Full Power 10mm Personal Defense Ammo??

[Zzeke]

Anyone know of any good full power 10mm hollow points for personal defense? Everything I see from the name brand "go to" ammo companies seems to be downloaded to .40 S+W ballistics. If I wanted that, I'd carry my Glock 23.

[shurshot]

Take it from a fellow Mainer; Underwood. 1300 fps 180 JHP. Or, 140 Xtreme Penetrator 1500 fps. Good stuff.
Big step up from the standard FMJ target / .40 level stuff.
Last I knew, Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore had some... at least they did before I recently ordered a bunch.

Don't bother checking KTP... I was there this afternoon, they are cleaned out of ammo. Nothing left. Never seen shelves empty like this in the 40+ years I have been shopping there.

[corneileous]

Check Underwood and Sig. Most are out of stock but the Sig Vcrown 180g hollow point defense round and the Underwood 180 grain are full power over 1200fps with at least 600 ft pounds of muzzle energy.


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[RickB]

The old Winchester 175gr Silvertip is still a pretty hot round.
I found a couple of boxes of vintage Norma ammo, and only one of the twenty rounds I chrono'd exceeded 1000fps.

[Forte S+W]

The trick about 10mm Auto is that practically all of the personal defense ammo is just .40 S&W in a longer case, albeit for good reason. Like most handgun cartridges, 10mm Auto's enhanced energy begets diminishing returns because while it has more energy than say .40 S&W or .45 ACP, it doesn't have enough more energy to make much of a difference within the human body because it falls below the threshold for remote wounding capabilities, so that extra energy is somewhat wasted on humans and is better suited for use against larger predatory animals like bears.
Contrary to what the results of extensive Ballistics Gel Testing conducted by the FBI suggests, bigger, heavier bullets, do have more of an effect on the body, but unfortunately their testing is blind to this fact because the effect is specifically in regards to bone rather than flesh. Bigger, heavier bullets cause bones to shatter more readily than a smaller, lighter, faster bullet which is more likely to zip straight through bone leaving behind either a hole or a fracture. However, against a human being, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are already known to smash through bone, so the 10mm Auto's greater energy is somewhat wasted there. It shines against larger beasts with thicker bones, hence why most full power 10mm loads use hardcast lead bullets or gaschecked semi-jacketed softpoints.

That being said, if you insist on using 10mm Auto for personal defense and want something hotter than .40 S&W, then you want something like Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm ammo. Technically it's designed for hunting rather than personal defense, but it's a Jacketed Hollowpoint load that obviously will work on a human being, and can potentially result in more devastating wounds than .40 S&W.

[JohnKSa]

The Trophy Bonded bullet is going to give a lot more penetration than a typical self-defense round and expansion will likely be much reduced compared to a more conventional self-defense hollowpoint.

Unless well over 2 feet of penetration is a requirement, something that expands a bit more aggressively might be a better choice for self-defense. That will also ensure that more of the bullet's energy is spent in the target instead of providing crazy penetration numbers. IMO, part of what I pay for (in recoil and blast) is a lot of energy. If a bunch of that energy exits out the back of the target and is expended on the sky, I kind of feel like I'm not getting what I paid for.

If the goal is a lot of velocity, Hornady's 155gr XTP should get close to 1350fps with good expansion and penetration.

If maximum expansion is the goal, SIG's 180gr V-Crown will nearly double in diameter and provide average penetration around 18". Velocity is in the neighborhood of 1140fps. I suppose there are loads out there that push the bullet faster, but with final expansion numbers over 3/4 of an inch and and a foot and a half of penetration, I'm not sure what the point of more velocity would be.

[volkstrm]

I find that in 357sig,most is under powered.

[shurshot]

Midway shows Underwood 10mm still in stock. Whatever you decide on, don't wait too long. I don't see ammo becoming widely available again in the near future.

[corneileous]

Originally Posted by RickB

The old Winchester 175gr Silvertip is still a pretty hot round.
I found a couple of boxes of vintage Norma ammo, and only one of the twenty rounds I chrono'd exceeded 1000fps.

I don’t know if these are old or new but they advertise a feet/ second of 1200 and 559 foot pounds of muzzle energy.


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[corneileous]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

The trick about 10mm Auto is that practically all of the personal defense ammo is just .40 S&W in a longer case, albeit for good reason. Like most handgun cartridges, 10mm Auto's enhanced energy begets diminishing returns because while it has more energy than say .40 S&W or .45 ACP, it doesn't have enough more energy to make much of a difference within the human body because it falls below the threshold for remote wounding capabilities, so that extra energy is somewhat wasted on humans and is better suited for use against larger predatory animals like bears.
Contrary to what the results of extensive Ballistics Gel Testing conducted by the FBI suggests, bigger, heavier bullets, do have more of an effect on the body, but unfortunately their testing is blind to this fact because the effect is specifically in regards to bone rather than flesh. Bigger, heavier bullets cause bones to shatter more readily than a smaller, lighter, faster bullet which is more likely to zip straight through bone leaving behind either a hole or a fracture. However, against a human being, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are already known to smash through bone, so the 10mm Auto's greater energy is somewhat wasted there. It shines against larger beasts with thicker bones, hence why most full power 10mm loads use hardcast lead bullets or gaschecked semi-jacketed softpoints.

That being said, if you insist on using 10mm Auto for personal defense and want something hotter than .40 S&W, then you want something like Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm ammo. Technically it's designed for hunting rather than personal defense, but it's a Jacketed Hollowpoint load that obviously will work on a human being, and can potentially result in more devastating wounds than .40 S&W.

That’s a good definition on that as I’ve always kinda wondered in the back of my mind why most of the major ammunition companies like Federal, Hornady and Speer for example make their personal defense rounds for 10 mm a lot less-powered but I’m confused on how a full power 10mm hollow point wouldn’t at least be the same if not even more effective against a human predator than it’s less-powerful little brother, the 40S&W.

Although my Sig P220 10mm probably won’t be my first choice in an emergency home defense situation since I bought it for woods-carry with 220g hard casts- it’s more likely going to be either the 9mm Beretta PX4 storm in the nightstand drawer that’s loaded with 124g HST’s, or my EDC Springfield XDE 45 on top of the dresser that’s loaded with the short-barrel 230 Speer Gold Dot HP’s, I bought several boxes of the Sig Elite Vcrown 180g hollow points because those were the only ones I knew of at the time that weren’t “watered down”.


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[BJung]

Reload. You can make loads up to what your handgun can handle. I once had a powder that wouldn't group my cartridges well. But, it was perfect for my brother's 10mm Glock. That 180gr JHP bullet load could would throw a flame out of the muzzle and you could hear the bullet hit the backside of an indoor range.

[Forte S+W]

Originally Posted by corneileous

That’s a good definition on that as I’ve always kinda wondered in the back of my mind why most of the major ammunition companies like Federal, Hornady and Speer for example make their personal defense rounds for 10 mm a lot less-powered but I’m confused on how a full power 10mm hollow point wouldn’t at least be the same if not even more effective against a human predator than it’s less-powerful little brother, the 40S&W.

As previously stated, 10mm Auto isn't substantially better than .40 S&W when it comes to self-defense against human enemies because although it has substantially more velocity/energy than .40 S&W, the velocity/energy threshold falls well below the threshold for remote wounding capabilities. In other words, surrounding tissue isn't torn by the energy transfer, it just gets stretched out temporarily, which while I'm sure does not feel pleasant at all, results in no greater damage. Rifle cartridges actually travel so fast and deliver so much energy that surrounding tissue can be torn apart by it, but said rifle cartridges are typically traveling at velocities higher than 2500fps and delivering thousands of foot-pounds of energy, whereas 10mm typically travels between 1200fps-1500fps depending on the load and delivers energy between 500ftlbs-750ftlbs.
Furthermore, while the heavier bullets beget greater momentum which in turn has more dramatic effects against bone, .40 S&W as well as .45 ACP can both already smash through bones, so it really doesn't make much of a difference.
Last but not least, full-power 10mm loads are more likely to punch right through a person without expanding as much as .40 S&W let alone .45 ACP in the process, and none of that energy gets dumped into the target, so any potential momentary extra shock/pain which may result from said energy transfer is completely lost/wasted.

Granted that nobody should ever count on a gunshot resulting in a psychological stop as a result of the physical discomfort it may cause, but I would rather have a hot chunk of lead stuck in an attacker that may potentially make him decide that there are better places to be than in my sights, not to mention more pleasant things to experience within the remainder of their life than a follow-up shot.

Everyone knows the old Urban Legend that the FBI began using reduced power 10mm loads followed by the equivalent .40 S&W because the desk jockies and lady agents just couldn't handle the awesome power of 10mm Auto, but it's just that, an Urban Legend. The reality of the situation was that full-power 10mm Auto was excessive for their needs and posed a greater risk of collateral damage by overpenetration. I have it on good authority by FBI Agents of the time that the only complaints agents in general had was that the S&W Model 1076 they were issued was too big in their hands and uncomfortable to carry all day, being a big, heavy slab of steel. In addition, the FBI was having some reliability issues with the 1076 and parts breaking. As for the cartridge it fired, the agents didn't really mind the recoil that much, especially not after what happened at the 1986 Miami-Dade Shootout. It was the organization itself that decided that full-power 10mm Auto was excessive, and not because of its recoil impulse or anything else like that.

[jmr40]

There is no law that you have to always use full power 10mm. Having the option is what makes it so versatile. If trying to stop 2 legged predators the loads at or just over 40 S&W levels are about as effective as any handgun round can be.

If you want to hunt with it, or want SD from larger 4 legged predators that is what they make the full power loads for.

And FWIW, If I'm not hiking or camping in bear country the 10mm stays home. It doesn't offer me any advantage over my 9mm and 45 pistols.

[Cosmodragoon]

I'm also in the camp that if you're going to the trouble of using 10mm, you should go all the way. Forte S+W raises some good points though. What do you get for that trouble? Providing you are reasonably proficient, the extra power might be helpful but it might not depending on the circumstance.

As far as those Xtreme Penetrators, I see the appeal. While they might not penetrate better than FMJ in some media, they do tend to chew out a decent wound channel. In lesser calibers like .380 where hollow-point expansion is questionable, they can be a good alternative. In greater calibers, they may be valuable for wildlife.

I'd love to see some comparisons between the 140-grain 10mm version, the 140-grain .357 magnum version, and the 115-grain .357 Sig version.

[JERRYS.]

Underwood. 135gr for summer, 165 for winter, 180-200 solids for the woods.

[corneileous]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

As previously stated, 10mm Auto isn't substantially better than .40 S&W when it comes to self-defense against human enemies because although it has substantially more velocity/energy than .40 S&W, the velocity/energy threshold falls well below the threshold for remote wounding capabilities. In other words, surrounding tissue isn't torn by the energy transfer, it just gets stretched out temporarily, which while I'm sure does not feel pleasant at all, results in no greater damage. Rifle cartridges actually travel so fast and deliver so much energy that surrounding tissue can be torn apart by it, but said rifle cartridges are typically traveling at velocities higher than 2500fps and delivering thousands of foot-pounds of energy, whereas 10mm typically travels between 1200fps-1500fps depending on the load and delivers energy between 500ftlbs-750ftlbs.
Furthermore, while the heavier bullets beget greater momentum which in turn has more dramatic effects against bone, .40 S&W as well as .45 ACP can both already smash through bones, so it really doesn't make much of a difference.
Last but not least, full-power 10mm loads are more likely to punch right through a person without expanding as much as .40 S&W let alone .45 ACP in the process, and none of that energy gets dumped into the target, so any potential momentary extra shock/pain which may result from said energy transfer is completely lost/wasted.

Granted that nobody should ever count on a gunshot resulting in a psychological stop as a result of the physical discomfort it may cause, but I would rather have a hot chunk of lead stuck in an attacker that may potentially make him decide that there are better places to be than in my sights, not to mention more pleasant things to experience within the remainder of their life than a follow-up shot.

Everyone knows the old Urban Legend that the FBI began using reduced power 10mm loads followed by the equivalent .40 S&W because the desk jockies and lady agents just couldn't handle the awesome power of 10mm Auto, but it's just that, an Urban Legend. The reality of the situation was that full-power 10mm Auto was excessive for their needs and posed a greater risk of collateral damage by overpenetration. I have it on good authority by FBI Agents of the time that the only complaints agents in general had was that the S&W Model 1076 they were issued was too big in their hands and uncomfortable to carry all day, being a big, heavy slab of steel. In addition, the FBI was having some reliability issues with the 1076 and parts breaking. As for the cartridge it fired, the agents didn't really mind the recoil that much, especially not after what happened at the 1986 Miami-Dade Shootout. It was the organization itself that decided that full-power 10mm Auto was excessive, and not because of its recoil impulse or anything else like that.

I guess I’m just more uneducated about the 10mm than I thought I was but now it raises a question; well, actually a couple of questions. First, if a regular 40sw is just as good as a low-power 10mm then why even bother with basically having the ability to flip a switch on a 10mm down to 40sw? Second, I actually have a 40sw full-size pistol; it’s a Beretta PX4 Storm. Not like it’ll change anything on what I use for home Defense but, would the Storm be better or worse than a 5 inch, fully stainless 10mm pistol if both guns were firing pretty much the same pressure 180g HP? Oh, and the Storm’s barrel is just a smidge over 4 inches.


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[corneileous]

Originally Posted by jmr40

There is no law that you have to always use full power 10mm. Having the option is what makes it so versatile. If trying to stop 2 legged predators the loads at or just over 40 S&W levels are about as effective as any handgun round can be.

If you want to hunt with it, or want SD from larger 4 legged predators that is what they make the full power loads for.

I’m starting to see that now.

And FWIW, If I'm not hiking or camping in bear country the 10mm stays home. It doesn't offer me any advantage over my 9mm and 45 pistols.

That’s me. I bought my Sig P220 Elite for when I’m out in the woods. I didn’t buy it as an EDC. Sucker’s to heavy fir that, at nearly 40 ounces empty. lol.


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[Forte S+W]

Originally Posted by corneileous

I guess I’m just more uneducated about the 10mm than I thought I was but now it raises a question; well, actually a couple of questions. First, if a regular 40sw is just as good as a low-power 10mm then why even bother with basically having the ability to flip a switch on a 10mm down to 40sw? Second, I actually have a 40sw full-size pistol; it’s a Beretta PX4 Storm. Not like it’ll change anything on what I use for home Defense but, would the Storm be better or worse than a 5 inch, fully stainless 10mm pistol if both guns were firing pretty much the same pressure 180g HP? Oh, and the Storm’s barrel is just a smidge over 4 inches.

Here's my opinion on the matter, unless you foresee yourself treading in bear country with nothing better to carry or otherwise just plain want to own a pistol chambered in 10mm Auto, I see no practical reason to own a 10mm over a .40 simply because full-power 10mm Auto is best reserved for either bear defense or recreation, and .40 S&W is significantly cheaper than the equivalent 10mm Auto loads.
A longer barrel generally yields higher velocity, so technically the 10mm Pistol with a 5" Barrel would be better than the PX4 Storm. However, the PX4 is cheaper to feed and you already own it, so I wouldn't recommend buying a new 10mm Pistol over it. Besides, it would be a marginal difference in performance.

There was a point in time when I myself was tempted to buy a 10mm Pistol, but the more I looked into it, the less interested I became. If I were going into bear country, then I'd take my Mossberg 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Slugs, and for EDC I'll stick with my SW40VE.

But that's all just my opinion.

[corneileous]

Originally Posted by Forte S+W

Here's my opinion on the matter, unless you foresee yourself treading in bear country with nothing better to carry or otherwise just plain want to own a pistol chambered in 10mm Auto, I see no practical reason to own a 10mm over a .40 simply because full-power 10mm Auto is best reserved for either bear defense or recreation, and .40 S&W is significantly cheaper than the equivalent 10mm Auto loads.
A longer barrel generally yields higher velocity, so technically the 10mm Pistol with a 5" Barrel would be better than the PX4 Storm. However, the PX4 is cheaper to feed and you already own it, so I wouldn't recommend buying a new 10mm Pistol over it. Besides, it would be a marginal difference in performance.

There was a point in time when I myself was tempted to buy a 10mm Pistol, but the more I looked into it, the less interested I became. If I were going into bear country, then I'd take my Mossberg 590 Shockwave loaded with Brenneke Slugs, and for EDC I'll stick with my SW40VE.

But that's all just my opinion.

Seems like I need to clarify but I did buy a 10mm. Long time ago. I bought it pretty much for woods carry. I really only bought the Sig V-crown Elite HP’s for it just so that I’d have another gun loaded for home defense. Even though it stays loaded with hollowpoints when at the house, it’s not really my go-to gun if there ever was an uninvited guest in the middle of the night.

Sometimes I kinda wish it woulda been a 44mag but since I’m not really into revolvers, it was either the Sig, or a much more expensive Desert Eagle in either 44mag or 50AE so the Sig P220 fit the bill much better.

I do like the idea of that shotgun loaded with what sounds like some pretty wicked slugs but I’m pretty sure the Underwood 220g hard casts in the Sig will do the trick. I just wish I could find an extended magazine for it.


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[rock185]

Zzeke, I admit to being a fan of the 10MM since the introduction of the Bren ten pistol, and have owned I don't know how many 10MM Pistols and revolvers since. I've used several different types of factory ammo, and reloaded 10MM since dies became available. I realize it is not everyone's cup of tea, but I continue to enjoy the cartridge and guns chambered for it. You might have a look at the Lucky Gunner or tnoutdoors9 gel tests for actual velocities and to get some idea of how JHP 10MM compares to other cartridges suitable for personal defense.

BTW, RickB, back in the day the original 200 grain 10MM Norma ammo actually did produce a chronographed 1200 FPS or so in my semi-autos and revolvers with 5" barrels. I recently chronographed the very last of my original Norma 200 grain ammo in my S&W 1026. It averaged 1211 FPS. Norma did continue to produce the 200 grain 10MM ammo for some time, packaged in the same boxes displaying a velocity of 1200 FPS, but the ammo had been loaded down. The loaded down Norma 10MM had primers with a tiny "NP" stamped into them. I'd have to dig through my old chronograph notes to find the exact numbers, but the later "NP" marked Norma I chronographed did produce less than the advertised 1200 FPS in my guns...

ETA, Got out my notes from August of this year, and found the last of my Norma was chronographed in my 5" Ruger revolver, not the 1026. The 1211 FPS is correct though.

[CDW4ME]

May not be nuclear, but aint weak either; Hornady 155 XTP 10mm
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/
1,344 fps from a 4.6'' barrel

[Ruger45LC]

If I were to pack around a 10mm I suppose I'd look to either the Hornady 155gr or 180gr XTP and even the "lesser" 200gr Gold Dot and HST would be good options, you don't need maxed out 10mm for self defense and frankly I'd much rather use the G23 (and I do).

The 10mm to me is kind of in an odd spot because for social use I'm not sure it's going to really accomplish anything the .40 or .45 won't already do and really the same applies to woods use, will it really do anything a warm .40 or .45 won't already do? I get that people "think" it will but I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can kill with a 10mm that wouldn't die just as well to a .40 or .45. If I'm in the woods and want more, I grab a big bore revolver.

We've seen animals run off after a solid hit from a rifle making much more energy than service pistols, I don't put tons of faith in "energy" alone because I've seen deer drop like a sack of potatoes when shot with factory .40 S&W ammo which has way less "energy" than most any rifle. That's why, with the relatively minuscule difference between .40, 10mm and 45 that I don't see one greatly outperforming another. With the .40 and 10mm it's like arguing which kills better at 150 yards, a 308 Win. or a .30-06.

[Big Shrek]

Buffalo Bore 10mm is good stuff as well...my Witness 10mm likes it.
If it'll work good on a black bear, it'll work just as good on a 300-lb crackhead.

I've just converted all my .45acp pistols to .45-Super, but you gotta load your own for that caliber.
They'll still use .45acp, but toss the brass into the next county

[bamaranger]

The 10mm Auto is notorious for being underloaded in several commercial loadings. The two commercial loads that reportedly offer better numbers, and are not from boutique suppliers and USED to seem more available are the W-W 175 and the Sig 180 V-crown. Good luck finding either these days.

[Brian48]

I've found that most of the lighter 150gr-155gr loadings are still pretty hot. If you want to go heavier, the Winchester Silvertip is still my favorite overall, full power load.