame size guns were really designed for continued use with full power .357's, but were expected to be shot occasionally with them and carried so loaded. IThey were expected to be shot mostly with .38's for practice purposes I believe.

Yes you will get some flame cutting, but it should only go so deep then stop. This has been documented several times. Sure a steady diet of full power loads will loosen up certain guns, but the 586/686, and GP100 will last for a very long time with full power .357's , if properly taken care of. Heavier framed guns will last even longer.
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Old December 30, 2008, 12:42 PM   #14
RCJ
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Thanks so much for all the info. The consensus seems to be about what I expected, the gun will be fine but the expected loosening will occur somewhat sooner than shooting WWB .38s (which, btw, feel like a .22LR out of this gun, great for convincing non-enthusiasts that guns don't have to hurt on both ends).

One more recoil question: I've always assumed that at max-pressure, heavier bullets would generate more felt recoil, but after reading these responses, it seems that 125's have more of a reputation for recoil. So, assuming the same pressure, would a 180 grain or 125 grain have stouter recoil?
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Old December 30, 2008, 01:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Slightly, not enough to throw off the timing, or be noticeable to the average buyer, but peened none the less.........from 50 rounds of 110 grain 357.
Quote:
I shot Just 6! in my S&W 29 Silhouette and it loosened it up terrible... basically ruined the gun!!!! in just 6 rounds.
LOL, gonna have to put the boots on to wade thru some of this.

Jim
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Old December 30, 2008, 04:02 PM   #16
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Well it is a complex problem which is worse in terms of bullet weight. A lot has to do with burn time and pressure curves of the powder.

Picture the problem with hot loads. Assuming you are not exceeding the tensile strength of the cylinder and having it expand on ever shot.....

Think through the events of firing. First the firing pin falls and hits the primer driving the cylinder, primer and cartridge forward till it hits the barrel if the head space is too large or the crane boss and stops. Now the primer fires and the pressure expands and pushes the primer back against the recoil shield. Next the powder burns and starts pushing the bullet forward and the brass backwards. But the pressure is low so the case walls will not grip the cylinder wall well, thus the cylinder is still forward. Next the pressure pushes the brass casing back over the primer reseating it and the bullet is jammed into the cylinder leade pushing it far forward till it eventually starts to cross the cylinder gap.

Here is where the damage occurs. As the bullet clears the cylinder gap, the cylinder is all the way forward as the bullet has dragged it forward while the case head is back against the recoil shield. Once the bullet clears the gap, high pressure gases hit the cylinder gap and force the cylinder backwards to maximize the gap and release the pressure. Thus the cylinder comes flying back toward the recoil shield and the ratchet with a lot of velocity and pressure. It then slams against the frame beating it apart.

As you can see this is a progressive problem and it gets worse over time. The more rounds you fire, the quicker it happens and the higher pressure rounds, the quicker it happens.

Now my response? Big deal. Unless it is truly a collectible, don't worry about it since over time you will be able to buy other guns and the wear will diminish on any one.
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Old December 30, 2008, 04:23 PM   #17
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You'll spend many times the price of a good handgun on the ammo it takes to wear it out. If you manage to do it, go buy another and be thankful that you shoot as well as you do as a result of all the practice you got.



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Old December 30, 2008, 07:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
LOL, gonna have to put the boots on to wade thru some of this.

Jim
OK, so I know that the loads that damaged my Smith 29 were not even close to the SAAMI "safe level. I was using a Sierra 300gr. with so much H110 that I had to change primers because a CCI 350 would not ignite the charge I was useing.

But the bottom line is that my Rugers held up just fine through 100's of the High Power magnums. While the Smith got so loose after just 6 rounds I was very discouraged and upset...I Love my Smiths but after this education I never abused them again.

I agree that a 357Mag "should" be shot with 357MAGS...just don't abuse it and don't treat it like you would a Ruger. With that being said, Smith will usually fix the gun for free if you destroy it with High pressure rounds.

Felt recoil increases with boolit weight. Velocity also plays a role but not near as much as the Grain weight of the boolit. A 125gr. will not even come close to the recoil of a 158gr. or a 200gr.,
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Old December 30, 2008, 07:27 PM   #19
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The 686 will handle full house (or even specialty "hot" rounds like BB and DT) as well or better than any revolver. Sure, if you shoot 10,000 of Buffalo Bore's hottest, it's gonna show more wear than 147 grain .38 spl target wadcutters.

Tim Sundles at Buffalo Bore is a professional with perhaps unequaled experience at getting the most from handgun loads while staying within SAAMI specs. I buy their stuff a lot and look at it as paying extra for experience and craftsmanship versus mass assembled components.
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Old December 31, 2008, 04:47 AM   #20
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Tim also uses powders that are not commonly avaliable to the handloader.
Jim, that was a GREAT post. I've saved it, and, I'm going to use it. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old December 31, 2008, 03:19 PM   #21
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"I was using a Sierra 300gr. with so much H110 that I had to change primers because a CCI 350 would not ignite the charge I was useing."

I hope I'm never standing next to this reloader when I'm at the range.
Personally if you shoot this kind of stuff through a Smith and it damages the gun you should not complain about the gun, you should complain about the person in the mirror.
I own a 629 and a 29 and have shot them both thousands of rounds, from factory to upper power reloads and I use the same 240 GR lead bullet in all that time. Both are as tight as the day they were first pulled out of the box.
I also have a Charter arms Bulldog that has had near 1000 rounds of factory 44 special and reloads of the same lead bullet in upper 44 sp loads and it’s just as tight.
I also know if I load for the charter with so much H110 that I had to change primers because a CCI 350 would not ignite the charge I was using. It would be a piece of crap in 6 rounds yet the 629 would handle them just fine.
So what. I don’t “abused” my Smiths or my Charter Arms.
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Old December 31, 2008, 05:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
I hope I'm never standing next to this reloader when I'm at the range.
You've just said bluntly what I was trying to say in more polite fashion...

You're also absolutely right.
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Old December 31, 2008, 06:11 PM   #23
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Back in the early 70s, I had a S&W Model 19 and a Colt Python. We got a very good deal on three cases of .357 from a state trooper, so we shot the fool out of these two revolvers. The S&W went out of time, so I took it to a gunsmith and he said that I had stretched the frame. I sent it back to S&W and they replaced it. I really like S&W revolvers and have 9 now. Smoothest stock triggers available. I just don't put 1000s of rounds of .357 thru a K frame. I do shoot 325 grain BBs but in a 45 Colt and a 44 Magnum Redhawk.
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Old December 31, 2008, 06:33 PM   #24
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I was talking to a Smith and Wesson rep on the phone one day about this very thing. He said it's very simple. No matter what gun, or what they are designed or not designed to shoot, the hotter the ammo that is put through that particular gun, the more wear that will take place on that gun as opposed to milder loads being used in it. It does not mean they are excessive, or should not be used, but the law of physics rules here. Now that brings up the question of how much is too much or excessive for any given gun. Sometimes this is hard to quantify. It's just a good idea to know what gun you have, what it's rated for, and how it will be used. Like Jim March said, all guns are not the same, and each case is different. In regards to the 686, it's pretty stout, and should do well with SAAMI spec ammo from any manufacturer. jben
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Old December 31, 2008, 06:43 PM   #25
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Yes, the hotter loads will wear out your revolver faster than the milder ones, but the round count required to wear it out will be so high that you could likely purchase the revolver several times over for the cost of the ammo to wear it out (this is especially true with Buffalo Bore, they're pricey). I very highly doubt that shootin 100-200 rounds through your revolver every now and then is going to wear on it appreciably.
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