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Old June 17, 2010, 06:07 PM   #1
Brit
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The Warrior mind set, is thinking too slow?

Discussion on the Warrior Mind Set.

What I am referring too, is training a person, or group, to respond to a threat, but a group who are from a part of the City/World, that violence, fighting, is not in their lives.

I spent 5 years as a bouncer (we would say Doorman! Posh) 1960 till 64, The Cavern Club, of The Beatles time, got stabbed twice there, and a year at The Blue Angel on Seal Street, in Liverpool 8. This was Liverpool UK.

After you had been in a few fights, no thought was quick enough, thinking took to much time, was too slow.
You had to respond subconsciously.

A young man tried to kill me with a home made Ice Pick kind of weapon, He thrust this at my sternum, my wrist took it. I had been working at the Cavern for a couple of years then, if that had been week two, not year two, I would have been dead.

I think one way to describe this, the Warrior Mindset is kind of close, is this, every one is connected, almost like we all have connections to each other, when dealing with body part strikes, fist/feet/knees/elbows/head butts, or hand held weapons, knives, clubs, chains, things of that nature, people around you move, so do you.

These movements are mostly subconscious, you need to have been in many of these situations to develop this, some never do, and quit before they are hurt badly (or after they are) body language is so important, you need to learn to master that very soon.

The turn of a foot, twist of hip, dip of a shoulder. These are all tell tales, the ones who miss these, tend to sport bent beaks early on, at 74 mine is still straight!

In this PC society we live in, how do you teach this is my question, I have it, but not from these times. From the 60s, in a tough City.

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Old June 17, 2010, 06:52 PM   #2
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What?
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Old June 17, 2010, 07:17 PM   #3
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Are you talking about recognizing a threat, countering it, or both ? I disagree about the "thinking" but that might be a personal thing.
I was also a bouncer for awhile, but always did double duty as either a bartender or DJ.
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Old June 17, 2010, 08:32 PM   #4
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I have no idea what PC world you are talking about. Our military teaches the warrior mindset quite well, as does yours. I seem to recall a squad of one of the Highland regiments running low on ammo and doing a bayonet charge against some Iraqis within the last few years. I seem to remember they took out 37 with cold steel. Our crime rates here, and for that matter across the pond, are worse now than in the early 60's. Our southern border is a war zone plain an simple. Drunks in bars are no nicer now either. Warrior institutions teach well, as does experience. Just like before. Some are warriors, some can be taught to be, and there are always some that just aren't.
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Old June 17, 2010, 08:36 PM   #5
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Please rewrite your thread title to reflect the actual subject of your post.
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Old June 17, 2010, 08:37 PM   #6
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What video game does this belong to?
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Old June 17, 2010, 10:13 PM   #7
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May I recommend the book Meditations on Violence.
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Old June 17, 2010, 11:55 PM   #8
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Don't bogart that doobie.....

Are you taking tactical warrior or barroom fighter? Two entirely different mind sets.
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Old June 18, 2010, 12:05 AM   #9
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Depends on the warrior. The only proper mindset is to win at all costs. All think this way but go about it differently. Some have lines drawn where others wouldn't think twice about crossing. Your mindset should be to win, any other thoughts do indeed take too long and that is why we train.

Repeat, repeat, and repeat again until it becomes second nature.
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Old June 18, 2010, 12:12 AM   #10
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I don't even know how to respond to this.........We live in a different era.
Using your head is what keeps you out of trouble.If your not using your head
and diving in without thinking,your bound for jail.

also most of what you said seemed gibberish,made no sense.
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Old June 18, 2010, 12:17 AM   #11
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I recall an incident that was in the Sacramento, California newspapers back in the 1970's. A guy was awaken at night by noise in his garage. He got up and went into the hallway from his bedroom, only to see the figure of a man at the other end of the hall. He immediately attacked the figure and as he grabbed the intruder a gunshot lit the hall and a bullet grazed his side.

The story, as it unfolded, was this guy was paid to kill this guy, but he was in the wrong house. When I read that story I recall thinking, 'Boy had that been my house I'd be dead.' I would have uttered sopmething like, 'What are you doing in my house ?' The gunshot would not have grazed my side. The original victim was inside the intruders arm length by the time the intruder got his gun up.

Now that might be what the OP is suggesting. Acting to the situation without taking the time to analyze it, or question the 'Givens' ... just act. I suppose the OP also implies that training, and/or experience results in more correct responses, as opposed to incorrect responses. This seems reasonable to me, as I think, 'Practice makes permanent.'
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Old June 18, 2010, 05:52 AM   #12
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My first thought is, "Is a nightclub bouncer a warrior?" Followed by what does being street smart have to do with being a warrior. "Warrior" and "war fighter" are new buzzwords and as such, no longer have any meaning, if they ever did. However, I understand your point. Only it doesn't have anything to do with being a warrior. Read Cooper's book.

There are always some contradictions that show up in discussions like that, when, say, the original post mentions that most people anymore have no experience with violence, followed up a few replies later with someone saying that the world is much more violent than it used to be and we have lost our innocence, etc., etc., etc.

So, which is it?

I don't think the world is any more violent that it used to be and also that people did not necessarily live with more violence in the past or resort to it any more. That isn't the same as saying that people's reactions to it or more importantly, official reaction to it isn't different. We pretty much live in a police state nowadays anyway. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing since so many on this forum are interested in police work.

Is being exposed to less violence a good thing or a bad thing? It isn't clear in the original post.

Real warriors, I suppose, are people in the army and the marines. A draftee is as much of a warrior as a volunteer or enlistee--or graduate of a military academy (like VMI as well as West Point). (OK, like the Citadel, too). Napoleon's Grand Armee was mostly conscripts. They turned the old idea of the military upside down for a few years before ultimately returning to pretty much what they had before. But the army that was raised for the hundred days and was defeated at Waterloo was mostly volunteer, more or less. Today, by the way, is the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo.

Then there are warriors like Indian Warriors and Japanese samurai, both of whom were certainly real warriors but had codes of conduct that we simply wouldn't understand without a lot of effort. The samurai operated in a society that was incredibly rigid whereas the American Indian was just the opposite but there's no way an Indian warrior would ever not be considered a warrior.

But were they street smart? You can be street smart without being a warrior, I think.
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Old June 18, 2010, 06:16 AM   #13
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I also wanted to say that the warrior mentality has no place in police work. That seems to be an unfortunate trend in police circles, for some police more than others, to think of themselves as something other than civilian, they are at war on crime, etc. But they aren't military. They are civilian. There is no war. If so, are we the enemy?
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Old June 18, 2010, 06:31 AM   #14
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Brit, I think you are confused about "warrior mind set" then also about the roll of thinking in combat.

The skill of using/having muscle memory applied to martial arts (versus muscle memory for a labor-based job) is not warrior mindset, nor is your body parts being connected to you and you connected to people.

The warrior mindset is basically the mental commitment to the primary object of survival in conflict.

Quote:
In this PC society we live in, how do you teach this is my question,
No, your question is if thinking is too slow.
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Old June 18, 2010, 07:04 AM   #15
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Back ground

45Gunner

The Cavern was not a Bar, no booze.

It was a night Club? Closest description, we were paid to protect the kids, 15YOA and up to maybe 18 (Made up to look 25!) from the adult males, the ones who took their wedding rings off to enjoy their evening.

We separated those at the door (If we had of had a door!) stopped them, therein lay the threat.

Our Club, The Cavern was really the only place kids could go, all the other Clubs had drinking licenses, and memberships.

The same problem for kids then, as now, no were to go! You have heard that lament before have you not.

Coupled with the fact Liverpool was, and is, a large Seaport, the night was full of threats to this age of kids, like New York was, and is.

I did not smoke or drink, worked a 44 hour week at a full time job, and three nights Thur/Fri/Sat; to support a young Family.

After the football games, (you call it Soccer) multiple assailants was the norm, no guns, knives were not that prevalent, but were there, IE I was stabbed twice.

If you went to the ground, you had every chance to loose teeth, or an eye.

That part of my life gave me the building blocks to take into the Security and Police weapons training I taught for 23 years. This was an era when the Self defense, in track suits, and gun guys never mixed the gym with the range, the 80s! Boots in the Gym. Sacrilege!

It was only later, many years later, reading of the Fight or Flight syndrome that I fully understood the emotions we experienced, a backward way of learning, if you would.

Recommended reading. No not recommended, essential!

"Sharpening the Warrior's Edge". by Bruce K. Siddle

"On Killing". By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
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Old June 18, 2010, 08:43 AM   #16
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My opinion is that "warrior mind set" is not essential to personal survival, although combative skills and the willingness to overcome and survive certainly do apply. "Warrior mind set" sells books and magazine articles to wannabes.

If survival is the objective, running away or hiding is a great option. Teaching a threatened person to fight like a cornered rat if running away is not possible is fine. However, "warrior mind set" precludes running away, and therefore may not promote survival.

Warriors are persons who are skilled in the management of violence to resolve conflicts between groups, and who subsequently acquire fighting skills and attitudes as core personality traits.

Effective warriors are survivors, but personal survival is not the warrior's central concern. Rather, the warrior's principal purpose is to place his or her body between a threat and the group whose collective welfare is his or her responsibility. Usually this group is one to which he owes allegiance (e.g.; family, comrades-in-arms, community). Running away (the "duty to retreat" found in law that is normally required of the ordinary citizen) is not an option for the warrior, and in fact could be punished by the group. Conversely, the citizen who does not retreat when threatened may also be punished.

Several classes of people may have fighting skills. Warriors (cops, military) fight. Brawlers fight. Athletes (boxers, hockey players, footballers, etc.) fight in a formalized, symbolic way. Cornered mammals of any species fight when trapped by predators.

Warriors engage in violence for a purpose larger than themselves. Brawlers fight because they are addicted to the physical and emotional sensations they experience when in conflict. Sports figures are merely gladiators, engaging in physical conflict or competition for our entertainment, and their personal aggrandizement. Cornered mammals fight because they must.

The warrior is the only one who has a duty to fight. The citizen in the "PC" society does not.

Warrior mind set is romantic hype as it applies to survival training, and the name of the game is survival. The average citizen should focus on survival skills: avoid, evade, escape, fight as a last resort.
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Old June 18, 2010, 09:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
The same problem for kids then, as now, no were to go! You have heard that lament before have you not.
The problem is not that they have no where to go. It's that they have nothing to do. Child labor laws should be relaxed so that non-productive kids can get their butts in the fields and factories and make some money for themselves and their families. Then you Brits and us Americans wouldn't need to rely on immigrant labor.
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Old June 18, 2010, 11:34 AM   #18
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Is this firearms related?
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Old June 18, 2010, 12:28 PM   #19
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Old June 18, 2010, 01:16 PM   #20
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Murdock

An unusual start to a training session.... Loaded pistols securely holstered, belts tight, and boot laces tight.

Range door closed facing 4 targets, 4 on the line, 4 behind those 4.

"Ear muffs off" "Wait for the go command" "When I say go" "Run to your vehicles, touch with your Ear Muffs, and back to the line".... "GO"

When they all come back, puffing and panting, give the firing commands.

"The first part of that exercise" running away! Nothing wrong with that.
"The second part, shooting out of breath" That is part of training. Nothing wrong with running away, if that is the right course of action, unless it is personal, running away and leaving my Wife, it ain't happening.
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Old June 18, 2010, 03:11 PM   #21
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Good post, Murdoch. But the last post reminds me of a comment by Horace Kephart. He, I think, had invited someone along to watch one of those long range single shot rifle competitions popular before WWI. He thought his friend would be impressed. Instead he said, "If it weren't for the smoke and the noise, this would be quite the lady's game." Kephart was a little let down but was forced to agree that it was nothing at all like hunting.

Does the original poster believe there is any relationship between being a bouncer and a warrior? Or am I missing something entirely?
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Old June 18, 2010, 04:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
"If it weren't for the smoke and the noise, this would be quite the lady's game."
Chortle! Guns are a way to turn money into noise.

Quote:
Does the original poster believe there is any relationship between being a bouncer and a warrior? Or am I missing something entirely?
I guess that's for him to say. An effective bouncer would have good combative skills and superior situational awareness, which I think he articulates.

He does a somewhat rambling analysis of how routine exposure to pending violence taught him to read warning signs such as body language, which is a critical survival skill. I interpret his main idea to be that with sufficient exposure to nasty situations, one learns to analyze developing danger subconsciously, thereby avoiding the need to take the time to consider a situation consciously before reacting to it. "Southnarc," among others, teaches how to read such signs (he calls then "cues") in his extreme close quarters gunfighting classes.

The OP also articulates in a later post that his job was to preserve a place of safety for young persons to socialize without fear of predation. He also discusses a role in training police, etc. in those combative and awareness skills. So, yeah, I think he makes a case for at least one bouncer -- himself -- as a warrior.

And yes, IMO if you carry a gun this discussion of recognition of impending interpersonal violence and how to react to it quickly in a normally peaceful society is gun related.
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Old June 18, 2010, 04:44 PM   #23
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Imo, you don’t have to be a warrior to have (or use) a "warrior mindset"… but that may just speak to what I think of as the warrior mindset … constantly thinking : observing and evaluating those you meet, the surroundings and how they can be used, weighing advantages and disadvantages of different courses of action within the environment … all with the purpose of maximizing the ability to use of your strengths against "their" weaknesses. Admittedly, most of this is done before a fight physically begins, but for someone with the "warrior mindset" the fight began (and if his thinking was correct, the fight’s outcome was predestined) before the threat presented itself as such. The greatest strength of the "warrior mindset" is in operating by a set of principles that the "warrior" recognizes is greater than his self interest but only rarely do the two conflict … because the principles are so much a part of him. To win; both the for the good of himself and the good of those principles, is the object. All else is failure. A personal failure is a noble sacrifice if the principles were upheld in the process.

I don’t like the term "warrior mindset". It’s too flashy and sounds like those using it are always looking for a fight when the opposite is usually true … since the greatest victory is when you win without a fight, and the greater strength you achieve, the more "forgiving" you are able to be.

a way of approaching life, imho .. whether in fighting, debating, or conducting business in the free market. The two books I would recommend are The Art of War, and The Book of Five Rings … and observing the "principles of operation" behind the tactics described.
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Old June 27, 2010, 06:03 AM   #24
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A different place

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[QUOTEGood post, Murdoch. But the last post reminds me of a comment by Horace Kephart. He, I think, had invited someone along to watch one of those long range single shot rifle competitions popular before WWI. He thought his friend would be impressed. Instead he said, "If it weren't for the smoke and the noise, this would be quite the lady's game." Kephart was a little let down but was forced to agree that it was nothing at all like hunting.

Does the original poster believe there is any relationship between being a bouncer and a warrior? Or am I missing something entirely?
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It is hard to balance a Liverpool in the early 1960s, and the USA of today, or even a few years ago. Being a warrior (Vague term) is a mind set, the mind set of an individual.

The football crowd, with beer in belly were terrible then, more so now!

They came out to fight, and we obliged, so forget the movie notions of two big men dragging some one out of a Club/Pub. Our altercations took place in the door, or in Mathew St. (pronounced Matt-you)

Little old me at 5'9" and 190 did not fit that mold in any way shape or form.

So in trying to explain this concept, I seemed to have left my self open to ridicule, not to worry.

Any posts that are made, by any one, can be attacked, but if one part of an honest statement can be used to pass on a means to help win a common or garden fight, that can not be so bad, yes?

Back in 1995 I was a Guest Speaker of The Georgia Assoc; of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, just prior to the Olympics, 266 of Georgia's finest were in attendance. My certificate (Plaque) of appreciation sits on the wall in front of me now.

My standing ovation came from having met the Beatles on many occasions more than anything else! But my warnings in dealing with liquored up Brits did not fall on deaf ears, not from reading it in a book, the Liverpool Kiss (Head Butt) could be avoided.


I sent an email to Murdock, (Scottish?) did your spam blocker block same?
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Our Club, The Cavern was really the only place kids could go, all the other Clubs had drinking licenses, and memberships.

The same problem for kids then, as now, no were to go! You have heard that lament before have you not.

I don’t buy that excuse. Never have an never will. As parents we have the responsibility to protect our children, not some “warrior” in a nightclub. Those children should never be allowed in an environment like that. No place to go? Hogwash! Take you children places. Spend time with your children. Don’t pawn your kids off on someone else. Take responsibility as a parent. Take them to church. Take them to Bible study. Go bicycle riding. Teach them how to ride a motorcycle, then take them out to the country and go dirt bike riding. Teach them firearms safety. Take them to a range with a couple of .22’s and shoot all day long for $30. I do all of the above, and then some. There are plenty of things a parent can do to keep their kids out of bad situations. If you can’t be a parent, then don’t have children. But no, in today’s society it’s so much simpler to give teen aged children a few dollars and shove them out the door for the evening. Never mind how evil the outside world is, never mind the trouble that’s lurking around every street corner, send them out because you’re too damn lazy to be a parent. That’s the reason this world is so eff’ed up right now. I’ve got three children, two daughters and a son. Both daughters made it to age 19 as virgins. Society today would laugh at that. I’m damn proud of it. How did my wife and I do it? By doing what I wrote above. Spend some time with your kids, their youth goes by quickly, before you know it they are adults. Do you want to raise them and protect them, or is it just fine for the “night club warrior” to raise and protect them? Okay, I’ll climb down off my soap box. I apologize if I offended anyone. But it truly bothers me. Thank you.
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