Mauser 98 EJECTION issue

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Complete Mauser ejector assemblies are not that hard to come by.
You can leave your original untouched. If you are getting insufficient protrusion of your ejector blade from the bolt face,you can take some steel off the replacement bolt stop. See what happens.
If it does not help,your original is still pristine.
At full bolt rear stroke,how much does the ejector blade protrude from the bolt face? A precision calibrated eyeball measurement should suffice.
A Mauser is pretty simple,and they have been around a long time.

I am not sure if it has enough window, my Mauser 98 seems similar but there is no way to be sure. The receiver would be the last thing I want to remove material from though.

The ejector protrudes a tiny bit beyond the shroud of the bolt face, it looks just like my 98k. Could be a few thousands less, but I cant tell by just eyeballing it. I'll get a new bolt stop/housing to test if shortening it helps.

Originally Posted by hooligan1

Moloch, I didn't read every reply here, I had same problem once, weak magazine spring, pull it and stretch it a bit.
If it doesn't respond maybe a new one will help.

I don't think that is whats happening, ejection is significantly better with an EMPTY magazine. I also swapped the follower spring and follower with those of my other working Mauser, I got the same result.

Originally Posted by Scorch

Sounds like the rims of your 7X57 ammo fit the bolt face and extractor too tight. Check the thickness of the rims and see how tight they fit under the extractor claw. If they are too tight they will not eject smoothly. And always, always, always run a M98 bolt forcefully!

I checked the rim sizes and compared it with the 8x57 cases I have, which work great in my K98k. They are the same size. Also, my 98k feeds the 7x57 ammo, I already tried that. (Not all the way though, its an 8x57 gun after all)
Also, as I mentioned, if I slip an empty brass case under the extractor the case is held firm and nicely, just as the bolt of my K98k does.

[Moloch]

I did some more experiments with dummies and empty brass cases, I can now say with total certainty:
If the upmost cartridge in the magazine box is on the left side the rifle will not properly eject the brass case. If the topmost cartridge in the magazine is on the right side, or if there is no round in the magazine at all, ejection is fine.

I am pretty sure that when brass is ejected the rear of the empty brass hits the rim of the unfired cartridge of the left side of the magazine. If the topmost cartridge is on the right side the brass has enough space to clear everything and to be ejected out with force.

But - how in the 9 hells am I supposed to fix THAT?

[HiBC]

Its hard to say what parts you got in your kit. There are variants in followers.
The ridge on top of the follower determines the left/right stacking.
I'm not sayting "Eureka!!" but the rising follower/cartridge below the round being ejected plays a part.
I suggest swapping the spring/follower from one of your other Mausers to try.
EZ enough to try

[Moloch]

I already swapped the follower with my working mausers, it did not help at all.

[HiBC]

A couple of other things I have observed working with milsurp Mausers. Yours is apparently a commercial,this may not apply.
The receiver rails are typically soft,and they are not a high alloy steel.
The process of using a proper barrel vise and receiver wrench is slow and takes dedicated tools.
If you work in the warehouse of some gun boneyard or if you are an amateur who has a lot to learn,you might use a tire iron or a crescent wrench to unscrew the receiver from the barrel. The receiver will twist. The rails will bend.
The geometry of the receiver is hosed.
I once bought a 1952 vintage commercial FN Supreme Magnum action that had that problem (I later discovered) . I had the inspection tools,surface plate,height gauge,vee blocks toolmaker vise,,indicators,etc.

I made a wrench,like a long bolt with locking lugs and a handle and straightened the mess back out . But folks need to know its remarkably easy to twist the rails of a Mauser .They are not an anvil.

Another potential issue is the extractor itself. Like a 1911 extractor, just a little judicious filing ...a chamfer here,a radius there,a bit of blending, with an eye for the brass feeding smoothly under the hook as it angles up,...isn't necessarilly done as extractors are produced.

That is why an armorer would assemble each rifle on the bench and check it for function before it was stamped with a cartouche. Its not reshape and redesign the part. Its just that some subtle features are complex and costly to machine when three or four strokes with a file will do.

These days,manufacturing has changed. Old Charlie,his bench,and his file are gone. Every part in the stockroom is supposed to be drop in.

Your Mauser is from Charlie's era.

Maybe you have a local Smith who has some Charlie left in him. Some things just need a different set of eyes to see.

Your Mauser is one of millions. They work. Its some silly simple thing.

[44 AMP]

I got it as a kit in the white from the factory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, a parts kit means the parts have never been assembled and tested as a functional firearm. So, any fitting and tweaking needed to get things to work in on the consumer, alone.

I don't think that is whats happening, ejection is significantly better with an EMPTY magazine. I also swapped the follower spring and follower with those of my other working Mauser, I got the same result.

Try testing without the follower or spring in the gun. It SEEMS to be related to the follower height, both with and without ammo. If ejection is "better" with an empty mag, but not "flawless" then the issue seems to be something related to the follower. Something is creating drag on the fired case so it doesn't fly free when it hits the ejector.

[Moloch]

Yes, parts kit from the factory, never assembled and all parts from the same factory/manufacturer. Most work had to be done on the inside of the magazine box, it was so rough the follower would bind and get stuck, leading to the bolt not picking up rounds every now and then. Polished it to a mirror finish, also smoothed out the edges of the follower. Feeding is now absolutely effortless.

I already tested it without the magazine and without any rounds in the magazine. Ejection is exactly the same in both instances, it only gets worse with a full magazine, and it totally fails when there is cartridge on the left side of the magazine.

[HiBC]

Talk to me about the stock and guard screws.

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Talk to me about the stock and guard screws.

I worked the action outside the stock, it does the exact same thing.

I did a few more tests and this time I caught it. The empty brass case got stuck between the upper receiver wall and the cartridge from the magazine box. I could hold the rifle at any angle and the case would be stuck there, I had to pull out out with my fingers.

[tangolima]

Looks like the cartridge on the right is indeed a bit too high. Is the cartridge already touching the magazine box on the right? Or can you push it further to the right to lower it? Does the cartridge on the right ever jump out of the mag prematurely during feeding?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Looks like the cartridge on the right is indeed a bit too high. Is the cartridge already touching the magazine box on the right? Or can you push it further to the right to lower it? Does the cartridge on the right ever jump out of the mag prematurely during feeding?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

In the above picture the cartridge in the magazine box is on the LEFT side, that's when the ejection issues happen.
Feeding and extraction is excellent, the cartridges sit properly in the magazine.

[tangolima]

Oops. I thought you were showing the pictue when the ejection problem happens. My bad.

In your previous posts, you described the cartridge on the right interfering the egress of the empty. Do you have a picture showing the position of a cartridge on the right relative to the bolt face? I would suggest tracing the head of the empty on the bolt with thin sharpies. It would show how much the the cartridge encroaches upon the empty. In my Spanish mauser there little or no encroachment (1st photo). When the bolt clears the cartridge by about 1/16", ejector comes flush with bolt face to start ejection (2nd photo).

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[44 AMP]

Good catch with the pic in post #34. It clearly shows what is going on, and the problem is clearance.

Looks like the maker in their zeal to make the action "tight" made it a little too tight in the wrong spot. I should have started thinking in that direction when you told us the bolt from your old 98 wouldn't even go into the new action...

Now the question becomes what to do about it. Making changes to the follower so the round or follower itself doesn't interfere MIGHT cause feeding issues, so that seems a poor choice.

From the picture it appears the case is stuck between the round in the mag and the bottom of the upper "rail" of the action, and NOT stuck between the upper and lower edges of the bolt raceway of the action. Is this correct??

Seems like CAREFULLY removing some metal from the upper action should fix the problem...BUT that's something that once done is not easily undone...

IF it were a manufactured rifle you bought, I would send it back and have them fix it. Since it was a kit, this may not be possible. Before doing any (more?) metal work on the action, I'd contact the maker, and see what, if any warranty they have and what, if any work they will do.

Assuming, of course you trust them to do the work and get it right...

Good Luck with your project!

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

From the picture it appears the case is stuck between the round in the mag and the bottom of the upper "rail" of the action, and NOT stuck between the upper and lower edges of the bolt raceway of the action. Is this correct??

Yes, that is correct! The size of the rim of the cartridge is too big to get stuck between the upper & lower bolt ''raceway''. The case is basically held against the ''ceiling'' of the action by the left cartridge in the magazine, at an angle, so basically by the spring tension of the magazine. That explains why it works with an empty magazine or with a round on the right side of the mag.

My plan is to remove material from the upper raceway till the case has enough space to clear the action without getting spring tension from the following cartridge. My rough guess is that I have to remove about 4 thousands.

I already got started with #400 paper wrapped around a wooden dowel and inserted into the rear of the action. I'm not sure if I can make it though, despite what people say about Spanish made guns, the steel is HARD. I worked for 3 hours and it just looks a little smoother. And my fingers are already bloody. I don't have the guts to go in there with a Dremel though.

Returning the kit is something I cannot do though, the kit came with certificate saying it was made in 1971.

[armednfree]

I don't have the guts to go in there with a Dremel though.

I would say minus a milling machine a Dremel would be what you want . Not just the Dremel motor but the wand with it. Use a course then fine stones. Your bolt ways are rough enough that there is no worry if you occasionally tap the bottom and leave a fine swirl.

I would get a magnifier and work under that.


I would open the bolt so that round in in that position, jammed. I would mark TDC on the case and on the frame. Then I would pull the case out and set it on top of the round in the magazine on those reference points. I would use a fine felt pen and mark along the rim facing the bolt where it touches the rail. conversely you could use some Machinist's Blue Layout Fluid and a sharp carbide scribe. Then I would move the case forward until the edge of the rim is lined up with the reference mark keeping the top line even with the top of the rail. Mark the left edge of the case head. Dremel that slot out starting with a course stone and going to a fine near the end. make sure you just barely take the line. Do not let it over heat, stop often and possibly put a wet rag under it.

If you can't get to an ares to mark it you may have to use some spotting blue on the case head.

Not a job for someone who is indeterminate or twitchy.

[Moloch]

So I DID a dremel job on the action. First I nearly got a heart attack from having to remove so much material and by the roughness of the dremeled' surface, but fortunately I got it all mirror smooth with a lot of sandpaper and patience. Now the case is no longer squished against the receiver ''ceiling'' by the rounds in the magazine during ejection.

The bad news is, it didn't help at all. Well, the cases no longer get stuck like in the video, now they just fall back into the action. The weird thing is, now if I cycle live cartridges instead of cases it ejects them nicely. The extra weight at the front (projectile) somehow helps them eject out of the receiver.

I'm about to give up.

[Smoke & Recoil]

I just looked at my (2) Mauser actions and on both...the ejector protrudes
near an 1/8th" out of the face of the bolt.

[4V50 Gary]

The dreaded dremel tool again.

It's an ejection issue, not a feeding issue. It may require removing up to .400" from the rear of the receiver bridge (where the cartridge case is striking it) for greater clearance for a full length cartridge. Brownells used to sell a longer extractor but no longer. That can be made with a piece of steel and a file.

[pwc]

Since the xtractor is a non cpmplicated piece, and you have tried everything except casting the bones under a full moon, couldnt you make one longer so it will engage the case sooner after clearing the chamber?

Use the one you have for a pattern except longer, break all edges, and trim as necessary

[Moloch]

So I carefully inspected everything again, and I found the issue the rifle is having now. Right now, the cases no longer get stuck between magazine rounds and the ceiling of the receiver during ejection because I removed enough material.

What it does is when the cartridges in the box magazine are pushed forward as much as the length of the magazine box allows, it creates a gap between the rear magazine box wall and the cartridges. This happens when you shoot from the recoil anyway, inertia will move the rounds in the magazine forward.
Now, if the upmost cartridge is on the left side, the brass case is ejected it will get caught a little in the gap between the rounds in the magazine, lose enough energy to hit a dead stop and roll back into the system.
This does NOT happen with a round on the right side of the magazine because the rear of the brass case has enough space. And it wont happen if the topmost cartridge is pushed all the way back so it contacts the rear magazine wall.

I have no idea how to fix THAT.

Here is the gap I am talking about. The bolt is at the exact spot where the ejector starts to engage, and the round are pushed forward as much as the magazine box allows. However, a smaller gap will result in a jam.



Here in comparison my K98k, it looks exactly the same, but it will not jam.

[tangolima]

So the case head just fall out of the bolt face a little and into that gap? The case head needs to stay within the bolt face all the time. It sounds still like a extractor fit issue. The extractor claw should be shaped to retain the case head on the bolt face.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by tangolima

So the case head just fall out of the bolt face a little and into that gap? The case head needs to stay within the bolt face all the time. It sounds still like a extractor fit issue. The extractor claw should be shaped to retain the case head on the bolt face.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

The case does stay on the bolt until it hits the rearward position, its just that the case is ejected at a slight upwards angle that allows the case head to dip slightly into the gap that decelerates it. The extractor holds the case very firmly.

This problem persists even when I swap the bolt with that of my K98k that does NOT have the problem.

I do not know what forces the rear of the case downwards during ejection. As mentioned before, I replaced every single part but the receiver, trigger and the barrel and the problem persisted.

This is what happens. I simulated the problem using a felt wad for the proper angle. The angle looks much steeper than it is on the photo, in reality its like 10-15 degrees.

[Smoke & Recoil]

By chance...do you have the follower in backwards ?, the reason that I ask is because the
cartridge the left of your troubled action appears to be to high.

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by Smoke & Recoil

By chance...do you have the follower in backwards ?, the reason that I ask is because the
cartridge the left of your troubled action appears to be to high.

You know what, I think you are right! I set my two Mausers side by side, the rounds in my my German k98k definitely protrude less into the action than on my Spanish 7x57 mauser.
It might be enough to cause that issue I am having. I'd say its about 0.08''

It would also explain why switching all the other parts back and forth did nothing, the feed lips may bee too thin or something.

[Unclenick]

That's a good catch. It appears to me that as the ejector forces the case off the surface of the bolt face, the higher cartridge in the magazine is pushing up against it, causing it to pivot at the point of contact with the receiver.

If the follower isn't reversed, there is another suggestion here.