A little talk about triggers

[MarkCO]

In another thread I responded to a post with...

A case of ammo and practice will be a better benefit. Triggers mask poor fundamentals, they do not improve inherent accuracy.

My reply was not specific enough. I should have said that if changing to a "lighter" trigger improved a shooters group size, they most likely have a issue with fundamentals. In that case, they would be better served with a case of ammo and some practice on fundamentals rather than a gear upgrade.

Going to very light triggers will force a shooter to have better fundamentals in one area, that of applying too much pressure to a part of the firearm.
When you apply too much pressure to a firearm, specifically not in line with the bore, you are disturbing the sighting, or POA thus introducing uncontrolled variables and disturbing accuracy.

We often see people say things like...my gun shoots better than I can, as well. I agree that for most casual shooters, and a good number of competition shooters, that is a true statement. But it is not a universal statement.

Rifles, pistols and shotguns all have different fundamentals, but the universal one is true...properly "point" the firearm at the target and press the trigger whiteout messing up that point. I use point, because "align the sights" is not universal.

With rifles, we can argue about loaded or unloaded forces on the firearm and the nuances between irons and optics, but the fundamentals of pressing the trigger without putting off axis forces into the rifle before during and after ignition is universal to getting all of the inherent accuracy out of a rifle. Free recoil all the way through a loaded bipod even to a lead sled will prove this to you if you don't believe it. Proper fit helps a good deal as well. But if one has proper fundamentals, whether prone, off-hand, bench or alternative positions, and you repeat it, you will shoot very close to the best inherent groups of a rifle's capability.

Many years ago, I set up a stage with 2 AR15s and small targets at 100 yards. One AR had a 2 pound AR-Gold trigger in it, the other an 8 pound Mil-Spec trigger, but all else was the same. If you guessed that folks preferred the AR with the better trigger, you would be right. The "rationalizations" were very interesting in that some blamed their misses on the trigger, some thought the barrels were different and some thought the ammo was different. But, the best rifle shooters just got behind each rifle, and applied proper fundamentals and got their hit on each rifle with no perceivable difference. Those who were not as good had to shoot more shots, with both rifles. The heavy trigger was first, the light trigger second. The RO working that stage learned a lot.

With pistols, typically, we are shooting unsupported, with 2 hands. But the same things apply, it is just harder. And unlike shooting rifles, grip strength is a huge factor. If we grip past about 70% with our strong hand, it becomes more and more difficult to not disrupt the sight picture during the trigger press, even more so at speed. If you don't have 100 pounds of grip force, you are starting behind the 8 ball with anything 9mm and above. You will have to sacrifice speed, or accuracy. Less movement of the trigger is a bigger benefit here than 2 pounds vs. 8 pounds as less movement of the trigger finger translates to less movement imparted to the rest of the hand, and thus the handgun. Hand to grip size and proper trigger to trigger finger geometry is also important for optimum accuracy. I'd argue that a short light trigger is a larger benefit with handguns than for rifles. But it is a different dance with handguns based on how they are used and, not to go into the weeds, but single action vs. double action. Glock threw a curve ball, and other manufacturers have gone from the accepted "Safe-Action" to, for all intents, single action striker pistols.

Shotguns have their own set of fundamentals and incorporate a few elements of rifle shooting and pistol shooting. For sake of argument, we'll stick with the traditional bead sight and the notion that the rear sight is your eyeball. So having perfect fit matters the most with the shotgun. And, since the shotgun is traditionally used for moving targets, the ability to maintain the cheek, head, shoulder gun geometry through the swing, firing and follow through IS part and parcel of the fundamentals. I'd say that 75% of the missed targets from the kids on my HS shotgun team are due to stopping the gun or lifting the head...at the point they press the trigger. I'd also argue that a good trigger is more important on a shotgun than on a rifle.

I shoot my guns, a lot, and so most of them, even with factory triggers, are smoothed out in the process of my practice to get used to the gun before I use it. Yeah, I have some excellent trigger jobs done on a few revolvers, a platform where having a good trigger might be the most important. But most of my hunting rifles have the factory trigger in them. With ARs, I have at least 6 different triggers, and I shoot them all about the same when it comes to groups off the bench. I can swap lowers around and I get no change in group size. BUT, when shooting in competition, where time is also a factor, yes, a better trigger does allow a little more speed and they are a little more forgiving if my fundamentals are not on point.

Just my opinions of course, but based on a lot of data from myself, students and top tier shooters over the years.

[JohnKSa]

I started off as a kid shooting cheap airguns with really nasty triggers. I didn't know there was anything better so I just practiced and got better. I'm not saying that solved all my trigger technique issues, but it did help me understand what can be done, even with a really poor trigger.

One other thing that really helped me with my handgun trigger technique was dryfire practice with one of my DA/SA guns that has a safety that "disconnects" the trigger. With the safety on, the gun has a DA trigger that is very, very light, but still has a ton of travel. On a whim one day, I decided to dryfire practice one-handed with the safety on and found that even though the trigger was very light, I was still moving the gun around during the pull and release. I practiced a bit and got to where I could pull and release that long but light trigger without moving the gun and found that when I applied that technique to the gun's normal DA trigger which is just as long but also much, much heavier (off the scale on my trigger tester), I could keep the gun much steadier than I had ever managed before--which was kind of a surprise since I didn't think the technique learned on the very light trigger would transfer well to a heavy one. I learned a lot from that.

First of all, it drove the point home that even a light trigger can't fix poor technique.

Second, it let me know that a lot of my problem with heavier triggers was really a mental block combined with technique issues. Once my brain knew I could manipulate the long light trigger without moving the gun, somehow that broke down a fence and it became easy to do the same thing with a long heavy trigger.

There are, I find, some trigger characteristics that make it very difficult to shoot well, even with perfect technique. For example, I can shoot a long heavy trigger acceptably well, but if it has a lot of grit, I find that very difficult to deal with. Maybe my technique isn't good enough or maybe a gritty trigger is actually a limitation that just can't be overcome.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

Many years ago, I set up a stage with 2 AR15s and small targets at 100 yards. One AR had a 2 pound AR-Gold trigger in it, the other an 8 pound Mil-Spec trigger, but all else was the same. If you guessed that folks preferred the AR with the better trigger, you would be right.

Emphasis added.

As a recreational shooter, what I prefer in a trigger matters at least as much to me as performance.

I really like a Rock River two stage varmint trigger. It will have a 3 pound or so first stage and a one pound second stage with little overtravel that reminds me of an old BRNO4 single stage that had a small hitch just before it broke. I also have a couple of polymer triggers that are kind of unpleasant. The trigger bow is skinny and they've a bunch of over-travel. Off a bench, I can make smaller groups with the unpleasant polymer trigger, but I haven't taken it to the range in years. I just don't enjoy it.

Speaking for myself (I have XXL hands but modest grip strength), pistol performance seems more influenced by trigger characteristics. If memory serves, my pistol accuracy degrades if the press isn't smooth. I can work past a rough travel on a rifle once I get to know it, but with a pistol where the thing points seeming too influenced by the changes in trigger finger pressure or how I hold through the press.

I do have one of those "enhanced" GI AR triggers. I bet it is 6 pounds, but it is also very smooth. I could see it being pleasant and transparent in use.

On the other hand, a light but rough trigger is no gift. I use Hiperfire EDT single stage triggers on 22lr rifles; they use a lighter hammer so I can use a lighter hammer spring. Pull weight is between two and three pounds, but any roughness is made more apparent by the light pull.

[MarkCO]

but if it has a lot of grit, I find that very difficult to deal with

I agree, and I believe that a gritty trigger is inconsistent, and incompatible with being consistent at some point.

[44 AMP]

If you don't have 100 pounds of grip force, you are starting behind the 8 ball with anything 9mm and above

This is a bit confusing to me, as I have never in my life had my "grip force" measured, and have no idea how, (or where?) you do it and no clue what 70% of my "maximum" would be....or how to know if I reach it....

When needed, I grip my pistols "firmly" and when not important, not so much..

ALMOST any trigger can be learned and lived with, if it is CONSISTENT. But, if its not, you can't do well with it.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This is a bit confusing to me, as I have never in my life had my "grip force" measured, and have no idea how, (or where?) you do it and no clue what 70% of my "maximum" would be....or how to know if I reach it....

What did I miss? If you have 100 pounds of grip force, or more, you have the physical ability to shoot fast AND accurate (we are talking sub .15s splits keeping shot in the A zone of an IPSC target out to about 20 yards or so). If you don't, you have to use the slider to decide which one to give up. A little speed or a little accuracy if you have say 85 to 100 pounds. Might have to give up some speed and accuracy if you have less than 85 pounds, and certainly, going to give up at least a good deal of speed if under 50 pounds. This is something that has been documented among the top tier pistol shooters in USPSA. Most of them are in the 105+ range with a few up into the 130 pound range. Ron Avery was the first to bring this element of pistol shooting fundamentals to my awareness. Charlie Perez really delved into it big time for a year or two.

There are a variety of grip strength exercisers/gauges available. Before my stenosis diagnosis, I was losing grip strength, and the first thing that alerted me to the problem was that. In 2019, my grip strength was over 100 pounds. By November 2022, when I had my surgery, I was in the 60 pound range. It's coming back, but I am still not back to 80 pounds.

FWIW, a late 20s male is in the range of 72-109 with females being 48-78. A 55-59 year old male is in the 58-92 range, so my goal is to get back to 92. Sports strength and conditioning, kinesiology and some other professionals deal with this topic. In fact, grip strength is a metric measured by a lot of Pro teams.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

ALMOST any trigger can be learned and lived with, if it is CONSISTENT. But, if its not, you can't do well with it.

100% agreement from me.

[rickyrick]

I think if I was shooting from a bench, I could shoot about the same with any trigger.

If I was shooting off the cuff or have other additional handicaps triggers might make a difference
A nice trigger takes one handicap out of the equation.
A 2lb trigger would make me nervous.
On a side note, I think the worst trigger I ever had was on a mosin nagant. The thing was made exactly like a live catch trap, but was somehow worse than the trap lol.

[Double Naught Spy]

Until this thread, I have often told folks that I prefer a really clean, short, SA trigger as I need all the help I can get. However, after reading the OP's statement, I think that may be the wrong way of looking at the issue.

This may be a simple minded approach, but I don't know that a good trigger masks shooter shortcomings as much as it doesn't force the shooter to have to overcome the shortcomings of the trigger.

Years ago, Ayoob had an article on pistol triggers, noting that the first shot hit rate for single action triggers was definitely higher than for double action triggers in police shootings (citing some stats he or someone else had compiled). He also noted that with DA/SA triggers, the hit rate went up with the 2nd shot. In the case of pistols, why should a person have to struggle with a 8-13 lb long DA trigger when a short 4-6 lb SA trigger will do the job?

Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with becoming proficient with a less good trigger. I had a buddy with a foreign pistol with a cruddy trigger that he shot well. I had trouble making it shoot 5" groups at 10 yards whereas he was shooting 2" groups. He shot my 1911 (in .45 acp and not 9mm like his gun) and shot better with it than with his gun. Of course, I shot my 1911 better as well, which is why I picked it.

Contrary to the popular teaching notion that the gun going off should be a surprise to the shooter, I would much rather it NOT be a surprise. If I am putting lead down range, I want to know exactly when I am sending it. I really dislike the feeling of a comparatively long DA trigger when I think the gun should have discharged already and I am still pulling the trigger.

To date, I don't believe I have met anyone that shoots better with a crappy trigger than with a good trigger. They may shoot equally well, but not better. However, I have met plenty of people like my buddy who shoot better with a better trigger despite being proficient with a cruddy trigger.

If I am using a gun for hunting or self defense, I am already compensating for the fact that the gun is a better choice than using a knife or my bare hands. I don't want to have to compensate for the gun as well. Again, just my simple minded approach to the issue. Bottom line is that I shoot better with a better trigger. If folks want to say that the trigger is masking my shortcomings, that is fine. All I care about are the results down range.

[44 AMP]

In the case of pistols, why should a person have to struggle with a 8-13 lb long DA trigger when a short 4-6 lb SA trigger will do the job?

For safety.

It's a matter of choice, and design philosophy. The SA school of thought is that the gun is safe to carry cocked, with the manual safety applied. The DA school holds that it is safer to carry the gun uncocked and uses a longer, heavier trigger pull to cock and then fire the gun, avoiding a separate manual safety in revolvers and some semi auto designs..

Both systems are as safe as the user, and vice versa.

Contrary to the popular teaching notion that the gun going off should be a surprise to the shooter, I would much rather it NOT be a surprise.

I think you're taking the word surprise just a little to literally. The shot should never be a total surprise, but the precise moment of firing should be a slight surprise, in the sense of knowing its about to happen but not trying to anticipate the precise moment, but rather to focus on other things, the target, the sights and the trigger pull.

Back when I was taught, beginners were trained not to try and keep the sights perfectly on target all the time, they will wander, and not to tense up and try to force them to be still. Apply pressure to the trigger when the sights are on target, and hold that pressure when they wander off target, and when they come back on target, add more trigger pull, repeating this general method until the shot went off, which would be a slight surprise.

The point was to teach patience, so shooters would not rush the shot, rushing leads many to jerking the trigger, with a miss being the common result.

Certainly there are lots of ways to learn how to shoot, and some of the beginner's advice becomes irrelevant with increasing skill through practice.

[Double Naught Spy]

For safety.

Mmmkay, that is a choice, particularly if your gun doesn't have a safety, but it comes with its own price as noted by Ayoob. As you say, it is a matter of choice and I don't choose to go with a heavy trigger pull, but an appropriately lighter trigger with a safety.

I think you're taking the word surprise just a little to literally.

Flat out, NO. I have had more than one instructor explain that we should not know when the gun is going to fire and that we should be surprised by it going off. This was to prevent students from anticipatory flinching, ostensibly for the reason that they won't flinch if they don't know when it will go off. Nobody said anything about "slight" surprise, LOL.

[L. Boscoe]

triggers for Bullseye are a much different issue than SD. A BE gun does not usually double for SD, primarily because they are too big to carry all day and
the lighter triggers are a safety factor. That said, it is obvious, at least to me, that the lighter triggers work better in a BE setting

[zeke]

Am still preferring 2 stage triggers with a clean break and not too light. Wished i had started with a da revolver, and will likely never unlearn certain bad habits. If you can accurately shoot a da revolver, it seems to go a long way to using almost any difficult trigger. Also imo, hand fit including trigger reach is very important.

[rickyrick]

Dry firing, if applicable to your gun, is valuable; especially if trying to get rid of a flinch.



I used to subscribe to the “surprise” school of thought. That was until I had really gotten into hunting things. I found out that in practical shooting, you really want to know when the gun is going to fire.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by rickyrick

Dry firing, if applicable to your gun, is valuable; especially if trying to get rid of a flinch.



I used to subscribe to the “surprise” school of thought. That was until I had really gotten into hunting things. I found out that in practical shooting, you really want to know when the gun is going to fire.

Agree on both counts.

[Nathan]

This is interesting. Like most, I have learned to use some terrible triggers quite well over the years. So, I generally question the idea of improving a trigger to shrink groups.

For rifles, I generally tune triggers to have a good feel and weight is secondary. This feel is all about the sear release. To me that is more important than weight. Weights vary 1.5oz to 3.5lbs.

For pistols, I’ve mostly gone away from safetyless plastic wondernines, except for those with a pivoting sear on a pin. For example my S&W m&p shield plus 9mm. Even though it has some plastic components, it pulls pretty well….or good enough. I also have a CW380 which is similar, but DA. All that Said, I prefer my 1911’s and revolvers.

For shotguns, I like the idea of a better trigger. My Browning is usable, but I’ve never seen a good trigger. I’ve handled $500 - $50000 guns. Most were a bit creepy, but usable. Nothing too crisp.

All this said….any trigger work that I do or pay for is to make me feel good….doesn’t usually make any improvement on target.

[gwpercle]

A realy good trigger beats a poor trigger Seven Ways to Sunday and then some !

Want to improve your shooting scores on NRA Bullseye Match ...
Have Clark Custom Guns do a "Target Trigger Job" on your handgun ...
The increase in scores will simply blow your mind !
Shooting for money with a poor trigger can be done but a "Good" trigger is just the sweetest thing you can shoot with ... it will put a Smile on your face and a song in your heart !
Gary

[ballardw]

An element I haven't seen mentioned yet is a trigger behaving as designed.

I have a Chinese Tokarev that has an added "safety" lever. That falls out. And will fire after the lever falls out but the pull is in the 20 pound range and very rough.

[zukiphile]

When I shoot for score, what holds me back are gross errors, usually from attempting a micro-correction as the shot breaks, or not having NPOA right, or sometimes letting my mind wander. I can't attribute any of those to the trigger.

[Sharkbite]

As Instructors we use the term “surprise break” in regards to the trigger in an attempt to get the student to understand (and not) flinch or anticipate the shot. I think it was Col Cooper that first described “pre-ignition push” to explain the act of knowing the pistol is about to fire and trying to counter that recoil force by pushing forward on the gun.

Of course you know the gun will fire as you break the sear. You loaded it, you are aiming it, you are applying pressure to the trigger. Avoiding the tendency (especially new shooters) to think “ok the sights look good, shoot NOW” is a key element to good accuracy.

[Shadow9mm]

Ok, saw this thread and I have been mulling over it most of the day. Fair warning I may rock the boat a little bit.

To my understanding the premise is that, if group sizes get better when going to a lighter trigger, it is because a lack in fundamentals on the part of the shooter. Basically if the shooter had good fundamentals both groups should have been the same size.

To me this begs the question, what are "fundamentals?"

It also asks the question, "Why are fundamental needed?"

To me and my understanding the word in the context in which is it being used is as a skill or technique used while shooting. The goal being to steady the weapon while aiming to aid in hitting the target with a small group dispersion.

So, lest go down this rabbit trail.

Why are fundamentals needed? To my understanding precision shooters try to find ways, techniques, and tools, to limit the input of the shooter into the gun. Because the interaction between the shooter and the gun can impart additional variables into the shot.

The goal of fundamentals is to regulate the shooters body and reduce the input into the firearm.

For example, in this case, in relation to a trigger as a single variable. lets say 2 identical triggers with the exception of pull weight. say 5oz vs 5lb. With the 5lb trigger the shooter is imparting 5lb of force which is being imparted into the rifle. the shooter must then use "fundamentals" to counter the forces being imparted through the trigger to steady the rifle. with a 5oz trigger significantly less force and shooter input is being imparted into the rifle and this less compensation and or "technique" is needed.

In short fundamentals are a coping mechanism to counter deficiencies in the firearm, or reduce human error being imparted into the rifle.

So the question becomes. Does one focus on building and maintaining a perishable skills, AKA "fundamentals". Or does one invest in better equipment, in this case a trigger, reducing the need for "fundamentals" AKA coping mechanisms.


To me the over all goal is accuracy, hitting the intended target with as small of a group dispersion as possible.

Both methods help to achieve the goal of accuracy. However improved equipment is not a perishable skill... I would recommend the lighter trigger so that one can focus on other aspects of "fundamentals", reducing variables.

[JohnKSa]

To me this begs the question, what are "fundamentals?"

Holding the gun steady while operating the trigger. That includes:
1. Not yanking the trigger. (Operating the trigger in a controlled fashion--which can be done more than one way.)
2. Not moving the gun to one side or the other when operating the trigger. (Driving the trigger straight back into the gun rather than getting sideways pressure on the trigger due to improper finger placement.)
3. Not anticipating the shot and inadvertently moving the gun reflexively.
4. Following through to insure that intended post-shot movement doesn't inadvertently begin before the shot breaks.

With the 5lb trigger the shooter is imparting 5lb of force which is being imparted into the rifle. the shooter must then use "fundamentals" to counter the forces being imparted through the trigger to steady the rifle. with a 5oz trigger significantly less force and shooter input is being imparted into the rifle and this less compensation and or "technique" is needed.

I have guns with DA triggers that measure around 15lbs. I have match airguns with triggers that are lighter than 1lbs. I've managed to shoot very well with the heavy DA triggers when using proper trigger technique. I've managed to throw shots off target with the match airguns when I don't use proper trigger technique.

I would recommend the lighter trigger so that one can focus on other aspects of "fundamentals", reducing variables.

If a person doesn't get trigger technique mastered, a lighter trigger can help reduce the impact of some of the problems that will result, but it can't eliminate them. If the goal is really "small of a group dispersion as possible" then sooner or later the shooter will have to deal with the trigger issues or they won't ever really be able to achieve the goal.

[MarkCO]

With the 5lb trigger the shooter is imparting 5lb of force which is being imparted into the rifle.

Nope. If the 5 pounds of force imparted to the trigger transfers to the gun, then the shooter does not have the fundamentals down, not even close.

[Nathan]

Why are fundamentals needed? To my understanding precision shooters try to find ways, techniques, and tools, to limit the input of the shooter into the gun. Because the interaction between the shooter and the gun can impart additional variables into the shot.

The goal of fundamentals is to regulate the shooters body and reduce the input into the firearm.

At the rush of over simplifying things. Fundamentals are how to grip the rifle, use the rest, control the shooter input so that pulling the trigger results in zero trigger bounce. Now, there are a set of best practices that vary slightly person to person, instructor to instructor.

IMO, my best success has been doing the same things over and over while trying to understand what I’m doing that makes me successful.

Now, the real test of fundamentals are lighter rifles with heavier triggers. You have to hold on, but without influencing the aim during trigger break.