Strange car outside - Page 4

HisDudeness · July 12, 2013, 07:29 PM

SgtLumpy makes my point even clearer. I live in AZ as well. Outsiders may find it strange to see the amount of guns openly carried and the willingness of strangers to approach and question others. That is life in the Grand Canyon State. You might live in a state where the populace tends to hide under a bed and call the po po. You might live in a state somewhere in between. There is such variety in America as to what may be appropriate.

Mezzanine · July 12, 2013, 08:17 PM

Has happened to me before, 2 different vehicles. They werent the usual cars i see on my road as the traffic is generally all residents of my street... Long story short i watched them one night and it was kids what i assumed to be high schoolers smoking pot. Both cars, pretty sure different kids...

Garycw · July 12, 2013, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HisDudeness

SgtLumpy makes my point even clearer. I live in AZ as well. Outsiders may find it strange to see the amount of guns openly carried and the willingness of strangers to approach and question others. That is life in the Grand Canyon State. You might live in a state where the populace tends to hide under a bed and call the po po. You might live in a state somewhere in between. There is such variety in America as to what may be appropriate.

In east ky-tn area open carry is not a big deal. I see kids in there early 20's in wal Mart OC. No one says or thinks anything about it. There's a lot of hunting there. Connecticut or somewhere might be different. If a suspicious car was out front of a home, the homeowner wouldn't need to let them know they're armed... Everybody IS!
Little old ladies, kids.. It doesn't matter. Everyone has between 1-50. At least in the area of my farm

johnelmore · July 13, 2013, 04:40 AM

There is a certain inconvenient unpopular truth which I will state now. If Officer Smith discharges their weapon into someone for whatever reason then they have the law, the unions, the chief and lots of lawyers behind them. Most officer involved shootings are ultimately ruled justified and written off by the public as a tragic situation even when the person shot didnt even have a weapon.

On the other hand civilians do not get off so easily...

This is why I subscribe to the philosophy of not escalating a situation. I encourage involving the police when possible. Its simply not worth it in regards to yourself and the community of owners. Any shooting by a civilian can be used to champion the cause of banning firearms like the Bidens of the world want to do. If Biden had his way no one would own a firearm.

Running around displaying your firearm for situations which dont call for it helps the Bidens of the world champion their cause. Look what happened in California where it was legal to open carry an unloaded firearm. Some rights activists took to the street showing their arms and then they made new laws banning the practice. So its not a good idea to test the waters in that way because who wins? Joe Biden and his merry men.

SgtLumpy · July 13, 2013, 10:04 AM

johnelmore - May I ask what state you're in?

You seem to want to escalate the legal and common open carrying that my state does with some kind of "confronting people with a gun". Your last post takes it even to the extreme and compares LEOs vs non LEOs shooting people.

I think you're kind of molehilling here sir. Nobody in the thread suggested shooting or even confronting anyone with a gun. You seem focused on the "Oh I see a gun" issue. That may be an issue in your area, or maybe it's just specific to your personal way of viewing things. It's not in my state, nor in my personal way of viewing things.

Sgt Lumpy

johnelmore · July 13, 2013, 11:16 AM

"Confrontation" is a grey area. Approaching someone with a pistol open carrying might or might not count as "confrontation". If you are open carrying and approach someone to question them about their presence, I think that counts as confronting someone. You may not be pointing it at them, but it will take things to a different level.

Earlier in the thread there were mentions of open carrying on your property as a way to demonstrate to strangers. This method might be effective in certain situations and places, but Im just saying that doing this in every place may not be the most responsible thing to do. I would not approach a stranger open carrying unless its something which had to be done and there were no other options. I can see a few situations where it might have to be done, but most situations should not be resolved in this manner.

deepcreek · July 13, 2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Quote- SgtLumpy - You seem focused on the "Oh I see a gun" issue. That may be an issue in your area, or maybe it's just specific to your personal way of viewing things. It's not in my state, nor in my personal way of viewing things.

SgtLumpy I think you see things from a police officers point of view which is the other side of the law then normal civilians see and experience. Normal citizens run a much higher risk of going to prison for incidents involving firearms in all states.

Even if you are a retired police you still get special treatment that is why many companies hire retired police to deal with security issues.

Felonies are not something to take lightly. They destroy lives and families.

SgtLumpy · July 13, 2013, 01:54 PM

It's not a felony to open carry in my state. It's not a misdemeanor. It's not a crime. There's not even a permit needed. I never suggested confronting the car but even then, confronting a car or stranger while open carrying is not a crime in my state either.

Some of you just aren't getting that it's not illegal, nor at all uncommon to see people in AZ walking around everywhere with an open carry pistol. It's not scary or against the law or given a second thought. People will walk up to others that are carrying and say things like "Hey, do you like that Serpa holster? I'm thinking of getting one for my Beretta", stuff like that.

In contrast, by the sound of some of the posts, in some areas, or in some people's minds, it's scary to even go outside and look at a suspicious vehicle on your street.

Either way is fine with me. Different areas have different customs.

Sgt Lumpy

johnelmore · July 13, 2013, 03:28 PM

Parts of Arizona I could articulate why it might be a good idea to open carry. There is a good deal of drugs run over the border and so a stranger in a border town might not be a welcome site at times. There are also illegal immigrants crossing who might be desperate for food and shelter. That is a situation where it might be called for to display a firearm openly.

You live in a town by the border and see a stranger or car you know doesnt belong so you open carry around the property to reinforce the notion this isnt the place for their intended business.

FireForged · July 13, 2013, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Sounds like they may have you well trained.

What will they do when the lights don't come on?

exactly... many burglars will scout out or [pattern profile] a potential home if they feel it meet their other requirement. Some ring the doorbell others goof around to see if their actions draw any attn. If the police are called, they already have their "story line" rehearsed to explain why they are there.

Personally, I call the cops anytime something odd is happening around my property, which boils down to about once a year. The last one was some dude in a old nova sitting diagonal from my house in the dark smoking a cig. My house is the only one around so I called the cops. They arrived before he finished his smoke and kept him there for nearly an hour. They let him go and I never saw him or his car again. He told the police that he was lost and trying a place to buy a map??? yeah right

deepcreek · July 14, 2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

It's not a felony to open carry in my state. It's not a misdemeanor. It's not a crime. There's not even a permit needed. I never suggested confronting the car but even then, confronting a car or stranger while open carrying is not a crime in my state either.

Some of you just aren't getting that it's not illegal, nor at all uncommon to see people in AZ walking around everywhere with an open carry pistol. It's not scary or against the law or given a second thought. People will walk up to others that are carrying and say things like "Hey, do you like that Serpa holster? I'm thinking of getting one for my Beretta", stuff like that.

In contrast, by the sound of some of the posts, in some areas, or in some people's minds, it's scary to even go outside and look at a suspicious vehicle on your street.

Either way is fine with me. Different areas have different customs.

I am not debating it is legal or excepted in many areas.
What I am saying is if you get in a conformation and the other party calls the police and makes you/"the guy with a gun" sound like the aggressor it can lead to some very serous charges.

I have lived in places most all house holds have guns and most all trucks have a gun in them. And seen people get in serous trouble just because they had a gun in a confrontation even though they were not the problem.

All it takes it the wrong officer who wants to take a gun and act like they "stopped a gunman" or a prosecutor how needs an extra case. You will find them in all states. Many people claim "not in my town" but it is a national system it has no boarders.

Brian Pfleuger · July 14, 2013, 10:20 AM

The problem is not open carry. The problem is the mental aspect... WHY are you "open carrying", at THAT moment?

The responses in this thread seem to indicate that they would specifically open carry, even in places where it wouldn't be legal off your own property, specifically as a "show of force". This is a dangerous attitude.

If you happen to open carry and you happen to be washing your car or you're open carrying and it's perfectly normal to go over and inquire with the occupants of the car, super. Have at it.

Doing it to INTENTIONALLY make them aware that you have a gun, to intentionally show them the gun, is a different mental state. The occupants of the car might never know the difference but it IS different.

SgtLumpy · July 14, 2013, 10:50 AM

Brian, I think your "mental state" argument is odd. My mental state, my projected intention ANY time I'm carrying open or conceiled, or even any time I'm not carrying, is that "I'm aware of you and the rest of my surroundings and not afraid to let you know it".

I can't imagine anyone open carrying but having the mental attitude "I'm not really ready to use this" "I'm not really paying attention to what's going on around me'.

The idea that the suspicious people might get offended or scared, and then leave, is exactly the desired action, whether it involves a gun or just turning on the porch light.

Burglar, Fuller brush man, kids smoking pot or door to door religious fanatic, if they're parked where I don't feel comfortable, I want them to leave. I don't care a bit if I've hurt their feelings because of my mental attitude.

And for perhaps the dozenth time, that may be different than the way you in NY look at suspicious or undesirable people.

Sgt Lumpy

Brian Pfleuger · July 14, 2013, 10:59 AM

It's got nothing to do with location. Guns aren't tools of intimidation for law-abiding folks.

What's particularly odd is that in the thread about the convenience store robbery, you made the same point that you're arguing against in this thread, when you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SgtLumpy

Quote:

is there anything else I could have possibly done, being that I would've had my gun on me?

I don't think we should look at any differently when armed vs unarmed. We shouldn't be putting ourselves into MORE danger, just because we're armed.

Sgt Lumpy

Thanks exactly my point. You are doing something specifically because you ARE armed. You're putting yourself in a situation that you would not put yourself in without arming yourself. Else ways, why would you not just go wash your car or get your paper or go talk to them WITHOUT specifically making sure that you do it while armed, specifically so they can see your gun?

It's not about open carry or otherwise. It's about mindset.

SgtLumpy · July 14, 2013, 11:02 AM

Quote:

You're putting yourself in a situation that you would not put yourself in without arming yourself.

Negative.

I wash my car armed. I go into my front yard armed. I go to the grocery store armed. I do not intervene in armed robberies armed (or otherwise).

Let's back up, Brian.

What would YOU do if there was a suspicious vehicle parked in front of your house? Not what you think I should or shouldn't do. But what would YOU do?

Sgt Lumpy

Brian Pfleuger · July 14, 2013, 11:13 AM

You might wash your car armed but you weren't planning to wash your car, at that moment. You're doing it, at that moment, specifically because there's a car parked outside. Same action, different reason. The point is intimidation, not a clean car.

Also, when did this car become "suspicious"? It started out "strange", which is to say "unknown".

What do I do when an "unknown" car stops in front of my house? Nothing.

Absent some exigent circumstance, why should I do anything?

I now live in a small village (a few hundred people), I used to live in a larger village (couple thousand), before that, in the country with a few neighbors, before that, in a city of about 15,000. In all cases, an "unknown" car stopping elicits no response from me whatsoever.

SgtLumpy · July 14, 2013, 11:16 AM

Quote:

What do I do when an "unknown" car stops in front of my house? Nothing.

It's fine with me that you have that mental state.

Sgt Lumpy

**OldMarksman** · July 14, 2013, 11:19 AM

Cars stop on my street rather frequently. Sometimes that happens when I am sitting on the porch. If the occupants see me, I wave.

If I am indoors, I make no effort to let them know that I am aware of their presence.

Why would I?

SgtLumpy · July 14, 2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:

I make no effort to let them know that I am aware of their presence.

Why would I?

You wouldn't. Because you've made that decision.

But you didn't post to a gun forum about what you should do about a strange vehicle that repeatedly parks in front of your house and that you turn on the lights "to let them know" that you see them.

Everybody's neighborhood is different. Everybody's suspicion factor is different.

Sgt Lumpy

Brian Pfleuger · July 14, 2013, 11:48 AM

NOBODY posted on the forum about A car that "repeatedly" parks in front of their house.

Once again, the fact that this is a gun forum should not color the responses in any way. Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean every problem is a nail. It's a tactics question. Not all tactics require firearms. Hell, not all scenarios require "tactics".

I heard a cat fight last night. I posted that on a gun forum. Should I have shot the cats?

**OldMarksman** · July 14, 2013, 12:08 PM

Quote:

But you didn't post to a gun forum about what you should do about a strange vehicle that repeatedly parks in front of your house and that you turn on the lights "to let them know" that you see them.

Why would I post something like that on a gun forum? Why would anyone think that the subject is appropriate for a gun forum?

Why would I want them to "know that I see them"?

Quote:

Everybody's suspicion factor is different.

If every car that stopped on my street more than once made me suspicious, I would be very unhappy indeed. Several of my neighbors have large extended families in the area, and they often have visitors.

They arrive in cars.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 14, 2013, 12:19 PM

Here is an unknown car - you think it could be filled with bad people.

So, instead of just calling the law - you go out (in many variants) and expose yourself to them.

They ARE bad people and they shoot you or beat you up or stab you (of course, you can handle it).

Why is this continuing?

Or they are innocents and they call the cops on you. Man with a gun (for instance). Not a man engaging in open carry lawfully - but man with a gun - for a fun night time adventure.

Turn on the lights and call the cops, if you truly expect a threat and it isn't two kids necking.

My wife and I were returning from the park (our neighborhood hooks into a neat trail system). In the far reaches of the parking lot, we heard cries and moans. Thus, I took out my Surefire and Glock 19 and crawled to the car, jumped up and yelled - I'm from the Internet.

Or, we looked at each other, smiled and remembered our youth.

**OldMarksman** · July 14, 2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Thus, I took out my Surefire and Glock 19 and crawled to the car, jumped up and yelled - I'm from the Internet.

That made my week!

**Frank Ettin** · July 14, 2013, 01:08 PM

And I think we've exhausted all worthwhile lines of discussion, and a number of lines of discussion a good deal less worthwhile.

July 12, 2013, 07:29 PM	#76
HisDudeness Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 66	Strange car outside SgtLumpy makes my point even clearer. I live in AZ as well. Outsiders may find it strange to see the amount of guns openly carried and the willingness of strangers to approach and question others. That is life in the Grand Canyon State. You might live in a state where the populace tends to hide under a bed and call the po po. You might live in a state somewhere in between. There is such variety in America as to what may be appropriate.

July 14, 2013, 12:19 PM	#97
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Here is an unknown car - you think it could be filled with bad people. So, instead of just calling the law - you go out (in many variants) and expose yourself to them. They ARE bad people and they shoot you or beat you up or stab you (of course, you can handle it). Why is this continuing? Or they are innocents and they call the cops on you. Man with a gun (for instance). Not a man engaging in open carry lawfully - but man with a gun - for a fun night time adventure. Turn on the lights and call the cops, if you truly expect a threat and it isn't two kids necking. My wife and I were returning from the park (our neighborhood hooks into a neat trail system). In the far reaches of the parking lot, we heard cries and moans. Thus, I took out my Surefire and Glock 19 and crawled to the car, jumped up and yelled - I'm from the Internet. Or, we looked at each other, smiled and remembered our youth. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 14, 2013, 01:08 PM	#99
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	And I think we've exhausted all worthwhile lines of discussion, and a number of lines of discussion a good deal less worthwhile. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

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July 12, 2013, 08:17 PM	#77
Mezzanine Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 103	Has happened to me before, 2 different vehicles. They werent the usual cars i see on my road as the traffic is generally all residents of my street... Long story short i watched them one night and it was kids what i assumed to be high schoolers smoking pot. Both cars, pretty sure different kids...

July 13, 2013, 04:40 AM	#79
johnelmore Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2013 Posts: 456	There is a certain inconvenient unpopular truth which I will state now. If Officer Smith discharges their weapon into someone for whatever reason then they have the law, the unions, the chief and lots of lawyers behind them. Most officer involved shootings are ultimately ruled justified and written off by the public as a tragic situation even when the person shot didnt even have a weapon. On the other hand civilians do not get off so easily... This is why I subscribe to the philosophy of not escalating a situation. I encourage involving the police when possible. Its simply not worth it in regards to yourself and the community of owners. Any shooting by a civilian can be used to champion the cause of banning firearms like the Bidens of the world want to do. If Biden had his way no one would own a firearm. Running around displaying your firearm for situations which dont call for it helps the Bidens of the world champion their cause. Look what happened in California where it was legal to open carry an unloaded firearm. Some rights activists took to the street showing their arms and then they made new laws banning the practice. So its not a good idea to test the waters in that way because who wins? Joe Biden and his merry men.

July 13, 2013, 10:04 AM	#80
SgtLumpy Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Posts: 779	johnelmore - May I ask what state you're in? You seem to want to escalate the legal and common open carrying that my state does with some kind of "confronting people with a gun". Your last post takes it even to the extreme and compares LEOs vs non LEOs shooting people. I think you're kind of molehilling here sir. Nobody in the thread suggested shooting or even confronting anyone with a gun. You seem focused on the "Oh I see a gun" issue. That may be an issue in your area, or maybe it's just specific to your personal way of viewing things. It's not in my state, nor in my personal way of viewing things. Sgt Lumpy

July 13, 2013, 11:16 AM	#81
johnelmore Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2013 Posts: 456	"Confrontation" is a grey area. Approaching someone with a pistol open carrying might or might not count as "confrontation". If you are open carrying and approach someone to question them about their presence, I think that counts as confronting someone. You may not be pointing it at them, but it will take things to a different level. Earlier in the thread there were mentions of open carrying on your property as a way to demonstrate to strangers. This method might be effective in certain situations and places, but Im just saying that doing this in every place may not be the most responsible thing to do. I would not approach a stranger open carrying unless its something which had to be done and there were no other options. I can see a few situations where it might have to be done, but most situations should not be resolved in this manner.

July 13, 2013, 01:54 PM	#83
SgtLumpy Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Posts: 779	It's not a felony to open carry in my state. It's not a misdemeanor. It's not a crime. There's not even a permit needed. I never suggested confronting the car but even then, confronting a car or stranger while open carrying is not a crime in my state either. Some of you just aren't getting that it's not illegal, nor at all uncommon to see people in AZ walking around everywhere with an open carry pistol. It's not scary or against the law or given a second thought. People will walk up to others that are carrying and say things like "Hey, do you like that Serpa holster? I'm thinking of getting one for my Beretta", stuff like that. In contrast, by the sound of some of the posts, in some areas, or in some people's minds, it's scary to even go outside and look at a suspicious vehicle on your street. Either way is fine with me. Different areas have different customs. Sgt Lumpy

July 13, 2013, 03:28 PM	#84
johnelmore Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2013 Posts: 456	Parts of Arizona I could articulate why it might be a good idea to open carry. There is a good deal of drugs run over the border and so a stranger in a border town might not be a welcome site at times. There are also illegal immigrants crossing who might be desperate for food and shelter. That is a situation where it might be called for to display a firearm openly. You live in a town by the border and see a stranger or car you know doesnt belong so you open carry around the property to reinforce the notion this isnt the place for their intended business.

July 14, 2013, 10:20 AM	#87
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The problem is not open carry. The problem is the mental aspect... WHY are you "open carrying", at THAT moment? The responses in this thread seem to indicate that they would specifically open carry, even in places where it wouldn't be legal off your own property, specifically as a "show of force". This is a dangerous attitude. If you happen to open carry and you happen to be washing your car or you're open carrying and it's perfectly normal to go over and inquire with the occupants of the car, super. Have at it. Doing it to INTENTIONALLY make them aware that you have a gun, to intentionally show them the gun, is a different mental state. The occupants of the car might never know the difference but it IS different.

July 14, 2013, 10:50 AM	#88
SgtLumpy Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Posts: 779	Brian, I think your "mental state" argument is odd. My mental state, my projected intention ANY time I'm carrying open or conceiled, or even any time I'm not carrying, is that "I'm aware of you and the rest of my surroundings and not afraid to let you know it". I can't imagine anyone open carrying but having the mental attitude "I'm not really ready to use this" "I'm not really paying attention to what's going on around me'. The idea that the suspicious people might get offended or scared, and then leave, is exactly the desired action, whether it involves a gun or just turning on the porch light. Burglar, Fuller brush man, kids smoking pot or door to door religious fanatic, if they're parked where I don't feel comfortable, I want them to leave. I don't care a bit if I've hurt their feelings because of my mental attitude. And for perhaps the dozenth time, that may be different than the way you in NY look at suspicious or undesirable people. Sgt Lumpy

July 14, 2013, 11:13 AM	#91
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	You might wash your car armed but you weren't planning to wash your car, at that moment. You're doing it, at that moment, specifically because there's a car parked outside. Same action, different reason. The point is intimidation, not a clean car. Also, when did this car become "suspicious"? It started out "strange", which is to say "unknown". What do I do when an "unknown" car stops in front of my house? Nothing. Absent some exigent circumstance, why should I do anything? I now live in a small village (a few hundred people), I used to live in a larger village (couple thousand), before that, in the country with a few neighbors, before that, in a city of about 15,000. In all cases, an "unknown" car stopping elicits no response from me whatsoever.

July 14, 2013, 11:19 AM	#93
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Cars stop on my street rather frequently. Sometimes that happens when I am sitting on the porch. If the occupants see me, I wave. If I am indoors, I make no effort to let them know that I am aware of their presence. Why would I?

July 14, 2013, 11:48 AM	#95
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	NOBODY posted on the forum about A car that "repeatedly" parks in front of their house. Once again, the fact that this is a gun forum should not color the responses in any way. Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean every problem is a nail. It's a tactics question. Not all tactics require firearms. Hell, not all scenarios require "tactics". I heard a cat fight last night. I posted that on a gun forum. Should I have shot the cats?