Is 4 rounds of 00 buck enough for home defense? - Page 2

ShootemDown · January 25, 2008, 06:08 PM

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You hit a person with #6 shot at 10 to 20 feet...well...he's gonna have some severe problems! Yeah...he'll bleed...BADLY!! Within 10 feetand well placed...I'm sure the M.E. would have another corpse to deal with.

that is true if you shot me. the normal reasonable person.

but it wont stop some hopped up maniac bent on doing you harm. little pellets sprinkled on a hopped up, crazy, high, emotionally disturbed person just wont do...

I use 1oz slugs.

Inverness11 · January 25, 2008, 06:28 PM

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Relax, sit down and have a cold beer. Training is far more important than what loads or how many shots you have.

Thanks for the reality check! I'm just trying to decide between a dedicated defense gun with higher capacity or a new barrel for what I've got.

I think I'll take my 870, a couple hundred rounds of birdshot, and some silhouette targets to the farm when it warms up and work on proficiency rather than worry about capacity.

Besides, in most cases the bad guy will drop dead from a heart attack or stroke just from the sound of racking the slide, right?

craigcolorado · January 25, 2008, 10:46 PM

true about someone on PCB.....but....again, a well placed head shot....problem over with. I know....in the heat of the moment, things can go crazy and yes...it's better to simply stop the intruder. I'm just thinking if someone just burst in your home...I really don't think any of us will be able to react to this in time.

Hard choices...that's why I have my 4'' barreled 357 mag within arms reach while in bed....sometimes even while sitting in the living room. Just the way it is folks.

ibfestus · January 26, 2008, 12:10 AM

that had been shot at about 10 feet with bird shot from a sawed off 20 gauge. Half her head was gone. She was dead before the BG could pump another round. I also saw a deer shot at 40 yards with #4 Buck. All 28 buckshot were in a 10 inch circle and at least half exited on the other side.

I keep my 870 behind a curtain within reach from the bed and it is loaded with 1 #6 bird shot and 3 #4, 3 inch mag buck. This is a recent change, I used to load up with slugs all the way until I had a early morning encounter with an attack raccoon. That sucker was hard to hit when he was moving!

Tamara · January 26, 2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibfestus

I also saw a deer shot at 40 yards with #4 Buck. All 28 buckshot were in a 10 inch circle and at least half exited on the other side.

Getting over 12" of penetration in living tissue with #4 buck at 40 yards? Color me skeptical.

castnblast · January 26, 2008, 09:49 AM

I'd go with bird shot too...ever seen what happens to a watermelon shot w/ #8 at say 3-5 yds? That's about the same thing it will do to a person. In addition, if you miss, the drywall will eventually slow the shot down enough to not endanger those in other rooms. Buck shot has a lot more inertia behind the pellets, and will take something a little more substantial to stop it, which may injure someone you don't want to injure.

UniversalFrost · January 26, 2008, 11:28 PM

4 shots is plenty. with an 18.5 to 24" barrel and a folding buttstock or pistol grip and you are good to go. I prefer 0 Buck, but 00 is fine as well. Heck you could use no 9 shot in a house and have devastating results on the attacker.

GATMOG · January 27, 2008, 02:20 AM

4 rounds is plenty in my oppinion..

Personally, I keep 4 rounds of #7 bird in the tube because I have family in the house... But if needed, the butcuff has 2 rounds of magnum 00 buck, 2 rounds of 1oz slugs, and another round of bird.

m24shooter · January 27, 2008, 10:27 AM

This is going to sound a little crazy, but here's how I see it.
If I am in the circumstance of being able to say "Boy, I had three or six more shots than I needed" after a gun fight, that is a hell of a lot better than somebody ELSE saying "Boy, if only M24shooter had three more rounds in his shotgun."
Not even going to touch the whole birdshot issue or using escalating levels of lethality in a mag tube.

Double Naught Spy · January 27, 2008, 01:42 PM

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true about someone on PCB.....

Yep, I worry about people being on coolants and additives to PVC. After all, PCB can be extremely toxic (Polychlorinated biphenyls). Now, PCP, that is a whole other ballgame...

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4 rounds is plenty in my oppinion..

Personally, I keep 4 rounds of #7 bird in the tube because I have family in the house... But if needed, the butcuff has 2 rounds of magnum 00 buck, 2 rounds of 1oz slugs, and another round of bird.

Wow, 4 rounds is plenty, but you have 5 additional rounds carried on board? So maybe you don't really think 4 rounds is actually plenty?

Quote:

I'd go with bird shot too...ever seen what happens to a watermelon shot w/ #8 at say 3-5 yds? That's about the same thing it will do to a person.

Well birdshot may stop a watermelon and it does some impressive damage to a watermelon, but people are not watermelons and bird shot does not do the same thing to a person as it does to a watermelon. Unless it is a contact shot, a person isn't going to explode when hit by bird shot and it only happens with contact or very near contact shots when a large volume of gas is injected from the muzzle into the body. You can blow a watermelon into chunks with a single shot from 10 yards. That doesn't happen to people at all.

UniversalFrost · January 27, 2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Well birdshot may stop a watermelon and it does some impressive damage to a watermelon, but people are not watermelons and bird shot does not do the same thing to a person as it does to a watermelon. Unless it is a contact shot, a person isn't going to explode when hit by bird shot and it only happens with contact or very near contact shots when a large volume of gas is injected from the muzzle into the body. You can blow a watermelon into chunks with a single shot from 10 yards. That doesn't happen to people at all.

No, birdshot may not be lethal at close range, but if i got hit with a round of birshot at 5-10 yards I sure wouldn't be thinking of staying around for another round. plus it is non lethal and you don't have to worry about it penetrating through walls and any other folks on the other side of walls.

JOE

m24shooter · January 27, 2008, 01:59 PM

But we are not talking about shooting YOU. YOU are probably sober, rational, invested in normal living, and deterred by the thought of criminal penalties. Not to mention understanding that a GSW can really mess up your day.
The person who is likely to be shot in the circumstances described (an HD/SD situation) is not like most people if any on this board.
They tend to not think along the same lines. They make poor decisions (there is a reason they are criminals). They are frequently chemically altered. They tend to not make rational decisions. They have already decided to separate for normal civilized rules by intruding into your home or otherwise crossing a line so that deadly force is authorized. The frequently think they are smarter/faster/tougher/more hard-core than others.
Just because YOU would be stopped/deterred/run away doesn't mean one of them would.
As for it being non-lethal, it is definitely not. It can be lethal. That by no means makes it ideal for use in HD/SD settings. A sharp stick is lethal. But I'm not using one unless I have to.
And anything that is going to be a reliable fight-stopper, meaning enough penetration to be able to cause rapid exsanguination or severe damage and destruction to the CNS is going to penetrate barriers to some extent.

Bill DeShivs · January 27, 2008, 02:14 PM

MOST criminals are not irrational meth or PCP addicts. VERY few would keep coming if they thought they would be shot. MOST are sneaky, cowardly idiots- and are not bent on killing you at all cost. They want to steal your stuff, and some are willing to kill you in the process.

m24shooter · January 27, 2008, 02:22 PM

Understood.
But as long as you want to play the odds, you've already departed the statistical norm by being in a shooting situation. Somebody said if you need more than one shot, you're in trouble. Well, if you need any shots you're in trouble.
I've seen enough of them that weren't deterred to not care about the level of determination of anybody that places me in that position. I'll assume the worst on their part, and hopefully be prepared for it.
In my determination, its not the odds, its the stakes.

allentbader · January 27, 2008, 05:39 PM

You find a BG in your home who isn’t deterred by the initial rattach-attacht of a pump shotgun.... consider yourself in serious trouble.

4 rounds or 40, make the first one count.

Perldog007 · January 27, 2008, 06:28 PM

I keep three in my mossy. Also keep the odd pistol and revolver or two handy.

I don't think I need to carry a gun at all times around the house, but have made it a habit to do so. That way if the need ever arises (bad storm with lack of basic services and accompanying lawlessness) I don't have to learn a new drill at the worst possible time.

I don't think I will ever need a shotgun for defense, but keep one with empty chamber and three in the magazine just in case I thought wrong.

crowbeaner · January 27, 2008, 06:41 PM

If the SOUND of a pump shotgun being cycled doesn't stop the advance of the BG, then shoot. 4 rounds might be enogh if you make the first one count. Just be aware that over penetration at close range is definitely in the realm of possibility though. CB.

alienhunter3 · January 31, 2008, 10:16 PM

I agree with allentbader. I saw this question on another forum. Pretty much my favorite answer was that if you need more than 5 rounds of buckshot, you're pretty much screwed. If someone is determined enough, or drugged up enough, or well equipped enough, they'll keep coming when they should be incapacitated. When planning for this scenario, you have to balance the extreme off-chance that you'll have trained mercenaries with body armor coming after you against the possibility of killing your neighbors (or your family) through a wall with whatever you decide to come up with to stop those theoretical bad guys. With that said, I have to think that practice will count for a lot more than type or amount of ammunition. Anyways, that's just the opinion of a relative youngster. Cheers

rocinante · February 1, 2008, 06:40 AM

These threads are always fun. Is 4 rounds of 00 buck enough for home defense? At the best you have the outside chance of neutralizing four assailants. I just love euphemisms. I would tend to think in a home 4 rounds of 00 buck would suffice. You will have to aim no if ands or buts.

As far as accessibility and safety it is a tough one on a tube fed shotgun. I have a small keypad safe that I keep a loaded and ready pistol and loaded magazines for my saiga 12. The shotgun sits next to it with the bolt already open ready for a ten shell magazine. Thats about as fast and quick access as I can be comfortable with two boys 8 and 11 in the house and all their hoodlum friends. If they got hold of a single shell they could load it but that is unlikely.

predator86 · February 1, 2008, 07:31 AM

for those of you who are suggesting to use birdshot i highly recomend that you check out this website- www.theboxotruth.com

he finds out through testing that for home defense you want buckshot, the only situation where i would recomend birdshot is if you are being attacked by a flock of pigeons.....

Nnobby45 · February 3, 2008, 11:38 PM

Four rounds is enough--unless you need five.

The average is only 1 or 2, you say?. Yes, but averages aren't always covered by specific incidents which consider the extremes to get the average.

If usually enough is the criteria, then 4 rds would be fine. A veteran of such lethal encounters once said that filling the air with lead as soon as possible is most important. I assume he meant the air in front of Bubba before the miscreant took 9 00 buck.

January 25, 2008, 10:46 PM	#28
craigcolorado Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 61	hmmm.... true about someone on PCB.....but....again, a well placed head shot....problem over with. I know....in the heat of the moment, things can go crazy and yes...it's better to simply stop the intruder. I'm just thinking if someone just burst in your home...I really don't think any of us will be able to react to this in time. Hard choices...that's why I have my 4'' barreled 357 mag within arms reach while in bed....sometimes even while sitting in the living room. Just the way it is folks.

January 26, 2008, 12:10 AM	#29
ibfestus Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2006 Location: Smack dab in the middle of it... The good ol' USA that is. Posts: 126	I saw a woman... that had been shot at about 10 feet with bird shot from a sawed off 20 gauge. Half her head was gone. She was dead before the BG could pump another round. I also saw a deer shot at 40 yards with #4 Buck. All 28 buckshot were in a 10 inch circle and at least half exited on the other side. I keep my 870 behind a curtain within reach from the bed and it is loaded with 1 #6 bird shot and 3 #4, 3 inch mag buck. This is a recent change, I used to load up with slugs all the way until I had a early morning encounter with an attack raccoon. That sucker was hard to hit when he was moving!

January 26, 2008, 09:49 AM	#31
castnblast Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Location: Corpus Christi TX Posts: 1,148	I'd go with bird shot too...ever seen what happens to a watermelon shot w/ #8 at say 3-5 yds? That's about the same thing it will do to a person. In addition, if you miss, the drywall will eventually slow the shot down enough to not endanger those in other rooms. Buck shot has a lot more inertia behind the pellets, and will take something a little more substantial to stop it, which may injure someone you don't want to injure. __________________ VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter

January 26, 2008, 11:28 PM	#32
UniversalFrost Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,300	4 shots is plenty. with an 18.5 to 24" barrel and a folding buttstock or pistol grip and you are good to go. I prefer 0 Buck, but 00 is fine as well. Heck you could use no 9 shot in a house and have devastating results on the attacker. __________________ Lifetime member VFW and NRA "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead) -Red Green

January 27, 2008, 02:20 AM	#33
GATMOG Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2007 Location: OREGON Posts: 221	4 rounds is plenty in my oppinion.. Personally, I keep 4 rounds of #7 bird in the tube because I have family in the house... But if needed, the butcuff has 2 rounds of magnum 00 buck, 2 rounds of 1oz slugs, and another round of bird. __________________ *BEWARE OF ATTACK REPUBLICAN*

January 27, 2008, 10:27 AM	#34
m24shooter Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Posts: 68	This is going to sound a little crazy, but here's how I see it. If I am in the circumstance of being able to say "Boy, I had three or six more shots than I needed" after a gun fight, that is a hell of a lot better than somebody ELSE saying "Boy, if only M24shooter had three more rounds in his shotgun." Not even going to touch the whole birdshot issue or using escalating levels of lethality in a mag tube.

January 27, 2008, 01:59 PM	#37
m24shooter Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Posts: 68	But we are not talking about shooting YOU. YOU are probably sober, rational, invested in normal living, and deterred by the thought of criminal penalties. Not to mention understanding that a GSW can really mess up your day. The person who is likely to be shot in the circumstances described (an HD/SD situation) is not like most people if any on this board. They tend to not think along the same lines. They make poor decisions (there is a reason they are criminals). They are frequently chemically altered. They tend to not make rational decisions. They have already decided to separate for normal civilized rules by intruding into your home or otherwise crossing a line so that deadly force is authorized. The frequently think they are smarter/faster/tougher/more hard-core than others. Just because YOU would be stopped/deterred/run away doesn't mean one of them would. As for it being non-lethal, it is definitely not. It can be lethal. That by no means makes it ideal for use in HD/SD settings. A sharp stick is lethal. But I'm not using one unless I have to. And anything that is going to be a reliable fight-stopper, meaning enough penetration to be able to cause rapid exsanguination or severe damage and destruction to the CNS is going to penetrate barriers to some extent.

January 27, 2008, 02:14 PM	#38
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	MOST criminals are not irrational meth or PCP addicts. VERY few would keep coming if they thought they would be shot. MOST are sneaky, cowardly idiots- and are not bent on killing you at all cost. They want to steal your stuff, and some are willing to kill you in the process. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 27, 2008, 02:22 PM	#39
m24shooter Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Posts: 68	Understood. But as long as you want to play the odds, you've already departed the statistical norm by being in a shooting situation. Somebody said if you need more than one shot, you're in trouble. Well, if you need any shots you're in trouble. I've seen enough of them that weren't deterred to not care about the level of determination of anybody that places me in that position. I'll assume the worst on their part, and hopefully be prepared for it. In my determination, its not the odds, its the stakes.

January 27, 2008, 05:39 PM	#40
allentbader Junior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Location: Northwestern Ohio Posts: 5	You find a BG in your home who isn’t deterred by the initial rattach-attacht of a pump shotgun.... consider yourself in serious trouble. 4 rounds or 40, make the first one count.

January 27, 2008, 06:28 PM	#41
Perldog007 Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2007 Location: Estados Unitas / United States Posts: 986	I keep three in my mossy. Also keep the odd pistol and revolver or two handy. I don't think I need to carry a gun at all times around the house, but have made it a habit to do so. That way if the need ever arises (bad storm with lack of basic services and accompanying lawlessness) I don't have to learn a new drill at the worst possible time. I don't think I will ever need a shotgun for defense, but keep one with empty chamber and three in the magazine just in case I thought wrong.

January 27, 2008, 06:41 PM	#42
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	If the SOUND of a pump shotgun being cycled doesn't stop the advance of the BG, then shoot. 4 rounds might be enogh if you make the first one count. Just be aware that over penetration at close range is definitely in the realm of possibility though. CB. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

January 31, 2008, 10:16 PM	#43
alienhunter3 Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2008 Posts: 5	I agree with allentbader. I saw this question on another forum. Pretty much my favorite answer was that if you need more than 5 rounds of buckshot, you're pretty much screwed. If someone is determined enough, or drugged up enough, or well equipped enough, they'll keep coming when they should be incapacitated. When planning for this scenario, you have to balance the extreme off-chance that you'll have trained mercenaries with body armor coming after you against the possibility of killing your neighbors (or your family) through a wall with whatever you decide to come up with to stop those theoretical bad guys. With that said, I have to think that practice will count for a lot more than type or amount of ammunition. Anyways, that's just the opinion of a relative youngster. Cheers

February 1, 2008, 06:40 AM	#44
rocinante Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Posts: 158	These threads are always fun. Is 4 rounds of 00 buck enough for home defense? At the best you have the outside chance of neutralizing four assailants. I just love euphemisms. I would tend to think in a home 4 rounds of 00 buck would suffice. You will have to aim no if ands or buts. As far as accessibility and safety it is a tough one on a tube fed shotgun. I have a small keypad safe that I keep a loaded and ready pistol and loaded magazines for my saiga 12. The shotgun sits next to it with the bolt already open ready for a ten shell magazine. Thats about as fast and quick access as I can be comfortable with two boys 8 and 11 in the house and all their hoodlum friends. If they got hold of a single shell they could load it but that is unlikely.

February 1, 2008, 07:31 AM	#45
predator86 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: wisconsin Posts: 549	for those of you who are suggesting to use birdshot i highly recomend that you check out this website- www.theboxotruth.com he finds out through testing that for home defense you want buckshot, the only situation where i would recomend birdshot is if you are being attacked by a flock of pigeons..... __________________ Beware the man with one gun.

February 3, 2008, 11:38 PM	#46
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Four rounds is enough--unless you need five. The average is only 1 or 2, you say?. Yes, but averages aren't always covered by specific incidents which consider the extremes to get the average. If usually enough is the criteria, then 4 rds would be fine. A veteran of such lethal encounters once said that filling the air with lead as soon as possible is most important. I assume he meant the air in front of Bubba before the miscreant took 9 00 buck.