Home Defense 870

AC's & 45's · June 21, 2001, 07:09 PM

Does Remington still make the 870 Home Defense model?
I don't see it listed on their website. I am looking for a short, legal replacement barrel that will match my Express's matte finish.
I don't want to modify my full size barrel.
I want to build my own custom home defense 870. I am partial to a bead or no front sight for this purpose. I am not even sure a " Home Defense 870" barrel will even fit my Express receiver. I once heard that the HD 870 was built around the "Special Purpose" model. Correct me if I am wrong but, I don't beleive the Express, and Special Purpose are interchangable.

This is my new project. I just inherited my Dad's old model Wingmaster. Now I don't see the rather ugly Express doin much hunting or clay bustin. It has found a new purpose in life.

rugerfreak · June 21, 2001, 08:48 PM

It's still there on the website----Go to the express shotguns-----says Exp Syn then 18in barrel underneath it. All 870's are interchangeable within guage---with the possible exceptions of the Super Mag and the LT 20????. The 870 HD is part of the Express line. The problem with the newer Express's for defense use is the magazine tube---there are indentations in it that make it hard to increase magazine capacity. Mossberg makes some reasonably priced barrels for the 870 too.

Dave McC · June 22, 2001, 06:48 AM

AC, The Express and Special Purpose models,and almost all 870s, are interchangeable within gauge.

The SPECIAL FIELD, a variant attempt to produce an upland shotgun, has some parts that do not interchange, including bbls. I think that's what you're thinking of.

And kudoes for not cutting down your Dad's Wingmaster. I did that, and regret it bitterly ever since.

OTOH, many police oriented gun shops have old riot bbls lying around, a few phone calls may find you one in decent condition with a finish that matches your heirloom.

DO use a bead sight or whatever, if it comes to ligitation post-crisis you don't want to give the opposition anything to pick at. Besides, HD shotguns get aimed for best results.

ljlcdl · June 22, 2001, 04:00 PM

"DO use a bead sight or whatever, if it comes to ligitation post-crisis you don't want to give the opposition anything to pick at." If you miss your target your sights won't matter in court, you still missed. If you hit your target, it won't matter in court. Use a bead sight because the purpose of shooting is to hit the target and the bead sight helps.

Get over this "looking bad in court" stuff. Very little of it corresponds to reality or comes from credible sources. (Nothing personal, Dave. Just an empirical observation.)

ljlc

Josh · June 23, 2001, 03:51 AM

ljlcdl, I'm not sure in a home defense situation that a bead sight would make any difference with respect to ligitation. I agree with you that one should stack the odds in his favor and don't give the DA anything to use but as I see it you are either justified using deadly force or you aren't. If you have a bead or not and you are not justified using DF then you are in a real bad fix. If you are justified the only thing you have to worry about is the civil sharks coming after you.

ArmedPatriot · June 23, 2001, 04:50 AM

I've got an 870 Express with the rifle sights, and I've left the range with a blue-green shoulder enough times that I'm confident of what shots I can take and what shots I can't. If anyone tries anything stupid in my house, they'll leave feet first.

Having said that, I would NEVER engage a target in an unjustified, or even questionable situation. However, if the time comes, I'll respond to the threat and have a clear and precise explanation for each round fired.

From a legal standpoint, it can only help if you can cite professional training in marksmanship, tactics, and the legal aspect of defending yourself and your property.

The 870 is an excellent HD weapon. In addition to creating the world's single scariest sound in a dark room (ka-chick-chunck), it's as deadly a close-range weapon as you'll ever need. Check your patterns at 7, 10, and 25m with your load of choice -- practice, practice, and practice some more -- and you're ready for all but the hardest targets. Body armor won't stop a head shot, and with 00 buck you're moving about as much lead per second as an automatic weapon.

Back to the original topic, I haven't done the tactical shotgun thing with other sight patterns, but if it's good enough to bag a fast bird (or clay) at 25-50m or more, it sure oughtta work in HD situations with slower moving targets at far closer ranges...

- AP

Kharn · June 23, 2001, 08:38 AM

How about instead of buying a riot barrel, buy a 20" rifle sighted barrel instead. Remington makes them in IC and rifled, at HD distances choke doesnt matter and the rifle sights will look better in court. "Your honor, I heard my door being broken in, so I grabbed my deer gun and went to see what was going on." I doubt a prosecutor could turn your deer gun around on you, but they could have lots of fun if you used a "riot" barrel. You can also get an 8 shot extension instead of 7.

Kharn

Dave McC · June 23, 2001, 09:25 AM

ljlcdl. the last time I was in Federal Court,and in Md Criminal Court also,the opposition wanted to bring in everything.They cited my rural upbringing as "Proof" I was a bigot,my longtime interest in target shooting as "Proof" I was just aching to kill somebody(Preferably a minority group member inferred), and my military service as "Proof" I was another wacked out Vet with problems.BTW, the incident leading to all of this involved no firearms, having been dealt with inside a prison, and not outside or on the perimeter.

My personal atty is a former Asst State's Atty and also a former PD.His advice included not giving them anything at all to build on,or a diversion. He did say that when in court, one's whole life is subject to scrutiny, and how well one defends oneself includes the legal stuff also.

For the Fed case, my expert witness list included two psychologists,a forensic pathologist and a Asst Prof of Law.

Point is, one doesn't give the opposition ANYTHING.

STEVE M · June 23, 2001, 12:27 PM

Dave, thanks for the first hand experiance, sorry you had to go through it though. I get tired of people saying that the legal problems that we are warned about never happen. My own feeling has always been better safe than sorry (sorta why I carry a gun to begin with

JNewell · June 23, 2001, 08:25 PM

Just to chime in, the 20" IC barrel is a fine idea (current police 870s are shipped with IC), but the rifled barrel is not a good idea with shot of any kind. You'll get a pattern that is very eratic and in a defensive situation you are likely either to hit something you didn't mean to or to fail to hit something that the defense emergency demands you hit forthwith. At typical civilian defensive ranges, pattern matters a lot and yes, the shotgun needs to be aimed. For defensive purposes, stick with a smoothbore.

Guyon · June 26, 2001, 02:06 PM

Saw 870 HDs at my local gun show this weekend for $279. Also saw something I hadn't seen before--a factory installed magazine extension on an 870 HD. I think those were going for $299. I almost picked one up, but the store that had them was local, so I may just pay a visit to that shop and look around.

AC's & 45's · June 27, 2001, 01:02 PM

I'd like to come across one of those factory extensions.

Looks like I may go with the Advanced technologies extention.

What do you guys reccommend for extrensions various other and tactical accessories?

DAVID NANCARROW · June 27, 2001, 01:20 PM

All this litigation stuff is exactly why I have a bone stock 870 Express with nothing added and nothing removed. If 4 loads of 3 inch 00 Buck doesn't get it done, my 45 is right next to me with 4 loaded mags, also stock except a replacement barrel bushing. No night sights, no flashlight hanging off the end, no red dots, no extensions, no ghost rings. My modified stuff is all locked up in the safe.

DAVID NANCARROW · June 27, 2001, 02:24 PM

Easy to take care of. The flashlight is hand held rather than mounted to the firearm, and a person taking a shot at anything they are not certain of should face consequences.

Dave McC · June 27, 2001, 02:35 PM

AC,I suggest going slow on the addons. A stock short barreled 870 right out of the box is a terrific CQ weapon. Arguably one of the best.

I like the mag extension, and I've bored many here droning on about it, but once more...

A two shot extension weighs about 7 oz, and cuts felt recoil all by itself maybe 6%. A three shot, maybe 9%. Also, a barrel clamped tightly to an extension acts as a stiffener, and making the barrel vibrations more uniform,thus aids accuracy.
I've become quite a booster of this for slug shooting. 5 inch 50 yd groups became 3" or less. The extra weight forward aids the balance and handling,but still very fast in trained cool hands. These may be more important in a crisis than a few more rounds till empty.

After that,what you need is sights you can see, and a reasonable trigger pull, not heavier than 5 lbs. Many 870s come close to that from the factory,BTW. A bead sight works fine.For low light, I've been known to paint them up with Testor's Enamel, Bright Yellow. Quite visible to me in low light.

The HD shotguns here have peep sights, because they're nearly ideal deer guns for the swamps and woodlots I hunt. Close action, within 50 yards most of the time,sometimes fast. There's a handful of old shotgun tags downstairs for evidence, if need be.

If this HD shotgun should moonlight out of the house for hunting or target practice, I'd get a set of sling studs. There's times I want both hands free.

Other than that, and assuming(Yeah,right,I know) reasonably good stock fit, the equipment is ready. So, go practice(G)....

DAVID NANCARROW · June 28, 2001, 06:20 AM

So true, Eric. Watched a totally moronic DA years ago attempting to discredit a friend of mine in a courtroom. An incident developed where my friend was chased out of a bar and nearly a mile to his property by a half a dozen deadbeats. Warned repeatedly to leave his property, my friend finally grabbed a British Enfield and fired a warning shot into the ground from his front porch and advised the group the sherriff had been called. The lawman arrived an hour later, and confiscated the rifle. Nothing modified on the weapon except for an NRA decal on the buttstock, but the DA held the rifle high in the air, pointed to the NRA sticker, and told the jury what a bloodthirsty person my friend was. It didn't make any points with the jury, as it was a small country town where most folks hunt and fish, but I can imagine what would have happened to my friend should his trial been in a big city. The warning shot was probably not the smartest thing he did, but it got the BG's attention and they did leave the property-quickly!

Dave McC · June 28, 2001, 06:44 AM

Law and the massive ignorance most people these days have concerning firearms boggle minds regularly. I'm gonna post a new thread describing something that happened to me just to illuminate
what folks may have to go through and some pitfalls.

June 21, 2001, 07:09 PM	#1
AC's & 45's Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2000 Location: Mid, Mo Posts: 403	Home Defense 870 Does Remington still make the 870 Home Defense model? I don't see it listed on their website. I am looking for a short, legal replacement barrel that will match my Express's matte finish. I don't want to modify my full size barrel. I want to build my own custom home defense 870. I am partial to a bead or no front sight for this purpose. I am not even sure a " Home Defense 870" barrel will even fit my Express receiver. I once heard that the HD 870 was built around the "Special Purpose" model. Correct me if I am wrong but, I don't beleive the Express, and Special Purpose are interchangable. This is my new project. I just inherited my Dad's old model Wingmaster. Now I don't see the rather ugly Express doin much hunting or clay bustin. It has found a new purpose in life. __________________ Common sense is not something you can aquire. You must be born with it. So, you either have it or you don't!

June 21, 2001, 08:48 PM	#2
rugerfreak Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2001 Posts: 819	It's still there on the website----Go to the express shotguns-----says Exp Syn then 18in barrel underneath it. All 870's are interchangeable within guage---with the possible exceptions of the Super Mag and the LT 20????. The 870 HD is part of the Express line. The problem with the newer Express's for defense use is the magazine tube---there are indentations in it that make it hard to increase magazine capacity. Mossberg makes some reasonably priced barrels for the 870 too. Last edited by rugerfreak; June 21, 2001 at 09:18 PM.

June 22, 2001, 04:00 PM	#4
ljlcdl Member Join Date: July 9, 2000 Posts: 80	"DO use a bead sight or whatever, if it comes to ligitation post-crisis you don't want to give the opposition anything to pick at." If you miss your target your sights won't matter in court, you still missed. If you hit your target, it won't matter in court. Use a bead sight because the purpose of shooting is to hit the target and the bead sight helps. Get over this "looking bad in court" stuff. Very little of it corresponds to reality or comes from credible sources. (Nothing personal, Dave. Just an empirical observation.) ljlc __________________ ljlc

June 23, 2001, 12:27 PM	#9
STEVE M Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: TN. USA Posts: 607	Dave, thanks for the first hand experiance, sorry you had to go through it though. I get tired of people saying that the legal problems that we are warned about never happen. My own feeling has always been better safe than sorry (sorta why I carry a gun to begin with __________________ MOLON LABE! I've joined the 300.

June 26, 2001, 02:06 PM	#11
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Saw 870 HDs at my local gun show this weekend for $279. Also saw something I hadn't seen before--a factory installed magazine extension on an 870 HD. I think those were going for $299. I almost picked one up, but the store that had them was local, so I may just pay a visit to that shop and look around. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

June 22, 2001, 06:48 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	AC, The Express and Special Purpose models,and almost all 870s, are interchangeable within gauge. The SPECIAL FIELD, a variant attempt to produce an upland shotgun, has some parts that do not interchange, including bbls. I think that's what you're thinking of. And kudoes for not cutting down your Dad's Wingmaster. I did that, and regret it bitterly ever since. OTOH, many police oriented gun shops have old riot bbls lying around, a few phone calls may find you one in decent condition with a finish that matches your heirloom. DO use a bead sight or whatever, if it comes to ligitation post-crisis you don't want to give the opposition anything to pick at. Besides, HD shotguns get aimed for best results.

June 23, 2001, 03:51 AM	#5
Josh Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Posts: 77	ljlcdl, I'm not sure in a home defense situation that a bead sight would make any difference with respect to ligitation. I agree with you that one should stack the odds in his favor and don't give the DA anything to use but as I see it you are either justified using deadly force or you aren't. If you have a bead or not and you are not justified using DF then you are in a real bad fix. If you are justified the only thing you have to worry about is the civil sharks coming after you.

June 23, 2001, 04:50 AM	#6
ArmedPatriot Member Join Date: May 18, 2001 Posts: 33	I've got an 870 Express with the rifle sights, and I've left the range with a blue-green shoulder enough times that I'm confident of what shots I can take and what shots I can't. If anyone tries anything stupid in my house, they'll leave feet first. Having said that, I would NEVER engage a target in an unjustified, or even questionable situation. However, if the time comes, I'll respond to the threat and have a clear and precise explanation for each round fired. From a legal standpoint, it can only help if you can cite professional training in marksmanship, tactics, and the legal aspect of defending yourself and your property. The 870 is an excellent HD weapon. In addition to creating the world's single scariest sound in a dark room (ka-chick-chunck), it's as deadly a close-range weapon as you'll ever need. Check your patterns at 7, 10, and 25m with your load of choice -- practice, practice, and practice some more -- and you're ready for all but the hardest targets. Body armor won't stop a head shot, and with 00 buck you're moving about as much lead per second as an automatic weapon. Back to the original topic, I haven't done the tactical shotgun thing with other sight patterns, but if it's good enough to bag a fast bird (or clay) at 25-50m or more, it sure oughtta work in HD situations with slower moving targets at far closer ranges... - AP

June 23, 2001, 08:38 AM	#7
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	How about instead of buying a riot barrel, buy a 20" rifle sighted barrel instead. Remington makes them in IC and rifled, at HD distances choke doesnt matter and the rifle sights will look better in court. "Your honor, I heard my door being broken in, so I grabbed my deer gun and went to see what was going on." I doubt a prosecutor could turn your deer gun around on you, but they could have lots of fun if you used a "riot" barrel. You can also get an 8 shot extension instead of 7. Kharn

June 23, 2001, 09:25 AM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	ljlcdl. the last time I was in Federal Court,and in Md Criminal Court also,the opposition wanted to bring in everything.They cited my rural upbringing as "Proof" I was a bigot,my longtime interest in target shooting as "Proof" I was just aching to kill somebody(Preferably a minority group member inferred), and my military service as "Proof" I was another wacked out Vet with problems.BTW, the incident leading to all of this involved no firearms, having been dealt with inside a prison, and not outside or on the perimeter. My personal atty is a former Asst State's Atty and also a former PD.His advice included not giving them anything at all to build on,or a diversion. He did say that when in court, one's whole life is subject to scrutiny, and how well one defends oneself includes the legal stuff also. For the Fed case, my expert witness list included two psychologists,a forensic pathologist and a Asst Prof of Law. Point is, one doesn't give the opposition ANYTHING.

June 23, 2001, 08:25 PM	#10
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	Just to chime in, the 20" IC barrel is a fine idea (current police 870s are shipped with IC), but the rifled barrel is not a good idea with shot of any kind. You'll get a pattern that is very eratic and in a defensive situation you are likely either to hit something you didn't mean to or to fail to hit something that the defense emergency demands you hit forthwith. At typical civilian defensive ranges, pattern matters a lot and yes, the shotgun needs to be aimed. For defensive purposes, stick with a smoothbore.

June 27, 2001, 01:02 PM	#12
AC's & 45's Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2000 Location: Mid, Mo Posts: 403	I'd like to come across one of those factory extensions. Looks like I may go with the Advanced technologies extention. What do you guys reccommend for extrensions various other and tactical accessories? __________________ Common sense is not something you can aquire. You must be born with it. So, you either have it or you don't!

June 27, 2001, 01:20 PM	#13
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	All this litigation stuff is exactly why I have a bone stock 870 Express with nothing added and nothing removed. If 4 loads of 3 inch 00 Buck doesn't get it done, my 45 is right next to me with 4 loaded mags, also stock except a replacement barrel bushing. No night sights, no flashlight hanging off the end, no red dots, no extensions, no ghost rings. My modified stuff is all locked up in the safe.

June 27, 2001, 02:24 PM	#14
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	Easy to take care of. The flashlight is hand held rather than mounted to the firearm, and a person taking a shot at anything they are not certain of should face consequences.

June 27, 2001, 02:35 PM	#15
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	AC,I suggest going slow on the addons. A stock short barreled 870 right out of the box is a terrific CQ weapon. Arguably one of the best. I like the mag extension, and I've bored many here droning on about it, but once more... A two shot extension weighs about 7 oz, and cuts felt recoil all by itself maybe 6%. A three shot, maybe 9%. Also, a barrel clamped tightly to an extension acts as a stiffener, and making the barrel vibrations more uniform,thus aids accuracy. I've become quite a booster of this for slug shooting. 5 inch 50 yd groups became 3" or less. The extra weight forward aids the balance and handling,but still very fast in trained cool hands. These may be more important in a crisis than a few more rounds till empty. After that,what you need is sights you can see, and a reasonable trigger pull, not heavier than 5 lbs. Many 870s come close to that from the factory,BTW. A bead sight works fine.For low light, I've been known to paint them up with Testor's Enamel, Bright Yellow. Quite visible to me in low light. The HD shotguns here have peep sights, because they're nearly ideal deer guns for the swamps and woodlots I hunt. Close action, within 50 yards most of the time,sometimes fast. There's a handful of old shotgun tags downstairs for evidence, if need be. If this HD shotgun should moonlight out of the house for hunting or target practice, I'd get a set of sling studs. There's times I want both hands free. Other than that, and assuming(Yeah,right,I know) reasonably good stock fit, the equipment is ready. So, go practice(G)....

June 28, 2001, 06:20 AM	#16
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	So true, Eric. Watched a totally moronic DA years ago attempting to discredit a friend of mine in a courtroom. An incident developed where my friend was chased out of a bar and nearly a mile to his property by a half a dozen deadbeats. Warned repeatedly to leave his property, my friend finally grabbed a British Enfield and fired a warning shot into the ground from his front porch and advised the group the sherriff had been called. The lawman arrived an hour later, and confiscated the rifle. Nothing modified on the weapon except for an NRA decal on the buttstock, but the DA held the rifle high in the air, pointed to the NRA sticker, and told the jury what a bloodthirsty person my friend was. It didn't make any points with the jury, as it was a small country town where most folks hunt and fish, but I can imagine what would have happened to my friend should his trial been in a big city. The warning shot was probably not the smartest thing he did, but it got the BG's attention and they did leave the property-quickly!

June 28, 2001, 06:44 AM	#17
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Law and the massive ignorance most people these days have concerning firearms boggle minds regularly. I'm gonna post a new thread describing something that happened to me just to illuminate what folks may have to go through and some pitfalls.