are reloads +P

goochster · June 22, 2015, 12:59 PM

Are reloads considered +P ammo? Most guns I see the warrantee doen't like reloads?? Is there a reason behind that??

jwrowland77 · June 22, 2015, 01:00 PM

No they're not. There is +P data out there to be found. One word: Lawyers.

chris in va · June 22, 2015, 01:09 PM

The average reloader is not a professional and lacks the fancy factory machines that (usually) watch for consistency. Brass is all the same, powder charge and many other factors are automated and QC'ed on a regular basis.

We have the option to play with different powders, charges and bullet weights. Some guns don't work well with these experiments and the manufacturer voids the free warranty. You can still send it in but they will charge you for it.

**44 AMP** · June 22, 2015, 03:25 PM

+P is a label that ONLY applies to ammo pressure measured against SAAMI specs. It does not exist for all ammo, or all calibers, only for some specific ones.

And the reason you see warranties that say they don't cover reloads is very simple. The gunmaker has no control (and no idea) WHAT you are going to put in the handload. Therefore, they are not going to warranty damage caused by your reloads. Period.

As an extreme example, you could, put a blasting cap, or nitroglycerin inside a case, and fire it. Should the gun maker then be liable for your idiocy?

They put it in the warranty, no reloads, so they don't constantly have to keep going to court to prove they were not the ones at fault.

Its not that they don't think we can make safe ammo, they know we can. But they also know that someone who does not, will try to blame them, when they are not the ones who are at fault. SO, to protect themselves from the firearms versions of ambulance chasing lawyers, you get the blanket "no reloads" warranty coverage.

goochster · June 22, 2015, 06:38 PM

so if I follow my lyman guide for my 9mm my loads really won't be of concern unless the starting grains might be light to operate the gun. I realize that if I loaded say a triple load and blew up my gun it really wouldn't or even expect the manufacturer to warranty the product BUT then there are those that abuse and would try and sue, They come from a different mold

Slamfire · June 22, 2015, 07:15 PM

One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+, sometimes it is intentional, and sometimes it is not. The pressure curve is exponential and it does not take much to shift that curve a tiny bit and create huge pressures. Humans don't think in exponential terms, so, they don't intuitively understand the risks with exponential processes.

I have met a number of nuts at the range who were bragging how their loads were several grains over max. Pity the poor gun manufacturer who designs their firearm to a load. All firearms are designed to a load, the pressures inside the chamber are converted from pounds per inch, to pounds, by taking into account the surface area. This load is based on industry agreements, that is SAAMI, which sets maximum cartridge pressures. The firearm is built around this, plus safety factors, and shipped out to a reloader who totally disregards pressure limits and assumes that the pressure curve reacts linearly to charge weight.

Then there are careful reloaders who have accidents. Since we are all human, all make errors, hey, it happens. In fact, if you have been noticing, factories make errors which occasionally blow up firearms. But, unlike the home reloader, they have the ability to test pressures, so the high pressure cartridges are due to process errors, not ignorance.

I sat across the breakfast table, on travel, from a guy who was an executive at Dan Wesson firearms. He said every pistol that came back blown up was due to reloads.

Something else that seemed to be totally ignored in the shooting community is the effect of fatigue. Sure the firearm can withstand a couple of high pressure loads, (if you are lucky), but overstressing the materials reduces the service life of the part. Overstressed parts will fatigue fracture sooner than non overstressed parts. I have posted in a couple of threads about this and generally the response is that no one believes in fatigue fracture failure. Everyone believes in the big badda boom, an overpressure condition that is large enough to blow the gun into pieces, but no one seems to believe that a part with an overstress history can fail with a standard load.

It can happen to guns because guns are not immune to the laws of physics nor to the physical properties of materials.

jmr40 · June 22, 2015, 07:40 PM

If you choose to shoot re-loads in your firearms and blow up the gun, you own all the pieces. If you are shooting factory loads and your gun blows up you may well likely get some compensation from either the gun maker or ammo maker unless they prove you did something else that caused the problem. Such as having a barrel obstruction.

Shooting only light loads doesn't necessarily mean they are any safer than loads near max. It is your quality control that matters. It is easy to double charge very light loads and not notice until your gun blows. When working with mid-level or upper end loads you're much more likely to notice something isn't right if you screw up and try to double charge a case.

JimmyR · June 23, 2015, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goochster

so if I follow my lyman guide for my 9mm my loads really won't be of concern unless the starting grains might be light to operate the gun. I realize that if I loaded say a triple load and blew up my gun it really wouldn't or even expect the manufacturer to warranty the product BUT then there are those that abuse and would try and sue, They come from a different mold

Technically, shooting any reloads in your firearm will invalidate the warranty. Now, let's presume you shoot your reloads, and develop an unrelated problem that requires you to send your firearm back to the manufacturer for some TLC. Some companies, if they know you used reloads, will not make the repair, or charge you for it, since you did, in fact, invalidate the warranty. Other companies won't worry too much about it unless you really toasted the gun. Be careful, and realize that the money you save by shooting reloaded ammo may end up going to replacing your weapon.

745SW · June 23, 2015, 06:18 PM

I think the OP is asking whether reloads mean the same as +P ammo because both are restricted. Reloads are not allowed because of liability. +P is not allowed because the arm wasn't designed for it.

Nick_C_S · June 23, 2015, 08:10 PM

I own a dozen handguns.

I voided the warranty on the first shot with eight of them

hatchettjack · June 23, 2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

I own a dozen handguns.

I voided the warranty on the first shot with eight of them

You da man!

**44 AMP** · June 24, 2015, 11:05 AM

I've had a couple dozen pistols, still have most of them, and the only ones that haven't shot my reloads are all .22LR!

TimSr · June 24, 2015, 12:26 PM

My Freedom Arms .454 Casull is the only gun I've ever heard of that had reloading data packaged with the gun in 1989, and now even carries reloading data on thier website.

I think the answer to the OP's question is that +P is a higher than standard pressure indicator for ammo which your gun must be rated in order to fire safely, and has nothing to do with reloading.

ammo.crafter · June 24, 2015, 12:48 PM

Attorneys, lawsuits, liability. litigation...money awards.

T. O'Heir · June 24, 2015, 12:59 PM

"...Are reloads considered +P ammo?..." Not unless you load with +P data.
Manufacturers are CYAing themselves by voiding their warrantees if you shot reloaded ammo. They have no idea if a customer knows what he's doing and don't want to pay for the law suit. Even a law suit they win costs money and time.
"...One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+..." Only when loaded by some illiterate who refuses to follow the manual he very likely doesn't have. Same guys who say manuals are written by lawyers.

goochster · June 24, 2015, 09:39 PM

so as long as I follow the lyman or other reload data I should be fine and not be making +P loads

McCarthy · June 24, 2015, 10:43 PM

Quote:

so as long as I follow the lyman or other reload data I should be fine and not be making +P loads

If you don't understand a technicality - especially when it's about reloading or firearms in general - you should read up at the sources until YOU understand the matter entirely. Do not rely on only one source, one manual or 'somebody' online.

Start here in order to understand what overpressure loads are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition

Here is the link to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute:

http://www.saami.org/

That is THE source. Read it, research the calibers you are going to reload and print out each PDF spec sheet.

Always double better triple compare load data with other manuals or specs from bullet / powder manufacturers.

m2c

reddog81 · June 24, 2015, 11:14 PM

If you're worried about voiding the warranty than any reloads will void the warranty. Lyman's manual includes +P loads and regular loads. The +P loads are specifically noted.

TimSr · June 25, 2015, 06:55 AM

I think he is more worried about shooting shooting +P in a gun that is not rated for +P.

Lyman's data will clearing show which are +P loads. After reviewing the this thread, and wrongly assuming you were talking about 38 spl, I see that you are talking about 9mm. I highly doubt any reloading data manual will list any "+P" loads for 9mm, or anthing else except for .38spl. as I believe that is the only cartridge for which there is actually a SAAMI standard to define a +P load for it. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways, follow your Lyman's, and you will be good, and you will be under the +P threshhold, unless it it specifically states it is a +P load.

IdahoG36 · June 25, 2015, 08:07 PM

I have seen the warning about reloads voiding the warranty in every owner's manual I've read through. I have always wondered- If your gun is damaged or experiences a kB, how can a firearms manufacturer tell that the round in question was in fact a handloaded or reloaded round?

Obviously if there was a kB or severe damage, I imagine that is the first thing they would suspect. Do they examine the components of the round that are left? Pieces of the casing or primer? I'm just curious how they could prove 100% without a doubt that the round was not factory. Are they able to determine, for example, that the casing was Federal brass and contained a Winchester primer?

I have no issue with this warranty policy. The reason I'm asking is because performing failure analysis is part of my job and I find it interesting.

TimSr · June 26, 2015, 09:00 AM

They cannot tell if its a reload, but they can tell if it is because of ammo, and whether its handloads, or defctive factory ammo, either way, it takes them off the hook as it's not a "defective gun".

**44 AMP** · June 26, 2015, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Do they examine the components of the round that are left? Pieces of the casing or primer? I'm just curious how they could prove 100% without a doubt that the round was not factory. Are they able to determine, for example, that the casing was Federal brass and contained a Winchester primer?

Possibly. On the other hand, as mentioned, all the gun maker really needs to do is determine it was not the gun's fault. And, generally, if it was really a factory round, the shooter will have, and be happy to supply proof, to both the gun and the ammo maker.

Trust me, if a round from R-P, Win, Federal, etc wrecks ANY of my guns, I am not just going to talk to the gun maker, I will be talking to the ammo maker as well.

And they are going to want things like the lot# of the ammo, (the box it came in), where/when you bought it, any unfired rounds from that box, etc.

Oh, and here's something else to consider, by the wording, even if it IS a factory round that wrecks the gun, if you have ever shot reloads the warranty is void. Now, how would they know that? sometimes one can tell.

And even when they can't tell, if they claim it, you have to be able to disprove it.

you may also note that while "no reloads" is standard boilerplate in about all warranties, Ruger doesn't say that.

Because Ruger doesn't give a written warranty anymore. They just stand behind their products.

June 22, 2015, 12:59 PM	#1
goochster Member Join Date: May 29, 2015 Location: wisconsin rapids, wi Posts: 38	are reloads +P Are reloads considered +P ammo? Most guns I see the warrantee doen't like reloads?? Is there a reason behind that??

June 22, 2015, 03:25 PM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	+P is a label that ONLY applies to ammo pressure measured against SAAMI specs. It does not exist for all ammo, or all calibers, only for some specific ones. And the reason you see warranties that say they don't cover reloads is very simple. The gunmaker has no control (and no idea) WHAT you are going to put in the handload. Therefore, they are not going to warranty damage caused by your reloads. Period. As an extreme example, you could, put a blasting cap, or nitroglycerin inside a case, and fire it. Should the gun maker then be liable for your idiocy? They put it in the warranty, no reloads, so they don't constantly have to keep going to court to prove they were not the ones at fault. Its not that they don't think we can make safe ammo, they know we can. But they also know that someone who does not, will try to blame them, when they are not the ones who are at fault. SO, to protect themselves from the firearms versions of ambulance chasing lawyers, you get the blanket "no reloads" warranty coverage. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 22, 2015, 07:15 PM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+, sometimes it is intentional, and sometimes it is not. The pressure curve is exponential and it does not take much to shift that curve a tiny bit and create huge pressures. Humans don't think in exponential terms, so, they don't intuitively understand the risks with exponential processes. I have met a number of nuts at the range who were bragging how their loads were several grains over max. Pity the poor gun manufacturer who designs their firearm to a load. All firearms are designed to a load, the pressures inside the chamber are converted from pounds per inch, to pounds, by taking into account the surface area. This load is based on industry agreements, that is SAAMI, which sets maximum cartridge pressures. The firearm is built around this, plus safety factors, and shipped out to a reloader who totally disregards pressure limits and assumes that the pressure curve reacts linearly to charge weight. Then there are careful reloaders who have accidents. Since we are all human, all make errors, hey, it happens. In fact, if you have been noticing, factories make errors which occasionally blow up firearms. But, unlike the home reloader, they have the ability to test pressures, so the high pressure cartridges are due to process errors, not ignorance. I sat across the breakfast table, on travel, from a guy who was an executive at Dan Wesson firearms. He said every pistol that came back blown up was due to reloads. Something else that seemed to be totally ignored in the shooting community is the effect of fatigue. Sure the firearm can withstand a couple of high pressure loads, (if you are lucky), but overstressing the materials reduces the service life of the part. Overstressed parts will fatigue fracture sooner than non overstressed parts. I have posted in a couple of threads about this and generally the response is that no one believes in fatigue fracture failure. Everyone believes in the big badda boom, an overpressure condition that is large enough to blow the gun into pieces, but no one seems to believe that a part with an overstress history can fail with a standard load. It can happen to guns because guns are not immune to the laws of physics nor to the physical properties of materials. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

June 23, 2015, 08:10 PM	#10
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	I own a dozen handguns. I voided the warranty on the first shot with eight of them __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

June 24, 2015, 11:05 AM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	I've had a couple dozen pistols, still have most of them, and the only ones that haven't shot my reloads are all .22LR! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 22, 2015, 01:00 PM	#2
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	No they're not. There is +P data out there to be found. One word: Lawyers.

June 22, 2015, 01:09 PM	#3
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	The average reloader is not a professional and lacks the fancy factory machines that (usually) watch for consistency. Brass is all the same, powder charge and many other factors are automated and QC'ed on a regular basis. We have the option to play with different powders, charges and bullet weights. Some guns don't work well with these experiments and the manufacturer voids the free warranty. You can still send it in but they will charge you for it.

June 22, 2015, 06:38 PM	#5
goochster Member Join Date: May 29, 2015 Location: wisconsin rapids, wi Posts: 38	so if I follow my lyman guide for my 9mm my loads really won't be of concern unless the starting grains might be light to operate the gun. I realize that if I loaded say a triple load and blew up my gun it really wouldn't or even expect the manufacturer to warranty the product BUT then there are those that abuse and would try and sue, They come from a different mold

June 22, 2015, 07:40 PM	#7
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	If you choose to shoot re-loads in your firearms and blow up the gun, you own all the pieces. If you are shooting factory loads and your gun blows up you may well likely get some compensation from either the gun maker or ammo maker unless they prove you did something else that caused the problem. Such as having a barrel obstruction. Shooting only light loads doesn't necessarily mean they are any safer than loads near max. It is your quality control that matters. It is easy to double charge very light loads and not notice until your gun blows. When working with mid-level or upper end loads you're much more likely to notice something isn't right if you screw up and try to double charge a case.

June 23, 2015, 06:18 PM	#9
745SW Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: California Posts: 776	I think the OP is asking whether reloads mean the same as +P ammo because both are restricted. Reloads are not allowed because of liability. +P is not allowed because the arm wasn't designed for it.

June 24, 2015, 12:26 PM	#13
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	My Freedom Arms .454 Casull is the only gun I've ever heard of that had reloading data packaged with the gun in 1989, and now even carries reloading data on thier website. I think the answer to the OP's question is that +P is a higher than standard pressure indicator for ammo which your gun must be rated in order to fire safely, and has nothing to do with reloading.

June 24, 2015, 12:48 PM	#14
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	+P Attorneys, lawsuits, liability. litigation...money awards. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

June 24, 2015, 12:59 PM	#15
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Are reloads considered +P ammo?..." Not unless you load with +P data. Manufacturers are CYAing themselves by voiding their warrantees if you shot reloaded ammo. They have no idea if a customer knows what he's doing and don't want to pay for the law suit. Even a law suit they win costs money and time. "...One heck of a lot of reloads are +P+..." Only when loaded by some illiterate who refuses to follow the manual he very likely doesn't have. Same guys who say manuals are written by lawyers. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 24, 2015, 09:39 PM	#16
goochster Member Join Date: May 29, 2015 Location: wisconsin rapids, wi Posts: 38	so as long as I follow the lyman or other reload data I should be fine and not be making +P loads

June 24, 2015, 11:14 PM	#18
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	If you're worried about voiding the warranty than any reloads will void the warranty. Lyman's manual includes +P loads and regular loads. The +P loads are specifically noted.

June 25, 2015, 06:55 AM	#19
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	I think he is more worried about shooting shooting +P in a gun that is not rated for +P. Lyman's data will clearing show which are +P loads. After reviewing the this thread, and wrongly assuming you were talking about 38 spl, I see that you are talking about 9mm. I highly doubt any reloading data manual will list any "+P" loads for 9mm, or anthing else except for .38spl. as I believe that is the only cartridge for which there is actually a SAAMI standard to define a +P load for it. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, follow your Lyman's, and you will be good, and you will be under the +P threshhold, unless it it specifically states it is a +P load.

June 25, 2015, 08:07 PM	#20
IdahoG36 Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 2,993	I have seen the warning about reloads voiding the warranty in every owner's manual I've read through. I have always wondered- If your gun is damaged or experiences a kB, how can a firearms manufacturer tell that the round in question was in fact a handloaded or reloaded round? Obviously if there was a kB or severe damage, I imagine that is the first thing they would suspect. Do they examine the components of the round that are left? Pieces of the casing or primer? I'm just curious how they could prove 100% without a doubt that the round was not factory. Are they able to determine, for example, that the casing was Federal brass and contained a Winchester primer? I have no issue with this warranty policy. The reason I'm asking is because performing failure analysis is part of my job and I find it interesting.

June 26, 2015, 09:00 AM	#21
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	They cannot tell if its a reload, but they can tell if it is because of ammo, and whether its handloads, or defctive factory ammo, either way, it takes them off the hook as it's not a "defective gun".