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December 21, 2009, 08:06 PM | #51 | |
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There are several problems with trying to use this as the basis for any type of doctrine:
The only thing I think we should really take away from the Tueller Drill is that an adversary armed with a contact-weapon is dangerous from much farther away than many might think. As a result, we should seek to maximize the reactionary gap, or be prepared to utilize other skillsets (empty-hand combatives, etc.) to manage the threat until we can cleanly access our pistol. Assuming that we're actually going to have 1.5 seconds (or whatever) is, to me, making assumptions that are not necessarily supported by reality. Back to the OP, this is even more reason not to handicap ourselves by carrying with an empty chamber. Doing so is just dumb.
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December 21, 2009, 08:28 PM | #52 |
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One can talk theory all day. What would really be helpful, especially to the naysayers, is a study of many actual cases of civilian CCW responders to a threat, the outcome , and the method of carry.
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December 21, 2009, 08:51 PM | #53 | |
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Rare events happen. Your violent encounter could be statistical anomaly, but that won't make it any less serious to you. |
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December 21, 2009, 08:59 PM | #54 |
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guy in the video didn't look like he trained much. no offense to the dead, but he did not look confident in his abilities with his firearm at all. training could have made all the difference in that situation.
He could have emptied his mag into those guys before they even got to him
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December 21, 2009, 09:08 PM | #55 |
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I always carry fully loaded.
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December 21, 2009, 10:17 PM | #56 |
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However, heres a great reason for badguys to carry unchambered.
It at least give "some" people a split second chance (not this guy) http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8a_1261187213&p=1 |
December 21, 2009, 11:24 PM | #57 | |
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Seriously, he unholstered the pistol in a classroom, held it up, and talked big-guy about how he was the only person in the room with the training to be able to carry that weapon. I'm sure his intentions were in the right place with a "scared straight" message but the showboating... ahem... backfired. Last edited by Cruncher Block; December 21, 2009 at 11:29 PM. |
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December 22, 2009, 02:23 AM | #58 |
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First time, I ever carried, it was with an empty chamber. It was a something of a psychological decision, I didn't really have any sort of rationale behind it, other than it somehow "felt" dangerous.
That was also the last time I carried with an empty chamber. Figured, what if I only had one free hand when a situation arose? Furthermore, with my pistol at the time, the slide was on the stiff side... easily workable when practicing, but couldn't trust myself to do it in a high-stress situation. Figured if you know your gun, and how to carry it safely, carrying with one in chamber is plenty safe. On top of that, it gives you one more round, which is particularly nice if you have a gun that doesn't have all that large a capacity. Always better to have one more. Also, I don't think that carrying with a +1 is restricted to fancy, expensive guns. There's plenty of pistols out there in the 300's, 200's and even below $200 that are safe to carry with one in the chamber.
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December 22, 2009, 04:16 AM | #59 |
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Always Carry With One In The Chamber
I am with the ones on here who see no good reason to carry a sidearm with an empty chamber, possibly excepting a gun that would be prone to AD if dropped or bumped. My answer to that is to get rid of it and get a better quality firearm for daily carry.
If it really makes you feel better, then do as you please. It is your decision and your life that may hang in the balance for such a nonsensical habit. Please, however, do not try and force your preference on those who carry with one in the pipe. I have two friends who, as I and most of my friends do, ALWAYS carry with one in the pipe. One has a brother who occasionally shares a residence with him and who has this fetish about carrying his SIG P-226 with an empty chamber. Both are in the Security field. What infuriates my friend (and rightfully so) is that his "empty chamber" brother will find his sidearm and examine it. Nothing wrong there but when he is finished examining it, he always leaves it where he found it with an empty chamber. That friend found himself in a deadly force situation about six months ago and thankfully, his chamber was loaded. Had his brother done his idiotic trick of leaving the gun with an empty chamber and my friend not had the presence of mind to find it before going on duty, he might be dead as he would not have had the opportunity to chamber a round. There is no way under his circumstances that he could have done this and gotten off a round in time to save himself. Another friend's father is, as with that friend, an exceptionally bright and intelligent person. When his son gifted him with a GP-100 a few years ago, the father insisted on observing the archaic practice of carrying the gun on an empty chamber. Mind you, this guy is far more mechanically inclined and talented than I will ever dream of being, but he treated the gun as though it were a single-action Colt from yesteryear, even after having the folly of this explained to him. After several years of having this point hammered by my friend, he is finally carrying it with all six chambers loaded. What is maddening, is that my friend has to remember to check his Glock 20 or Springfield 1911 any time his dad and he have been shooting or otherwise looking at guns because his dad does that same thoughtless trick of leaving his son's gun with an empty chamber, even though he knows his son does not carry with an empty chamber. Father or not, my friend has been much nicer about it than I would have been had ANYONE done this to me. What his father is not thinking about is that he may well sign his son's death warrant by leaving him with an empty-chambered gun if he finds himself in the same or similar situation as my friend the security officer did. Again, if you want to carry with an empty chamber, do whatever makes you happy. Just don't endanger the lives of friends or especially family by being so thoughtless as to leave their gun with an empty chamber and not telling them. Last edited by GrigoriRasputin; December 22, 2009 at 04:19 AM. Reason: correct spelling error |
December 22, 2009, 07:08 AM | #60 | |
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Hunter Girl, said
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Especially with LEOs, and easier to gain this information for the Police, as they document each shooting. Did not some famous scholar not say "Those who do not study History are bound to repeat it?" Hunter Girl, if you did this study, one of the first lessons would be, IMHO do not carry chamber empty, I think! |
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December 22, 2009, 07:10 AM | #61 |
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Note that nowhere in my posting have I argued that you should not carry any handgun with a loaded chamber, but rather I am arguing that chamber empty many not be such a bad idea.
First of all, I have to qualify that by saying that it only work with certain handguns, by which I mean racking the slide and chambering is easy with some automatics, nearly impossible with others. And as for the comment that working the slide is difficult (because it takes two hands) and operating the safety is easy (because it only takes one thumb), well, that doesn't follow. Operating the slide is a gross motor skill, flicking off the safety is a fine motor skill. But I assume you make up for that by using an after market safety. I was surprised that another mentioned how easy the slide was to work on a Glock but I don't think a Government Model is at all difficult unless it has been refinished and is slick. As for those comments about attempting to work the slide one handed, well, I agree, I don't think I could do that under the best of circumstances. At any rate I'm glad Rasputin is willing to allow us to do as we please. And again please note, I am not forcing anyone to do as I wish but defending those who wish to do as they wish.
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December 22, 2009, 07:40 AM | #62 | ||
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(Kinda like turn signals: If I signal every time, even turning into the garage, then I won't forget to signal when it's important.) Quote:
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December 22, 2009, 08:07 AM | #63 | |
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Since I assume all guns are loaded as one of the great general rules of firearm safety anyway, it's simplest....to just carry that way. Maybe others assume all firearms aren't loaded, and they carry like that. Seems like a simplistic fundamental approach to safety might be the difference of opinion.
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December 22, 2009, 08:18 AM | #64 |
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Well, does your Government Model have a standard safety or not? That's all I'm asking. And also, I can't believe that someone would leave their handgun where it was accessible to anyone else. Say it ain't so.
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December 22, 2009, 08:21 AM | #65 | |
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Don't worry about who can get to my firearms, what I said was "I assume every firearm is loaded and carry that way", I didn't say all the guns in the house are loaded, yes it has the standard safety on it that came on it. Same as my double barrels, and when quail hunting, I load that gun and trust the safety.
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December 22, 2009, 10:27 AM | #66 |
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KenpoTex Post 51
Agree on all points, but the 0-3 yards stat has to do with the shooting distance rather than the distance at which one may be able to detect real danger.
If I draw and (have to) fire at someone charging from 20 to 25 yards away he will surely be less than ten feet away before I fire--and I'm going to be moving, to the side if possible, at that point. If one does get into such a situation and the shooter's case is called into question, I imagine that one side might argue that the Tueller distance was an important factor and the other side might argue that it was not applicable. |
December 22, 2009, 11:08 AM | #67 | ||
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The Colt tear drop safety that has been original equipment on Colt 1911s for a whole lot of years is also very easy to use (I have several Colts with such a safety and with which I practice extensively.). If you're thinking of the old style "small tab" safety, that hasn't been original equipment on 1911s (except for a few models intending to reproduce the original military 1911 or 1911A1) for a great many years. Last edited by Frank Ettin; December 22, 2009 at 12:41 PM. |
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December 22, 2009, 11:11 AM | #68 | |
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In fact, I routinely hear folks here say that a pump shotgun is the best gun for home defense.....and many add that they like the "cha-chink" factor. Well, this indicates that for home defense that many of the shotgun folks don't keep a round chambered either. I'm just pointing out that not everyone who owsn a gun should be made to feel defenseless just because they don't keep a round chambered in their gun. |
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December 22, 2009, 01:27 PM | #69 | |
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It is very possible, with proper situational awareness, to pick up on a potential threat at that distance or beyond. I'm just saying that in many cases, you may not have that luxury and won't have indication that an attack is imminent until the BG has encroached much further.
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December 22, 2009, 01:35 PM | #70 | |
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I'd like to comment further on one thing, and then I'm done:
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Since I'm human, my SA is not always perfect, which is why I carry the gun. In case things go pear-shaped while I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong, I'd like to be able to shoot my way to safety and I might not have both hands available to get my heater into play. |
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December 22, 2009, 01:56 PM | #71 |
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Let us hope the chamber empty advocates never have to fight off an attacker while drawing. Oh wait, I forget, they're all ninjas who never let another human get within 10 feet of them. Ninjas who are scared of their guns for no reason, but still...
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December 22, 2009, 03:30 PM | #72 | |
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December 22, 2009, 05:00 PM | #73 |
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I have an Astra A75 (EAA) compact .40. Sig design. It has a decocker lever, but no safety. I would be afraid it could discharge if dropped. Thoughts?
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December 22, 2009, 05:40 PM | #74 | |
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But seriously, I'd do some research on that particular gun and see if it is built with some means to prevent discharge if dropped or if it has passed drop tests in states that require it. I believe California is one such state.
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December 22, 2009, 07:31 PM | #75 | |
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