Four males jump your fence - Page 3

scoutleader · February 5, 2009, 08:12 AM

Orlando,
They did try to get back into the yard after I ran them out. Since they did not stop after a verbal command to stay out, and the property is posted, I did what I thought I had to do. I was out numbered and did not want to fight them all at one time in my backyard. I stop them the only way I could think of at the time. I am very glad that I did not have to take someones life or lose my own. I have found out that one of the males(18 yrs old) was caught breaking into houses. I know it was him because of the jacket he was wearing.

Sevens · February 5, 2009, 08:56 AM

In reading through the entire thread, and then re-reading the first post, it's not all that obvious until the OP points it out for certain that the four guys are indeed coming back in to the yard.

I would think that part of the situation warrants your actions, and I would imagine that most folks who might have thought it wasn't appropriate weren't entirely sure that these guys were coming back over your fence and in to your yard.

IMO (that's all it is), if these guys jumped your fence and entered your yard -- then left -- then attempted to return when you arrived on the scene, YES, you are completely justified in going offensive. And I think it's a very good choice to whack 'em with something other than gunfire.

woad_yurt · February 5, 2009, 09:26 AM

A lawyer once told me that, in TN, deadly force may be used if "a reasonable person" perceives another person has an "intent to do harm" to one. If a homeowner wakes up to find a stranger in their dwelling, TN assumes that the person is there to do harm just because they're there.

Now, legally, kids hopping a fence may or may not be up to some teenage stupidity and may or may not be there to do harm. But, legally speaking, what reason would anyone have to return after the lawful resident has chased them off immediately previous? Any reasonable person would be very, very foolhardy not to assume that they were coming back to do harm.

I'm no attorney so please don't use me as a justification for future actions. Check for yourself. If there are any TN criminal attorneys out there who know otherwise, please speak up. If I am mistaken, I really would like to know.

To Mrs. Scoutleader: Brava, girlfriend!

**OldMarksman** · February 5, 2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

A lawyer once told me that, in TN, deadly force may be used if "a reasonable person" perceives another person has an "intent to do harm" to one.

Careful. You may have forgotten some key parts of what he or she actually told you.

Here's what the law actually says:

Quote:

A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where such person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if: (A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury; (B) The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and (C) The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

Emphasis added.

"Intent" isn't sufficient, the "harm" must be very severe indeed, and there must be a supportable basis for what the person "perceives.".

Quote:

If a homeowner wakes up to find a stranger in their dwelling, TN assumes that the person is there to do harm just because they're there.

Here's the relevant wording:

Quote:

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury within a residence, dwelling or vehicle is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury to self, family, a member of the household or a person visiting as an invited guest when that force is used against another person, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence, dwelling or vehicle, and the person using defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

Do not take this as legal advice--but I have copied the law.

noyes · February 5, 2009, 11:59 AM

Fence & house patrol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI

jesus5150 · February 6, 2009, 11:15 PM

There ya go... Get one of those dogs. Then you just gotta learn German lol. I'll give you a hand;

"Fluffy, Please go do a perimiter check and notify me of anything out of the ordinary."

or

"Fluffy, gehen Sie bitte eine perimiter überprüfen und Benachrichtigen Sie mich über alles aus der gewöhnlichen"

noyes · February 7, 2009, 12:20 AM

Platz

TEDDY · February 7, 2009, 11:17 AM

I have been lead to believe that in SC you dont go on any property that you dont own.it is a serious violation.
posters on here probably give there interpitation based on there local feelings.
and some of there feelings are why we have such a high crime rate.My feeling in this state is if he's trespassing he is not trespassing he is there to comitt a crime.we have been so brainwashed that we have become scared to even protect our own property.I dont have trespassers,my sign says"danger no trespassing private property."now adays people shoot you first and then rob you.you must have the mind set to see the difference and be prepared to act.if you dont you WILL go down.
The bible does not say you cant kill it says you cant murder.

jfruser · February 9, 2009, 03:55 PM

Good for the OP. Just goes to show that software can utilize most any hardware to turn a situation around.

Also, with a child involved, you are not exactly mobile and able to retreat in the face of aggression, which is what the 4 punks displayed when they decided to come back over the fence after being told not to.

Makes me glad I have the dog I do.

She patrols the fence line and lets loose with a very intimidating bark when she perceives someone on the other side.

mav88 · February 15, 2009, 10:23 PM

anyone who jumps my fence i will consider a threat. I think what you done is the right thing..calling and getting your firearm to be prepared. Luckily it didnt turn out to be worse then what it was.

BoulderTroll · February 15, 2009, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Fence & house patrol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI

Bah, schutzhund and GSD's are for sissies...get yourself a Mal! Here are some real dogs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc5P8n3LRak

I've got two Belgian Malinois in my yard, one a 2 1/2 year old female dope dog and the other a 5 year old male who has worked for two departments and had 6 good bites on bad guys (before I got him). I'd have loved for those 4 guys to have come into my yard. I even have the sign up in my window, "Belgian Malinois: I make it to the fence in 2.8 seconds, can you?"

I'm sorry for those here who feel that these are just kids fooling around. 12 or 13...sure, maybe. The OP said they were 18 to 20. I'm sorry but if four 18 to 20-years-olds came BACK into my yard they'd deserve just about anything they had coming to them. Good job to the OP! And trespassing (misdemeanor in my state) definitely equals a detention. Hold them at gunpoint until a cop gets there? Sure. If I ever got called to a scene where a homeowner held 4 twenty year olds at gunpoint for breaking into their yard I'd give the homeowner a high five.

allenomics · February 15, 2009, 11:19 PM

I just don't know how you must have felt at the moment? Doesn't really sound like they were attempting a break in or home invasion? Kids being kids?

txbirddog · February 16, 2009, 12:25 AM

Quote:

I just don't know how you must have felt at the moment? Doesn't really sound like they were attempting a break in or home invasion? Kids being kids?

Sorry ladies and gentlemen, but 18 to 20 year olds ARE NOT KIDS!! Whatever happened to having respect for other's property? I raised my kids to do so and if they need to be somewhere, that is what sidewalks are for. IOW, keep your *** out of my yard.

Are you the kind of parents and let your kids run amuck and then blame someone else or society, when they get into trouble?? Would you be placing blame on the homeowner or trying to sue them when the ROTT tried to eat your "kid for just being a kid" and crossing into someone private property? I think they got off easy and it could have been worse!! Teach your kids right and wrong!!

mav88 · February 16, 2009, 01:07 PM

Dogs aren't always good. I use to have one protecting mybackyard too...he would always bark when he saw street peope hanging in a ditch beside my house drinking alcohol. I believed they poisoned him and gave him something he wasn't suppose to eat...I was so pisssed and angry I tried Bring him to the vet. Therefore I no longer own one. they can be easily fooled with food for evil bastards who haven such an intent to do something like that.

bamafan4life · February 16, 2009, 01:26 PM

if someone hoped my fence id just walked out with my 12 gauge pump and done like clint eastwood did in grand torino snarl ''Get off my lawn!"

~ARMYSoldieR~ · February 16, 2009, 01:54 PM

+1 BAM

Omaha-BeenGlockin · February 16, 2009, 02:18 PM

Sounds like they complied with your "request" for them to leave.

Well done.

BoulderTroll · February 16, 2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Dogs aren't always good. I use to have one protecting mybackyard too...he would always bark when he saw street peope hanging in a ditch beside my house drinking alcohol. I believed they poisoned him and gave him something he wasn't suppose to eat...I was so pisssed and angry I tried Bring him to the vet. Therefore I no longer own one. they can be easily fooled with food for evil bastards who haven such an intent to do something like that.

Sorry that happened to your pup, Mav. But not all dogs are the same. My dogs won't eat food from anyone but me or my close family/ friends. I've had people try to give them food (and my female is very food motivated), they just won't take it. Malinois as a breed are very aloof and have to be socialized intensively as puppies to even be semi-normal around starngers. In my experience with them most Mal's won't take food from a stranger.

BillCA · February 16, 2009, 04:24 PM

What the hell ever happened to common courtesy?

When we were kids, we were pretty well educated by age 6 or so that we did not go, uninvited, into other people's fenced yards or open garages. Nor did you open the doors of cars parked in their driveways or on the street. If it's not yours, you have no right to mess with it.

The one time I tried to steal (at age 7) I got caught. Bad enough apologizing to the store owner, worse listening to "Just wait until your father gets home"... terrifying to listen to the "play" the parents put on with dad snapping his belt and saying "I'll blister the h*** outta his backside!" (while mom "calmed" him down). I feared their punishment much more than being in jail.

Now... when we were ages 8-11, half a dozen of us would "walk the fence" to get to each other's houses instead of going the long way around the block. The wooden fences had a 2x4 "topper" that was easy to navigate for small kids (unless they were loose!). Every once in a while some property owner would yell at us and we'd high-tail it outta there. But that's a different thing than hopping fences and actually cutting through someone's yard.

In the 70's we were adopted by a friend's dog and put up warning signs on our gates. Mostly it was for the power company meter-readers and similar folks who might have a legitimate reason to enter the property.

And still had stupid people ignore the signs!

From the OP's post, I understood from the first reading that the kids left, then started to come back. If my 9 y/o daughter was playing in the yard and they decided to come back, using the mallet would certainly be an option.

If the offenders had been pre-teens, I would have said his actions were a bit harsh. But for teenagers who should know better, life is harsh and sometimes so is the lesson for doing something stupid, illegal or just having bad judgement. For some people, that's the ONLY way they learn.

But if I run you off the property, yelling to stay out of my yard and you decide to come back, I am going to interpret that as a hostile action. Normal people wanting to "explain" their actions can do so through the fence. There's no reason to illegally return to the yard unless you are intending harm or willfully tresspassing.

What really irks me the most is when some teenage or older person is caught stealing or entering a home and when they get hurt, their parents and/or others claim that "they weren't hurting nobody!" or "he would never do something like that! He was a good boy!" Well apparently these idiots think that being a criminal caught in the act doesn't constitute harm or being bad.

This is the same stupid reaction we had last year when some 19 y/o thug was spotted prowling around the home of a 16 y/o girl and she called the PD. They arrived and found him inside a screened patio area and he drew a weapon on police and was shot four times. The news showed the mother wailing that her boy was "a good son and never in no trouble". Even though he had 2 stolen handguns on him, a knife and a 6" screwdriver. Never mind the prior youth charges of assault or possession of drugs ... no, he was "never in no trouble". :barf:

ElectricHellfire · February 16, 2009, 05:00 PM

I think the climber should be glad he got a mallet to the hand rather than a face full O'20 gauge. The moron should come and thank you.

**OldMarksman** · February 16, 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

I think the climber should be glad he got a mallet to the hand rather than a face full O'20 gauge.

And so should the homeowner and his family.

Daugherty16 · February 20, 2009, 01:32 PM

All in all, it worled out fine - so far. Heed the warning about reprisals, but even that i think unlikely since they know how you respond to threats.

Anyway, here in CT and in many states, i think, the law distinguishes between simple trespass and criminal trespass. Simple trespass is just that - knowingly entering another's property but without other criminal intent. Maybe your yard wasn't posted (except for the fences, duh) but after you chased them off the first time, no question that fair warning had been given. ANY reasonable person could responsibly assume that by coming back, these youths were engaging in criminal trespass -which means trespass with intent to commit a crime. Take your pick - assault, rape, robbery, burglary, property damage - some of which can be met with deadly force, and some of which can't. A mallet to the fingers doesn't constitute deadly force, and it seems to have been sufficient force.

And just in case, your wife had the 20g for backup if it escalated into a deadly threat to life or limb. I'd say it worked out just fine, and you've got one heck of a wife.

scoutleader · February 20, 2009, 10:11 PM

Well I have found out that one of the kids was 18, he was arrest about week after his run in with my mallet. So I would think that they all are in the upper teen age. I know it was one of the kids( they are kids to me at the 41) since I got a good look at his coat as he when over the fence the first time. I think we may have them ran out of the area, I think they were hanging out at a house that was selling drugs. They did not last with our neighborhood watch program. The nice thing about this is it has made the wife become more comfortable with the guns in the house. She is a yellow dog Democrat, and hates guns, but she is coming around.

February 5, 2009, 08:56 AM	#52
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,755	In reading through the entire thread, and then re-reading the first post, it's not all that obvious until the OP points it out for certain that the four guys are indeed coming back in to the yard. I would think that part of the situation warrants your actions, and I would imagine that most folks who might have thought it wasn't appropriate weren't entirely sure that these guys were coming back over your fence and in to your yard. IMO (that's all it is), if these guys jumped your fence and entered your yard -- then left -- then attempted to return when you arrived on the scene, YES, you are completely justified in going offensive. And I think it's a very good choice to whack 'em with something other than gunfire. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 5, 2009, 09:26 AM	#53
woad_yurt Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,206	A lawyer once told me that, in TN, deadly force may be used if "a reasonable person" perceives another person has an "intent to do harm" to one. If a homeowner wakes up to find a stranger in their dwelling, TN assumes that the person is there to do harm just because they're there. Now, legally, kids hopping a fence may or may not be up to some teenage stupidity and may or may not be there to do harm. But, legally speaking, what reason would anyone have to return after the lawful resident has chased them off immediately previous? Any reasonable person would be very, very foolhardy not to assume that they were coming back to do harm. I'm no attorney so please don't use me as a justification for future actions. Check for yourself. If there are any TN criminal attorneys out there who know otherwise, please speak up. If I am mistaken, I really would like to know. To Mrs. Scoutleader: Brava, girlfriend! __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

February 5, 2009, 11:59 AM	#55
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	Fence & house patrol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzn_ylrKJbI Last edited by noyes; February 5, 2009 at 12:12 PM.

February 7, 2009, 11:17 AM	#58
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	trespass I have been lead to believe that in SC you dont go on any property that you dont own.it is a serious violation. posters on here probably give there interpitation based on there local feelings. and some of there feelings are why we have such a high crime rate.My feeling in this state is if he's trespassing he is not trespassing he is there to comitt a crime.we have been so brainwashed that we have become scared to even protect our own property.I dont have trespassers,my sign says"danger no trespassing private property."now adays people shoot you first and then rob you.you must have the mind set to see the difference and be prepared to act.if you dont you WILL go down. The bible does not say you cant kill it says you cant murder.

February 9, 2009, 03:55 PM	#59
jfruser Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 350	Good for the OP. Just goes to show that software can utilize most any hardware to turn a situation around. Also, with a child involved, you are not exactly mobile and able to retreat in the face of aggression, which is what the 4 punks displayed when they decided to come back over the fence after being told not to. Makes me glad I have the dog I do. She patrols the fence line and lets loose with a very intimidating bark when she perceives someone on the other side. __________________ Regards, jfruser "Books and bullets have their own destinies."----Bob Ross

February 5, 2009, 08:12 AM	#51
scoutleader Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2007 Location: WestTN Posts: 121	Orlando, They did try to get back into the yard after I ran them out. Since they did not stop after a verbal command to stay out, and the property is posted, I did what I thought I had to do. I was out numbered and did not want to fight them all at one time in my backyard. I stop them the only way I could think of at the time. I am very glad that I did not have to take someones life or lose my own. I have found out that one of the males(18 yrs old) was caught breaking into houses. I know it was him because of the jacket he was wearing.

February 6, 2009, 11:15 PM	#56
jesus5150 Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Bismark Posts: 332	There ya go... Get one of those dogs. Then you just gotta learn German lol. I'll give you a hand; "Fluffy, Please go do a perimiter check and notify me of anything out of the ordinary." or "Fluffy, gehen Sie bitte eine perimiter überprüfen und Benachrichtigen Sie mich über alles aus der gewöhnlichen"

February 7, 2009, 12:20 AM	#57
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	Platz

February 15, 2009, 10:23 PM	#60
mav88 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 120	anyone who jumps my fence i will consider a threat. I think what you done is the right thing..calling and getting your firearm to be prepared. Luckily it didnt turn out to be worse then what it was.

February 15, 2009, 11:19 PM	#62
allenomics Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Posts: 1,536	I just don't know how you must have felt at the moment? Doesn't really sound like they were attempting a break in or home invasion? Kids being kids? __________________ NRA Benefactor Life Member Knowledge is not power. Applied knowledge is power!

February 16, 2009, 01:07 PM	#64
mav88 Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2008 Posts: 120	Dogs aren't always good. I use to have one protecting mybackyard too...he would always bark when he saw street peope hanging in a ditch beside my house drinking alcohol. I believed they poisoned him and gave him something he wasn't suppose to eat...I was so pisssed and angry I tried Bring him to the vet. Therefore I no longer own one. they can be easily fooled with food for evil bastards who haven such an intent to do something like that.

February 16, 2009, 01:26 PM	#65
bamafan4life Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2009 Posts: 190	id just whent clint eastwood on him if someone hoped my fence id just walked out with my 12 gauge pump and done like clint eastwood did in grand torino snarl ''Get off my lawn!"

February 16, 2009, 01:54 PM	#66
~ARMYSoldieR~ Member Join Date: June 30, 2008 Location: bumf***, ID Posts: 23	+1 BAM __________________ Army Strong HOOAH Gun control means using both hands and hitting a running coyote at 300 yards and having him fold up like a napkin

February 16, 2009, 02:18 PM	#67
Omaha-BeenGlockin Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,183	Sounds like they complied with your "request" for them to leave. Well done. __________________ I take the leech that's bleeding me Can't stop to save my soul I take the leash that's leading me -------Metallica

February 16, 2009, 04:24 PM	#69
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	What the hell ever happened to common courtesy? When we were kids, we were pretty well educated by age 6 or so that we did not go, uninvited, into other people's fenced yards or open garages. Nor did you open the doors of cars parked in their driveways or on the street. If it's not yours, you have no right to mess with it. The one time I tried to steal (at age 7) I got caught. Bad enough apologizing to the store owner, worse listening to "Just wait until your father gets home"... terrifying to listen to the "play" the parents put on with dad snapping his belt and saying "I'll blister the h*** outta his backside!" (while mom "calmed" him down). I feared their punishment much more than being in jail. Now... when we were ages 8-11, half a dozen of us would "walk the fence" to get to each other's houses instead of going the long way around the block. The wooden fences had a 2x4 "topper" that was easy to navigate for small kids (unless they were loose!). Every once in a while some property owner would yell at us and we'd high-tail it outta there. But that's a different thing than hopping fences and actually cutting through someone's yard. In the 70's we were adopted by a friend's dog and put up warning signs on our gates. Mostly it was for the power company meter-readers and similar folks who might have a legitimate reason to enter the property. And still had stupid people ignore the signs! From the OP's post, I understood from the first reading that the kids left, then started to come back. If my 9 y/o daughter was playing in the yard and they decided to come back, using the mallet would certainly be an option. If the offenders had been pre-teens, I would have said his actions were a bit harsh. But for teenagers who should know better, life is harsh and sometimes so is the lesson for doing something stupid, illegal or just having bad judgement. For some people, that's the ONLY way they learn. But if I run you off the property, yelling to stay out of my yard and you decide to come back, I am going to interpret that as a hostile action. Normal people wanting to "explain" their actions can do so through the fence. There's no reason to illegally return to the yard unless you are intending harm or willfully tresspassing. What really irks me the most is when some teenage or older person is caught stealing or entering a home and when they get hurt, their parents and/or others claim that "they weren't hurting nobody!" or "he would never do something like that! He was a good boy!" Well apparently these idiots think that being a criminal caught in the act doesn't constitute harm or being bad. This is the same stupid reaction we had last year when some 19 y/o thug was spotted prowling around the home of a 16 y/o girl and she called the PD. They arrived and found him inside a screened patio area and he drew a weapon on police and was shot four times. The news showed the mother wailing that her boy was "a good son and never in no trouble". Even though he had 2 stolen handguns on him, a knife and a 6" screwdriver. Never mind the prior youth charges of assault or possession of drugs ... no, he was "never in no trouble". :barf: __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

February 16, 2009, 05:00 PM	#70
ElectricHellfire Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,271	I think the climber should be glad he got a mallet to the hand rather than a face full O'20 gauge. The moron should come and thank you. __________________ *Texas, the only State to Have Ever Kicked Another Country's Butt*

February 20, 2009, 01:32 PM	#72
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	Measured Response All in all, it worled out fine - so far. Heed the warning about reprisals, but even that i think unlikely since they know how you respond to threats. Anyway, here in CT and in many states, i think, the law distinguishes between simple trespass and criminal trespass. Simple trespass is just that - knowingly entering another's property but without other criminal intent. Maybe your yard wasn't posted (except for the fences, duh) but after you chased them off the first time, no question that fair warning had been given. ANY reasonable person could responsibly assume that by coming back, these youths were engaging in criminal trespass -which means trespass with intent to commit a crime. Take your pick - assault, rape, robbery, burglary, property damage - some of which can be met with deadly force, and some of which can't. A mallet to the fingers doesn't constitute deadly force, and it seems to have been sufficient force. And just in case, your wife had the 20g for backup if it escalated into a deadly threat to life or limb. I'd say it worked out just fine, and you've got one heck of a wife. __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

February 20, 2009, 10:11 PM	#73
scoutleader Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2007 Location: WestTN Posts: 121	Well I have found out that one of the kids was 18, he was arrest about week after his run in with my mallet. So I would think that they all are in the upper teen age. I know it was one of the kids( they are kids to me at the 41) since I got a good look at his coat as he when over the fence the first time. I think we may have them ran out of the area, I think they were hanging out at a house that was selling drugs. They did not last with our neighborhood watch program. The nice thing about this is it has made the wife become more comfortable with the guns in the house. She is a yellow dog Democrat, and hates guns, but she is coming around.

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