. 38 Colt?

[ZVP]

Is the .38 Colt a outside dimensional bullet (Like the .38 S&W)?
Can you fire it in a regular .38 Special chamber?
The reason I ask is because I want to try the .38 Colt in my Cobra Derringer.
I am looking for a low recoil load for the derringer. I don't handload and when I find someone to load light loads for the Derringer, it usually costs more than buying regular reloads since it takes extra work measuring the light powder loads out.
ZVP

[Mike Irwin]

Early Colt s used a heeled bulllet but in the 1890s most companies started loading bullets with hollow bases that would work passably well in the old guns. Colt changed chamber dimensions around the same time.

.38 s&w was always loaded with a modern style bullet not a heeled one.

[Shotgun693]

All the modern .38 Colt I've seen uses an inside seated bullet, cast very soft with a hollow base to fill the lands. As far as I know all currently made .38 Colts are just shortened ,38 Specials.

[Aguila Blanca]

This may help: http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

[buckhorn]

The old .38 S+W isn't the same as the .38 Colt. They were called .38/200 in some cases and had a diameter closer to .38 than the .38 colt. The .38 colt was about .36-.357. Latter, when S+W went to the .38-44 and .38 special, they also went to a .357 bullet. A S+W .38 will not chamber in most .38 special revolvers.

[carguychris]

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that there are three ".38 Colt" cartridges.

.38 Short Colt is an older cartridge that has historically been loaded both with heeled outside-lubricated bullets and smaller-caliber inside-lubricated bullets. AFAIK all recent-production commercial ammo uses inside-lubricated bullets in the same caliber as .38Spl, but you might encounter a few aging boxes of outside-lubricated cartridges at a gun show. IIRC it was produced in this form as recently as ~40 years ago; IOW recently enough that it's not necessarily a rare antiquity yet!

.38 Long Colt is a more powerful cartridge that, in its modern form, is almost always loaded with an inside-lubricated bullet in the same caliber as .38Spl. This cartridge is far more commonplace and generally less expensive than .38SC. If you're looking for a low-recoil alternative to .38Spl, IMHO .38LC "Cowboy" loads are your best bet.

.38 Colt New Police is the same thing as .38S&W and/or .38/200 for all practical purposes. The name is the result of a long-ago Colt policy to not put their arch rival's name on their guns. As other posters have correctly pointed out, this is a slightly larger-caliber cartridge that will NOT chamber or function in most .38Spl, .38SC, or .38LC firearms, and it was NEVER commonly loaded with an outside-lubricated bullet.

[EDIT] .38S&W / .38 Colt New Police has the colloquial nickname of .38 S&W "Short", a name that was never used by either Colt or S&W in any official capacity, but has long been used by store clerks and more recently on the labels of some commercial .38S&W "Cowboy" ammunition to prevent confusion with .38 S&W SPECIAL CTG., the name rollmarked on older S&W .38Spl revolver barrels. Do NOT confuse .38 Short Colt with so-called ".38 S&W Short"- it's NOT the same thing!

[BlueTrain]

I have a old box of .38 S&W cartridges that I inherited from my late father-in-law. Once after a similiar thread was posted here, I open the box to examine the cartridges and discovered two .38 long cartridges. Note that the cartridges are marked simply .38 LONG" instead of .38 Long Colt. They are also marked "W.R.A.Co." The .38 S&W cartridges (.38 S&W Smokless Central Fire Cartridges) are so marked (.38 S&W) with "REM-UMC." There are also two cartridges made by "W.C.CO." It is difficult to see that the .38 S&W cartridges have a larger diameter. The .38 Long cartridges are about 1/4-inch or about 6mm longer than the .38 S&W. I don't have a .38 special cartridge handy to compare. In olden days, I've read boasts about some revolver being able to handle the .38 short, the .38 long, the .38 special and the .337 magnum, so apparently there were lots of .38 short and long cartridges available. All of these have round nose lead bullets. I don't know what the base of the bullets are like.

I suspect the existence of the .38 short Colt and the .38 long Colt, as well as the .41 long Colt lead to the habit of calling the .45 Colt the .45 long Colt, but let's not get into that.

All of these cartridges were still listed in the 1962 Gun Digest and cartridges were also described as either "greased" or "inside lubricated." The .32 Short Colt, the .38 Short Colt and the .41 Long Colt were all described as greased. The .38 S&W, the .32 S&W, the .32 S&W Long, the .32 Colt New Police, the .38 Long Colt and .38 Colt New Police as well as the .38 Special were all inside lubricated. All cartridges for automatics were "full patch."

[buckhorn]

In addition to revolvers, I've also collected old ammo of various calibers. I tried to chamber a S+W .38 in my .38 special, no go. A .38 marked .38 short, dropped right in. And, of course a .38 long dropped right in. Interestingly, the S+W did go into one chamber of my .38 Special. I had to thumb it in, but it went. I had to push it out from the front. .38 S+W are not safe to fire in .38 special chambers!!! I must have one over-sized chamber, and it's the one that is easiest to extract. actually, it usually just drops the .38 special cartridge right out after firing, some times the rest need a push. Don't ever try firing a .38 S+W in a .38 special or long revolver.

[James K]

There is some overlap in specs between .38 S&W and .38 Special, so that .38 S&W will fit into some .38 Special chambers. No great problem in firing it, either. While the .38 S&W bullet is nominally slightly larger than the .357" .38 Special, many modern .38 S&W bullets are in fact that diameter. Even so, the pressure of the .38 S&W is so low that firing it in a modern .38 Special revolver will not cause a problem.

Jim

[Webleymkv]

If all you're wanting is a low-recoil loading for your .38 Special, both Fiocchi and S&B make .38 Spl 148gr HBWC loadings with ballistics very similar to those of .38 Long Colt that are substantially cheaper.

[Mike Irwin]

Most of the old heeled bullet cartridves started out that way because they were first used in cartridge conversion revolvers. The cylinders were bored through and the heeled bullets fit the cylinder and narrel dimensions.

[BlueTrain]

Were there cartridges that were manufactured differently later? Colt army revolvers in .38 Long were bored through, I believe, perhaps others, too (which meant they would take a .357). Did the .38 Long start out as "greased" and end up being inside lubricated?

[buckhorn]

.38 are interesting in their evolution. The Colt .38 short started out as a heeled bullet with a diameter of .375, close to A S+W .38. The .38 long started out as a .357 , inside lubed bullet. So the .38 long is the direct ancestor of the .38 special and then the .357 magnum. all of which are .357 diameter bullets. The .38 short and the .38 S+W are .375 diameter bullets, which is also the diameter of the .36 black-powder ball. Alot of this had to due with S+W and Colt not wanting to name their guns caliber after a competitors gun, as someone has mentioned. Plus, the conversion cylinders popular at that time required a .375 bullets. Then you start talking about the .38 rimfire, and you could go on forever.

[JohnMoses]

+1 WeblymkV

[buckhorn]

I believe the Webley MK V was either a .455 or .38-200 [Actually a S+W .38] I think it was a .455 Webley round

[Mike Irwin]

I am pretty certain that the. 38 long started out life as a heeled outside lubricated cartridge and did not change until the US gov. adopted it as the official cartridge around 1892.

[carguychris]

I am pretty certain that the. 38 long started out life as a heeled outside lubricated cartridge and did not change until the US gov. adopted it as the official cartridge around 1892.

That's my recollection as well; I also seem to remember that the Army promptly switched to an inside-lubricated load and most subsequent commercial offerings followed suit. AFAIK this is the reason why almost all .38LC has been inside-lubricated for many decades, whereas .38SC has been produced in heeled outside-lubricated form at least as recently as the early 1970s.

[ZVP]

Ok so the .38 Colt Long is able to chamber in a .38 Special chamber.
It is a lower recoil variation which is safe to shoot in .38 Special Chambers.
If I wanted, then I could shoot .38 Long Colts in my Cobra Derringer?
I am just looking for a lower recoil alternative. The post about the .38 Long Colt 148gr load being a low recoil alternative is interesting!
The Cobra is such a "Kicker" with regular .38 Special ammo that I am just looking for alternatives.
Thanks for all the explainations and answers!
ZVP

[BlueTrain]

I think you mean the 148-grain mid-range wadcutter for the .38 special.

On the subject of the .38 S&W, it was the British service round for "pistols, revolver" from the 1930s to the 1960s, although other cartridges were also used, including .45 ACP. It started out as a 200-grain round nose lead bullet and was referred to as .38-200. They later used a lighter, full metal jacket bullet.

S&W produced many such revolvers for the British, all M&P models. Apparently the US Army wound up with some, for they were listed in the army field manual for small arms. The caliber was given as ".38 regular."

The .38 special was also produced with a 200-grain load but I've never seen any.

[Mike Irwin]

The British adopted the. 380-200 round in the 1920s. The Makr I cartridge used a 200 grain lead bullet. In The 1930s as war approached they began to worry about that bullet and the Hague accords so they adopted a 170 grain jacketed bullet.

Due to ammo shortages many of the troops who went to France with the BEF at the start of WWII were armed with Mark I ammo. After Dunkirk the Brits bought millions of rounds of US made 200 grain lead bullet ammo as a stopgap measure. Apparently some was issued to troops going to Africa.

[buckhorn]

zvp- If you're looking for a low-level, mild-recoil .38, I'd recommend .38 wad-cutter reloads. I bought several boxes from Buffalo Arms for $13 for a box of 50. On the other hand, I don't believe you could get .38 longs for anywhere close to that price. The ones I got{and I believe they still have them at $14 a box} go out of the gun at 760 fps. Quite comfortable to shoot and accurate. You could use .38 longs and get the same effect, But they are really expensive, as it is not a popular round. By the way, the .38 reloads are made by Ultra-Max, and I've never had a FTF with them.

[Jim Watson]

Old Colt advertisement for New Service revolver:

".38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Colt Special, .38 S&W Special full and midrange loads, .38 Colt Special High Speed, .38 S&W Special High Speed and .38-44 S&W Special cartridges in .38 Special model."

These days you mostly see forty-eleven different .38 Specials from Cheapmart Econoball to dollar+ a pop Zombie slayers.

For low recoil, I would go with midrange wadcutters or the rather anemic 130 gr FMJ discount house stuff.

Magtech makes a thing they call ".38 Special Short" that is about the length of a .38 S&W but the case and bullet diameter of .38 Special without the complications of .38 Short or Long Colt.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/10979

[44 AMP]

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that there are three ".38 Colt" cartridges

actually, it seems there were more than that, at least by the names they were marketed under.

The .38 Long Colt (intro 1875) fired a 150gr bullet at 770fps, and was the offical US Army revolver cartridge from 1892 to 1911.

.38 Short Colt; identical to Long Colt except for case length (shorter @ .762 vs 1.03") and used a 130 gr outside lubricated bullet at 770fps.

.38 Colt Special; same as the .38 S&W Special (our common .38 Spl today) except it used a flat point bullet.

.38 Colt New Police; dimensionally the same as the .38 S&W (NOT the .38 SPL), and the .38/200 British cartridge. This case is shorter, and fatter than the .38 Spl, and uses a slightly larger diameter bullet as well. It was loaded with a 145gr or 200gr bullet.

The first three will chamber and fire in a .38 Special, although the rims are slightly undersize (.433 vs .440"). The last one should not chamber in a .38 Spl, but will in some guns that have sloppy chambers. .38 SPL base dia is .379, while .38 S&W (.38 Colt New Police) is .386".